Solution to the whole covenant problem.

[Luxeley]

With the exception of PvP and a few other small problems (legion legendaries), the game has been pretty well balanced for 10+ years. The problem is people whose bar for "balanced" is absurdly high and is fueled by obsessive compulsive issues rather than genuine desire to play the game.

I speak mainly from a Pvp perspective so we agree to agree there. As far as balance in Pve, from top to bottom in avg. dps the gap is 25%-30% which in my opinion is ridiculously huge. It's possible my expectations are not in line with others, but I strongly believe the gap should be no less than 15%.

[NineSpine]

I speak mainly from a Pvp perspective so we agree to agree there. As far as balance in Pve, from top to bottom in avg. dps the gap is 25%-30% which in my opinion is ridiculously huge. It's possible my expectations are not in line with others, but I strongly believe the gap should be no less than 15%.

What is that difference based on though?

[Sunslayer]

I speak mainly from a Pvp perspective so we agree to agree there. As far as balance in Pve, from top to bottom in avg. dps the gap is 25%-30% which in my opinion is ridiculously huge. It's possible my expectations are not in line with others, but I strongly believe the gap should be no less than 15%.

Worst part is, it's always the same specs the very bottom. Sure, they move around a little and get some time middle of the pack before going back to the bottom. But, it's still same specs win and lose every xpac. Nothing really changes.

[NineSpine]

Worst part is, it's always the same specs the very bottom. Sure, they move around a little and get some time middle of the pack before going back to the bottom. But, it's still same specs win and lose every xpac. Nothing really changes.

But where are those numbers coming from?

[Krakan]

With the exception of PvP and a few other small problems (legion legendaries), the game has been pretty well balanced for 10+ years. The problem is people whose bar for "balanced" is absurdly high and is fueled by obsessive compulsive issues rather than genuine desire to play the game.

Well for the most part in recent years every class has had at least one spec viable for raiding... at least for the most part but that isnt really all that glowing of a review.

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What is that difference based on though?

I can answer this.

It's mostly single target damage. It is very rare that aoe matters and its exceedingly rare specs that excel at single target dont excel at cleave to.

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But where are those numbers coming from?

Thousands upon thousands of logs submitted by players.

[NineSpine]

Well for the most part in recent years every class has had at least one spec viable for raiding... at least for the most part but that isnt really all that glowing of a review.

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I can answer this.

It's mostly single target damage. It is very rare that aoe matters and its exceedingly rare specs that excel at single target dont excel at cleave to.

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Thousands upon thousands of logs submitted by players.

Have you considered that logs submitted by players, which is going to filter for certain types of players and groups, might not be a very solid representation of how something performs across the board?

[Krakan]

Have you considered that logs submitted by players, which is going to filter for certain types of players and groups, might not be a very solid representation of how something performs across the board?

How would it not be?

The only thing a log cant really track is utility power but if a class/spec is considered to weak no one every brings it the odds of it being a hidden powerhouse is nil.

Even then these logs cover mythic to lfr... there isn't really a gray area with the data.

[NineSpine]

How would it not be?

The only thing a log cant really track is utility power but if a class/spec is considered to weak no one every brings it the odds of it being a hidden powerhouse is nil.

Even then these logs cover mythic to lfr... there isn't really a gray area with the data.

What controls are used to make sure that the logs adequately represent the playerbase? For example, what is done to ensure the logs are only 1% the top 1% and 1% the bottom 1%?

[Zyky]

Don't think there's a problem.

You clearly don't play any aspect of the game at a respectable level then.

[NineSpine]

You clearly don't play any aspect of the game at a respectable level then.

Nobody cares about your elitist dribble.

[Krakan]

What controls are used to make sure that the logs adequately represent the playerbase? For example, what is done to ensure the logs are only 1% the top 1% and 1% the bottom 1%?

I'm not sure what you mean by this... the logs are self submitted and extremely time consuming to fake. Everything is self reported you just get raw data...

You can filter them by ilv and see how the player stacks up with others in their bracket if that is what you mean?

[Luxeley]

What is that difference based on though?

It's purely subjective, then again, you can't tell me raiders or M+ players don't regularly seek a certain spec over another. And, as long as that exists, then the finger directly points at the dps gap being too high and 30% is way too high.

[NineSpine]

I'm not sure what you mean by this... the logs are self submitted and extremely time consuming to fake. Everything is self reported you just get raw data...

You can filter them by ilv and see how the player stacks up with others in their bracket if that is what you mean?

The latter is partially what I am interested in, but ultimately what I am saying is that I am not really interested if the top 1% of skill level players sees a huge difference but nobody else does, and there are all kinds of other problems with just randomly submitted data like this. This is not how stats work.

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It's purely subjective, then again, you can't tell me raiders or M+ players don't regularly seek a certain spec over another. And, as long as that exists, then the finger directly points at the dps gap being too high and 30% is way too high.

I just don't particualarly CARE if the game is not balanced at the extreme ends. It's not important.

[Sunslayer]

But where are those numbers coming from?

Ugghh...DPS meters? Logs...

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Nobody cares about your elitist dribble.

I don't see his comment as "elitist". Any sort of content that isn't WQ and LFR uses meters. If you are calling my sister-in-law that raids Heroic and plays WoW about 10 hours a week an "Elitist" I'd be damn confused.

[NineSpine]

Ugghh...DPS meters? Logs...

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I don't see his comment as "elitist". Any sort of content that isn't WQ and LFR uses meters. If you are calling my sister-in-law that raids Heroic and plays WoW about 10 hours a week an "Elitist" I'd be damn confused.

Does she dismiss opinions as not valid because they are expressed by someones whose accomplishments in the talking panda video game aren't "respectable"? If so, shes an elitist.

[Krakan]

The latter is partially what I am interested in, but ultimately what I am saying is that I am not really interested if the top 1% of skill level players sees a huge difference but nobody else does, and there are all kinds of other problems with just randomly submitted data like this. This is not how stats work.

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I just don't particualarly CARE if the game is not balanced at the extreme ends. It's not important.

The differences are rather stark even at the lowest levels of content.

[EyeOculus]

Saying: "there is no choice because covenant X is best." is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Nobody forces you to pick the best one. Only yourself. So don't complain about it.

I'm gonna enjoy the tears of simulation elitist that just going to complain all day everyday because a different covenant would give them now a 0.9% increase in damage.

[NineSpine]

The differences are rather stark even at the lowest levels of content.

Looking at medians on warcraftlogs, the median score of the top performing spec and the bottom performing spec show a difference of about 25%. However, that spec (fire mage) is a bit of an outlier. The next median and the bottom show a difference of about 15%. That's... really not that big, and given the data gathering methods here is damn near a margin of error.

[Krakan]

Saying: "there is no choice because covenant X is best." is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Nobody forces you to pick the best one. Only yourself. So don't complain about it.

I'm gonna enjoy the tears of simulation elitist that just going to complain all day everyday because a different covenant would give them now a 0.9% increase in damage.

It's likely going to be closer to 15%...

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Looking at medians on warcraftlogs, the median score of the top performing spec and the bottom performing spec show a difference of about 25%. However, that spec (fire mage) is a bit of an outlier. The next median and the bottom show a difference of about 15%. That's... really not that big, and given the data gathering methods here is damn near a margin of error.

What specs are you comparing? some dont register from there being just to few logs at times.

I would argue 15% in content that is extremely tightly tuned is rather massive but different perspectives.

[NineSpine]

It's likely going to be closer to 15%...

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What specs are you comparing? some dont register from there being just to few logs at times.

I would argue 15% in content that is extremely tightly tuned is rather massive but different perspectives.

I'm comparing all DPS specs.

15% is obviously a lot in extremely tightly tuned content, but an expectation of something better than that is extremely unrealistic. It's only potentially feasible if you say "We are ONLY going to balance at this level. We are ONLY taking into account players of this skill level". The type of balancing we are talking about is not uniform, and you can see that in warcraft logs. Things only start to line up at the highest levels of performance. At the lower levels, it's all over the place and much more normalized.

In other words, what you are asking for is for Blizzard to balance the game explicitly around the people trying to exploit the game as much as possible, and that just isn't good game design and isn't a realistic expectation. The problem here, as I see it, is that Blizzard is specifically designing content of a difficulty level so high that the expectation is to engage in that level of min maxing. The only solution is honestly easier content.