Do people actually believe that RPG means story and cosmetic only?

[ClassicPeon]

Game developers decide what is or is not RPG. They are the ones making them.

Who are you to set rules?
There's nothing to win here for me. I'm fine with you believing that there's no definition or that it's wrong. It is irrelevant. If you can demonstrate how RPG in "your" definition (and you need to tell us your definition) requires stats on loot - that would be awesome. If you don't - and you don't want me to explain to you what RPG is - just stop replying to me. It's that easy.

Jesus christ man.

Who are you to set rules?

I'm saying there ISNT an official definition. Because there ISNT.

I've asked you to provide proof of your obviously wrong claim but you cant.

The fact that you say "game developers decide what is or is not RPG" is hilarious. Do you really think they have meetings cross corporations to decide what their official definition of an RPG is?

And you also do realise that game developers arent the people who originally came up with the idea of RPG's right?

THere os literally so much wrong in your thought process here i cant be assed to go through everything. So this has to suffice for now.

[Soluna]

Well prefering a melee in the party if its full of ranged is pretty standard. Thats nothing to do with class specificly but to do with the difference between melee and ranged in m+(specificly interrupts).

How nice of you to cut and sew your argument towards a single specific reason I might get declined, when the over-arching reason is because I am actually a warlock. #
Do you know what's the interrupt timer of a hunter and a warlock? Both are 24 seconds. Did you even read my whole comment? People decline me because I am a warlock quite often, and that's cause I am not a damn FotM in MDI or high key clears, as if any of that matters when you do a 15-20.

You can deny it as much as you like, but I've been declined by hundreds, if not thousands of keys, where I've asked what was the reason, and the majority of them told me it's cause my class 'sucks' in their opinion, or they've only seen bad warlocks, etc, and it's very rare that it's cause of interrupting, as yet again, these enemies get destroyed before they can a chance to do anything (very rare exceptions exist, nothing a couple of interrupts and some stuns cannot fix tho). And many times have I convinced a leader by fucking begging them to death to take me to a key, cause I just want a damn weekly done and I don't want to bother my high key pushing friends for it, and then what do I see? Any dps combo of: DH, Rogue, BM and DK, a warrior/paladin tank, and holy paladin healer. Literally every group ever.

[caractacus]

Zelda is a good example. It's not an RPG it's an adventure game but it does have elements that it shares with RPG's

[melzas]

Here we are living in a society that tries (and mostly fails) to teach people NOT to judge, to ACCEPT those who are different etc and we get a game that preaches day and night that if you are not as same as the next guy and if you do not obey the community standards as set by arbitrary systems you do not belong in that community and you can be ostracized/humiliated and more.

Best part, the game literally TEACHES this behavior to children and teenagers. Don't be different because optimal. Optimal might mean like 100 dps more at times but hey we cannot have someone standing out and being different let alone having fun playing their way. No sir. Rest assured this behavior and mentality in games finds its way into real life.

Well, I see no reason to try to deny the reality. You either go with optimal builds - talent choices, stay and gearing choices, specs and in extreme situations even class choices or you expose yourself to be left out, ignored and sometimes even bullied and ridiculed. No amount of crying and denying will change that. Of course if you have thick enough skin you can play whatever you want, but if you get declined 15th time in a row from joining m+ group because you like to play underdog spec with funny talents, you can only blame yourself.

That's why I said meaningful character choices only work in single player games, because your entertainment doesn't depend on whether or not other players accept your choices, and you can purely go with what you enjoy for whatever reason.

[Elim Garak]

Jesus christ man.



I'm saying there ISNT an official definition. Because there ISNT.

I've asked you to provide proof of your obviously wrong claim but you cant.

The fact that you say "game developers decide what is or is not RPG" is hilarious. Do you really think they have meetings cross corporations to decide what their official definition of an RPG is?

And you also do realise that game developers arent the people who originally came up with the idea of RPG's right?

THere os literally so much wrong in your thought process here i cant be assed to go through everything. So this has to suffice for now.

You can be as snarky as you want but until you start providing info rather than demanding it - this is not going anywhere

To reiterate:
There is an industry-standard definition of RPG, you can google it
Game developers (in the past: game makers) defined it, doesn't matter who exactly coined the R.P.G. or used it first.
No, they don't hold cross corporation meetings on stuff that has already been established decades ago, this stuff is taught in colleges even. There are no doubts about the well-established genres' definitions.

[ClassicPeon]

How nice of you to cut and sew your argument towards a single specific reason I might get declined, when the over-arching reason is because I am actually a warlock. #
Do you know what's the interrupt timer of a hunter and a warlock? Both are 24 seconds. Did you even read my whole comment? People decline me because I am a warlock quite often, and that's cause I am not a damn FotM in MDI or high key clears, as if any of that matters when you do a 15-20.

You can deny it as much as you like, but I've been declined by hundreds, if not thousands of keys, where I've asked what was the reason, and the majority of them told me it's cause my class 'sucks' in their opinion, or they've only seen bad warlocks, etc, and it's very rare that it's cause of interrupting, as yet again, these enemies get destroyed before they can a chance to do anything (very rare exceptions exist, nothing a couple of interrupts and some stuns cannot fix tho). And many times have I convinced a leader by fucking begging them to death to take me to a key, cause I just want a damn weekly done and I don't want to bother my high key pushing friends for it, and then what do I see? Any dps combo of: DH, Rogue, BM and DK, a warrior/paladin tank, and holy paladin healer. Literally every group ever.

I read your argument but its not the experience i have. Dont know what to tell you :/

I'm not sure why you are talking about interrupt timers. I literally said some groups prefer melees because they have shorter ineterrupt timers, especiallty if they already have 2 ranged on a team.

I often get declined to groups on my DH because the group simply wants something else.

There is no guarantee that you will get into a group just because you sign for it. There are a number of reason why people decline others. If i'm doing a +15 i never decline anyone based on class or spec. A +15 is well within the difficulty range of any class/spec/talent choice to be on board.

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You can be as snarky as you want but until you start providing info rather than demanding it - this is not going anywhere

To reiterate:
There is an industry-standard definition of RPG, you can google it
Game developers (in the past: game makers) defined it, doesn't matter who exactly coined the R.P.G. or used it first.
No, they don't hold cross corporation meetings on stuff that has already been established decades ago, this stuff is taught in colleges even. There are no doubts about the well-established genres' definitions.

Actually thats not how it works.

You are the one claiming something exists, so you have the burden of proof. You cant proove a negative.

You are making claims, but you have absolutely nothing to back it up with, and i know for a fact you dont have a clue what you are talking about. I'l keep biting because its interesting to see what corner you will end up in.

[Soluna]

I read your argument but its not the experience i have. Dont know what to tell you :/

I'm not sure why you are talking about interrupt timers. I literally said some groups prefer melees because they have shorter ineterrupt timers, especiallty if they already have 2 ranged on a team.

I often get declined to groups on my DH because the group simply wants something else.

There is no guarantee that you will get into a group just because you sign for it. There are a number of reason why people decline others. If i'm doing a +15 i never decline anyone based on class or spec. A +15 is well within the difficulty range of any class/spec/talent choice to be on board.

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While I believe that you most likely had a different experience, I am curious enough to always ask a short explanation for being declined when I meet all their requirements (dungeon already done on same or higher difficulty, cause I don't like pushing with pugs, being much higher ilvl than they need, having higher rio than they need, etc), and usually it's just the 'warlock' reply.

The reason I am bringing up timers is because I've literally been told on a non skittish week that they'd rather get a hunter than me, so the interrupt argument is not an excuse in such scenarios. In groups where I whisper and I see a shadow priest/moonkin leader, I obviously understand that having a very long cd on interrupt for them + my not so short felhunter interrupt too is not ideal. Doable, but not ideal. Anyway, it doesn't matter, and leaders obviously prefer certain classes over others, it's the rule of most pugs.

[Yarathir]

All I'm getting from the responses to the "meaningful choices" comment is that people are playing the wrong game entirely. Get over it, it's a ROLE-playing game. Every choice you make in an RPG has impact and they're designing the Covenants with that intent foremost. Wanna play a game where it's all about performance? Go play Wildstar, oh wait... It flopped because of that very reason. :')

I, personally, look forward to Blizzard backtracking in 8.2 or 8.3 and then making a blogpost about how they regret their choices with the Covenants and learned a lot of important lessons from it.

And frankly, it will work out because most people here don't ever learn any lessons and just follow what Ion said. Even now, they're just blindly parroting him without thinking critically about it.

Even funnier to me is the fact that people think that putting single player RPG mechanics works in an MMORPG where you have to to cooperate with others who have to agree to play with you and can refuse to play with you for any reason.

[ClassicPeon]

While I believe that you most likely had a different experience, I am curious enough to always ask a short explanation for being declined when I meet all their requirements (dungeon already done on same or higher difficulty, cause I don't like pushing with pugs, being much higher ilvl than they need, having higher rio than they need, etc), and usually it's just the 'warlock' reply.

The reason I am bringing up timers is because I've literally been told on a non skittish week that they'd rather get a hunter than me, so the interrupt argument is not an excuse in such scenarios. In groups where I whisper and I see a shadow priest/moonkin leader, I obviously understand that having a very long cd on interrupt for them + my not so short felhunter interrupt too is not ideal. Doable, but not ideal. Anyway, it doesn't matter, and leaders obviously prefer certain classes over others, it's the rule of most pugs.

This is true. Pug leaders can do whatever pug leaders will do. I'm not sure thats something blizzard should think about when making stuff though. Its a shortcoming of the community imo.

Cant say i've had the same expereince though. The thing i've experienced most is that there are way lower expectations from a tank/healer perspective when it comes to class/ilvl then there is from dps.

[Yarathir]

"Meaningful RPG choices." or whatever exact term Ion is trotting out right now is just Shadowland's equivalent of the biennial meme Blizzard's team comes up with each expansion development cycle to justify their poorly thought out decisions that they just want to cram down the community's throats because "It sounded good in concept."

[ClassicPeon]

"Meaningful RPG choices." or whatever exact term Ion is trotting out right now is just Shadowland's equivalent of the biennial meme Blizzard's team comes up with each expansion development cycle to justify their poorly thought out decisions that they just want to cram down the community's throats because "It sounded good in concept."

You realize they dont need an excuse right? Which invalidates your entire premise

[Yarathir]

You realize they dont need an excuse right? Which invalidates your entire premise

True. They could, right now, at this very point, return everyone to level 1 and turn every mob into a world boss level enemy and permanently lock in all talents you opt into without so much as a whisper.

That's not really the argument, though, is it?

[ClassicPeon]

True. They could, right now, at this very point, return everyone to level 1 and turn every mob into a world boss level enemy and permanently lock in all talents you opt into without so much as a whisper.

That's not really the argument, though, is it?

Ion is trotting out right now is just Shadowland's equivalent of the biennial meme Blizzard's team comes up with each expansion development cycle to justify their poorly thought out decisions

Sure seems like it

[Wakozi123]

Because you also have the high end raiding scene in the game and Covenants and their powers are extremely important for them. You need a balanced system for them too because if x guild gets a kill only because they have x Covenant, while the other guild doesn't have x Covenant, then how exactly is this a fair world first race?

And please don't argue with "Who cares about world first races?" Because that would be the same as "Who cares about the RPG in the game?"

[Yarathir]

Sure seems like it

Do you have any interest of engaging?

Answering this honestly will probably save me some time.

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Because you also have the high end raiding scene in the game and Covenants and their powers are extremely important for them. You need a balanced system for them too because if x guild gets a kill only because they have x Covenant, while the other guild doesn't have x Covenant, then how exactly is this a fair world first race?

And please don't argue with "Who cares about world first races?" Because that would be the same as "Who cares about the RPG in the game?"

You don't get it. This is only important for world first raiders, it won't affect you.

Y-yes I've played in the last 5 years.. and never been rejected from uh.. a minthic.. plus? -Obviously.

[Adoxe]

The days of building your character completely from scratch are long gone for most people, even games like Witcher have the "best build" that people gravitate towards for harder difficulties.

[Yarathir]

The days of building your character completely from scratch are long gone for most people, even games like Witcher have the "best build" that people gravitate towards for harder difficulties.

Probably true. But picking a build for fun and not sheer result is a little less daunting in the Witcher as well, since it's not a game where you need essentially the approval of fellow players to be able to tackle any content beyond world quests.

[ClassicPeon]

Do you have any interest of engaging?

Answering this honestly will probably save me some time.

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You don't get it. This is only important for world first raiders, it won't affect you.

Y-yes I've played in the last 5 years.. and never been rejected from uh.. a minthic.. plus? -Obviously.

I am engaging tho. You are just dodging oO

[Wakozi123]

You don't get it. This is only important for world first raiders, it won't affect you.

Y-yes I've played in the last 5 years.. and never been rejected from uh.. a minthic.. plus? -Obviously.

What are you even saying? Wasn't the original argument that it should not be normal to "change" your play style every 5 minutes? How exactly is it only important for world first raiders? I am 12/12 as well and playing with my optimal setup is just as important for me as it is for them...

So my argument of being locked to a Covenant is still the same. Also: "Y-yes I've played in the last 5 years.. and never been rejected from uh.. a minthic.. plus? -Obviously." What? I literally have no idea what you are trying to say

[Cosmic Janitor]

What are you even saying? Wasn't the original argument that it should not be normal to "change" your play style every 5 minutes? How exactly is it only important for world first raiders? I am 12/12 as well and playing with my optimal setup is just as important for me as it is for them...

So my argument of being locked to a Covenant is still the same. Also: "Y-yes I've played in the last 5 years.. and never been rejected from uh.. a minthic.. plus? -Obviously." What? I literally have no idea what you are trying to say

He is taking the piss at people that obviously haven't even looted an m+ key let alone tried to play one.