Solution to the whole covenant problem.

[Seranthor]

Well because right now its tuned by having stats and spells only gained by long grinding. It will also likely be tuned around bis covenants,/soul binds / leggos as well.

If we can't seperate these systems mythic will just become more and more of a burden. Now I think a better solution would be to cut these systems out of mythic but the argument can be made to simply lower the tuning.

So you want something but you dont want to make the commitment to get it.

[Krakan]

So you want something but you dont want to make the commitment to get it.

It's something I've done for thirteen years... are we really going to try and play the whole " just grind more because dats what raiderz do" thing again?

There is ever more senseless mindless grinding being added for the fill the bar boys. At what point can the orginal audience not simply say " fuck off with that shit?"

It has nothing to do with our game mode. The content it drags us into is so mindlessly boring you put on another form of entertainment like a audio book or a movie while doing it.

At some point I simply want to stop one shotting world mobs to fill some random bar so johnny lfr can feel special.

I mean how absurd is it that these systems developed for the lowest level players I'm told has 0 effect on their gameplay but somehow it's cool that it greatly effects and hinders the very top end?

What kind of sense does that make?

[Seranthor]

It's something I've done for thirteen years... are we really going to try and play the whole " just grind more because dats what raiderz do" thing again?

There is ever more senseless mindless grinding being added for the fill the bar boys. At what point can the orginal audience not simply say " fuck off with that shit?"

It has nothing to do with our game mode. The content it drags us into is so mindlessly boring you put on another form of entertainment like a audio book or a movie while doing it.

At some point I simply want to stop one shotting world mobs to fill some random bar so johnny lfr can feel special.

I mean how absurd is it that these systems developed for the lowest level players I'm told has 0 effect on their gameplay but somehow it's cool that it greatly effects and hinders the very top end?

What kind of sense does that make?

I dont care if you've done it for 13 years. Blizzard doesn't give Dewey buttons.

If you want the benefits of another covenant the answer is easy... do the work to get it.

You dont need to be carrying anyone... but you dont deserve to be carried either.

[temple1906]

I dont care if you've done it for 13 years. Blizzard doesn't give Dewey buttons.

If you want the benefits of another covenant the answer is easy... do the work to get it.

You dont need to be carrying anyone... but you dont deserve to be carried either.

You are missing the point entirely. Mythic raiding is essentially an entirely different game at this point. He is saying that it doesn't make sense to make people that enjoy Mythic raiding do tons of content that they do not enjoy doing just so that they can do the content that they actually like. It does not affect anybody else in the game to make Mythic only settings for player power. What does it matter to you if he and his guild can step foot into Mythic on launch day without having to have done an insane amount of grinding to stand a chance? It doesn't. It has no effect on you whatsoever. It does not detract from the content that you want to do at all. It does not make your choices less meaningful. It simply eases the burden on the top end of players so that they can enjoy the content they like without feeling like they have to do the content they don't like. How would you like if you were in their shoes?

[Seranthor]

You are missing the point entirely. Mythic raiding is essentially an entirely different game at this point. He is saying that it doesn't make sense to make people that enjoy Mythic raiding do tons of content that they do not enjoy doing just so that they can do the content that they actually like. It does not affect anybody else in the game to make Mythic only settings for player power. What does it matter to you if he and his guild can step foot into Mythic on launch day without having to have done an insane amount of grinding to stand a chance? It doesn't. It has no effect on you whatsoever. It does not detract from the content that you want to do at all. It does not make your choices less meaningful. It simply eases the burden on the top end of players so that they can enjoy the content they like without feeling like they have to do the content they don't like. How would you like if you were in their shoes?

I absolutely understand what he wants... what you nor he appear to understand is if you want X... then you have to make the commitment to get X. Besides, he tipped his hand in his OP, and due to the fact he wants to take something from others because they want to play the game a different way from him, I'm inclined to give him nothing, no quarter at all.

[Krakan]

I absolutely understand what he wants... what you nor he appear to understand is if you want X... then you have to make the commitment to get X. Besides, he tipped his hand in his OP.

What do you mean tipped my hand? I clearly laid out what I wanted... this isn't some sly trick. I'm tired of one shotting mobs for hours to fill a bar or unlock a talent at level cap.

[temple1906]

I absolutely understand what he wants... what you nor he appear to understand is if you want X... then you have to make the commitment to get X. Besides, he tipped his hand in his OP, and due to the fact he wants to take something from others because they want to play the game a different way from him, I'm inclined to give him nothing, no quarter at all.

Nobody has any problem with making commitment to get something. Don't act like having to grind 4 characters of the same class so that you can have the ability you need for any given fight in Mythic is reasonable. It isn't. It's not about "commitment" at this point. Nobody is proposing taking literally anything away from anyone else. What is anyone saying should be taken away from other players? Most of the suggestions I have seen is giving Mythic raiders an option in the instance to select their Covenant abilities by using tomes, that only works in Mythic. That doesn't take anything away from anyone but gives these players what they want. What is the problem with that? That YOU don't feel like they've earned it enough despite them still needing to farm the gear and whatever other grinds are available? Do you even raid Mythic?

[Seranthor]

What do you mean tipped my hand? I clearly laid out what I wanted... this isn't some sly trick. I'm tired of one shotting mobs for hours to fill a bar or unlock a talent at level cap.

Then dont do it... It really is that simple...

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody has any problem with making commitment to get something. Don't act like having to grind 4 characters of the same class so that you can have the ability you need for any given fight in Mythic is reasonable. It isn't. It's not about "commitment" at this point. Nobody is proposing taking literally anything away from anyone else. What is anyone saying should be taken away from other players? Most of the suggestions I have seen is giving Mythic raiders an option in the instance to select their Covenant abilities by using tomes, that only works in Mythic. That doesn't take anything away from anyone but gives these players what they want. What is the problem with that? That YOU don't feel like they've earned it enough despite them still needing to farm the gear and whatever other grinds are available? Do you even raid Mythic?

You clearly didn't read his OP. And since you didn't, we really have nothing to discuss.

[CaptainV]

The covenant problem?

Honest answer, and I mean this none jokingly, remove them, completley, they are bad content and they wont last the test of time.

Id rather have, a new class, a new continent and some none gimmicky feature that gets forgotten/removed by patch .3 than have another garrison/class hall/ship campaign/artifact/azerite trait system.

I legit would *not* miss Covenants if they dissappeared for good, nor would I miss garrison style content, take us back to the pre MoP Era, Cata, when the content was basically new zones, new raids, new pvp bg's new races/new classes, and that was it.

Things that actually last the test of time as opposed to things that will be meaningless when it passes.

Lets be honest:

9.3 we will get a 5th covenant, likely the brokers, who will probably be the final covenant in the game adding a new set of abilities for us to play with and some sub feature around covenants.

10.0 we will get some prepatch around covenants no longer being valid and go back to Azeroth.

[Sunslayer]

You are missing the point entirely. Mythic raiding is essentially an entirely different game at this point. He is saying that it doesn't make sense to make people that enjoy Mythic raiding do tons of content that they do not enjoy doing just so that they can do the content that they actually like. It does not affect anybody else in the game to make Mythic only settings for player power. What does it matter to you if he and his guild can step foot into Mythic on launch day without having to have done an insane amount of grinding to stand a chance? It doesn't. It has no effect on you whatsoever. It does not detract from the content that you want to do at all. It does not make your choices less meaningful. It simply eases the burden on the top end of players so that they can enjoy the content they like without feeling like they have to do the content they don't like. How would you like if you were in their shoes?

What you said about Mythic raiding being a different game at this point is dead on. I'll add that Gladiator arena is also a different game as is pushing +20 keys. I tried Mythic raiding and realized as a Heroic raider (I find Heroic raids to be fairly relaxed) I stepped into Mythic and it's like I switched games. The amount of effort and expected production was insane so I decided, with my job (salary Chef) it's beyond my time allowance. However, I really respect Mythic raiders for their dedication. I'm stuck sort of in the limbo area of regular/elite.

[temple1906]

What you said about Mythic raiding being a different game at this point is dead on. I'll add that Gladiator arena is also a different game as is pushing +20 keys. I tried Mythic raiding and realized as a Heroic raider (I find Heroic raids to be fairly relaxed) I stepped into Mythic and it's like I switched games. The amount of effort and expected production was insane so I decided, with my job (salary Chef) it's beyond my time allowance. However, I really respect Mythic raiders for their dedication. I'm stuck sort of in the limbo area of regular/elite.

And that is TOTALLY fine! But we all need to stop pretending that we are all playing the same game! If someone wants to push Gladiator, +20, or Mythic Raids they are in many ways playing an entirely different game, with different expectations, and a different playstyle. Give these players the tools to easily optimize and legitimize those parts of the game. Then leave everything as is for the players in the middle to lower tiers of content. Nobody doing Heroic raiding is going to expect the level of optimization that Mythic raiders go after because Mythic raiders will no longer even HAVE TO.

[Sunslayer]

What you said about Mythic raiding being a different game at this point is dead on. I'll add that Gladiator arena is also a different game as is pushing +20 keys. I tried Mythic raiding and realized as a Heroic raider (I find Heroic raids to be fairly relaxed) I stepped into Mythic and it's like I switched games. The amount of effort and expected production was insane so I decided, with my job (salary Chef) it's beyond my time allowance. However, I really respect Mythic raiders for their dedication. I'm stuck sort of in the limbo area of regular/elite.

Hear, Hear! Couldn't agree more.
Edit: I'd like to add that the only reason I can't raid Mythic is time. They spend every waking moment in game bettering their character. I wish Mythic was skill alone but it isn't, it's about time spent doing every inch of the game for the slightest advantage.
A little back story; I raided high end TBC and Wrath and what made you an Elite Raider was skill alone. Gear was gear the rest was on you. Now there are so many systems on systems to make unreachable for the average player due the enormous amount of time dedication. Case in point is Nazjatar: to raid Mythic you are expected to endlessly farm gear for the best stats and a socket...for every part piece. It's insane. Before you just got your BiS and did your thing, it was more skill based. Today's WoW is time based. Today's WoW high end game is not healthy.

[temple1906]

Hear, Hear! Couldn't agree more.
Edit: I'd like to add that the only reason I can't raid Mythic is time. They spend every waking moment in game bettering their character. I wish Mythic was skill alone but it isn't, it's about time spent doing every inch of the game for the slightest advantage.
A little back story; I raided high end TBC and Wrath and what made you an Elite Raider was skill alone. Gear was gear the rest was on you. Now there are so many systems on systems to make unreachable for the average player due the enormous amount of time dedication. Case in point is Nazjatar: to raid Mythic you are expected to endlessly farm gear for the best stats and a socket...for every part piece. It's insane. Before you just got your BiS and did your thing, it was more skill based. Today's WoW is time based. Today's WoW high end game is not healthy.

That BS from 8.2 is actually what made me quit Mythic and unsub from the game. It's just ridiculous now. You are right that it is unhealthy, but Blizzard wants those sweet sweet MAUs.

[Mouri Kogorou]

i like this solution

[Seranthor]

i like this solution

Except its Blizzard's game, they can do anything they want. Even experimenting with new systems

[Sunslayer]

Except its Blizzard's game, they can do anything they want. Even experimenting with new systems

Experimenting with new systems? What planet do you live on? Do you think Covenants arent the same awful systems they've been shoving down our throats? Do you not see this is all the same crap? Meanwhile, they ignore the fact that WoW talents have been total crap for nearly a decade. They REFUSE to balance talents. "Look at the silly monkey" (south park, look it up). The game and class design still suck. Nothing has changed, just fancy window dressing that forces players to try and create a "Mr Potato-head" class or spec that isn't total trash designed BY Blizzard

[Malikath]

Except its Blizzard's game, they can do anything they want. Even experimenting with new systems

nah, they've failed everytime they've tried this shit, and have failed repeatedly to deliver a complete product.
With Bobby looking towards being fired and sued, maybe it's time people considered who at blizzard should face the block soon, no?

[Seranthor]

Experimenting with new systems? What planet do you live on? Do you think Covenants arent the same awful systems they've been shoving down our throats? Do you not see this is all the same crap? Meanwhile, they ignore the fact that WoW talents have been total crap for nearly a decade. They REFUSE to balance talents. "Look at the silly monkey" (south park, look it up). The game and class design still suck. Nothing has changed, just fancy window dressing that forces players to try and create a "Mr Potato-head" class or spec that isn't total trash designed BY Blizzard

I've been following my own advice about this for years... If you aren't happy with what Blizzard is doing, then hit them where it hurts, in the wallet.

[Sunslayer]

I've been following my own advice about this for years... If you aren't happy with what Blizzard is doing, then hit them where it hurts, in the wallet.

And we agree there. I have not purchased BfA. I am hoping beyond hope to come back for Shadowlands but damn they are making it hard to justify that with their direction in Shadowlands. WoW is like a drug in some ways, I miss it. I miss my friends although every single person on my real ID has quit. I still speak with them as we still talk and I wished things looked better for our possible reunion. When Shadowlands was first announced we spoke a lot as the excitement grew. Day by day more drop off as they realize that this is just the same crap with a different dressing which sucks cause I do miss WoW. I have never been as good at a game as I have been at WoW.

[temple1906]

Except its Blizzard's game, they can do anything they want. Even experimenting with new systems

That doesn't make it the right thing to do or the smart thing to do.