havoc Demon hunters , a dead 1 button class?

[pacotaco]

I really don't think Demon hunter should be an "Easy" class. It's a hero class you have to unlock by player another class to a certain level before you can even create one, which means new players are probably not going to touch Demon Hunter right away, as they're still learning their first choice, same with Death Knights. I don't know, probably just personal preference, but I personally think the hero classes should be the more challenging classes. Then again, there's no difficulty left in playing a class, since the majority of our power comes from borrowed, outside sources so... Doesn't really matter in the end atm.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that in SL they changed it and all 12 classes are available from the start.

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There is nothing stopping you from playing that way. The spec is still there.

Higher skill ceiling with similar performance to Demonic. If Blizzard wants it to compete with Demonic, they must change it to perform much better that Demonic at its highest.
That how it's suposed to work: harder to play, good performance / easier to play, mediocre performance. You mess with that and you end with builds noone plays.

[tristannarutofan]

mmm well i dont really see much of a difference between pushing 3 different buttons once each per 3 seconds and pushing 1 button 3 times in 3 seconds. I mean basically speaking rogue rotation is 111112 over and over with putting in your buff every 40 seconds and random procs.

but unless its very different from live i think you are missing something? Like you got glaive toss, vengeful retreat, the chaos explosion thing, the infernal thing, and blade dance.

demon hunter is the class where you get all these situational abilities and you pick which ones you want to use more. are those talents gone? or are you maybe using a simple build?

but most classes have a spammable 'auto attack' ability. frostbolt, sinister strike, shred. and you got to also remember that probably dealing with low haste.

problem with is with all the hyperbole there is no possible way to discuss anything with you without being able to go on the beta itself and test it. So you should go back to your original post and edit it so you actually say what your options are. Like i hear 9 second blade dance and just thinkg "well after you rush in should use that the second you have enough energy and then you will be doing other stuff while it coolsdown.

at least on live , I pull with glaive, which is only balanced to be worth it on rotation if there are 3 or more enemies, but fine for pulling, use my blade rush to charge, do the chaos explosion and blade dance (talent into the extra dmg and single target dmg) and that gives me like 2 or 3 seconds of using chaos strike and shred or whatever.

oh yea and eyebeam

where do eyebeam, the infernal thing, the explosion thing fall into this?

[Razi80]

To all those saying DH is middle pack dps.

Just check the first 3 pages of top dps for M+ on Warcraft logs and raider.io: 99,9% are only DH, mages and rogues.

[Sefer]

To all those saying DH is middle pack dps.

Just check the first 3 pages of top dps for M+ on Warcraft logs and raider.io: 99,9% are only DH, mages and rogues.

Seems like you forgot hunters

[Steelangel]

It's way more difficult to catch and kill a WW monk than a dh in the open world

That double roll is killer, but WW go down like paper if you catch them. DHs do not.

[Athulua]

Nah, it's just haste getting nerfed to the ground.
If you are currently running a haste stacking spec and managed to get 70% unbuffed with Corruptions, then topped it off with 3x Overwhelming Power, Vita trinket and Galecaller's Boon then yeah, going into Shadowlands will be a very, VERY rough landing to end up with almost nothing at level 60.

And this is true for pretty much any spec in the game.

Losing haste always sucked. Tbh they should just un-tie GCD from haste and make 1s baseline for all specs, 0,75s with hero (the current floor is 0,75)

[idnn]

DHs are not top DPS in PvE. The reason why many people think DH's are broken is that most people are bad and play in bad groups. Ofc easy class will wreck when the ones playing the hard classes cannot play them to their full potential; the balance is actually quite fine in top tier groups. If the shitty DH can play his class to 90 % of the full potential and the shitty other dpses only play their classes to 70 % of their full potential, that's gonna make a huge difference. Only 1 DH is usually brought to raid for the magic debuff, last MDI rarely had any DH's etc.

TLDR; there are better classes than DH in PvE, but in bad groups DH's seem broken because the other DPSes are clueless while the DH has easy time playing to almost full potential.

I have no experience from pvp in BfA, so can't say anything about that.

maybe not in farmraids anymore but for progress they are one of the tops

[Nefarious Tea]

That double roll is killer, but WW go down like paper if you catch them. DHs do not.

We clearly fight much different DH's.

[Garymorilix]

That's the complete opposite of keeping it simple.
You basically remove any kind of survivability while making a channeled ability more complex, and adding 2 new different mechanics.
All that while not dealing with the current "problem" of have the same abilities for ST and MT.

The real "problem" with DH is that it gives the semblance of being too strong, but it actually isn't. It just has a low skill ceiling, but that ceiling is in the middle of the pack. Meanwhile most of the other classes have a high skill ceiling, but the ceilings are also above. If mayority of people have low playing skills, that makes most of the classes performing similar to DHs, but doing lees dmg.

I think the current direction is in the good way:
- Reduce a bit of the automatic-survivability (less dmg reduction on blur, less leech, no dodge on blade dance) while keeping the one that requires player action.
- Reduce the AoE dmg of the abilities, making full dmg to the main target and reducing the dmg done to others in the area.
- Improve overall fury generation.

All of that rises the skill ceiling without having to butcher the class completly.

My whole point was introducing abilities that focused on either single or multi target.
This is still leagues simpler than anything else in the game. "I have X stacks, do i use ST spender or AoE spender" is not a hard decision to make, is it? But it forces a decision which makes it at least a bit more interesting than "just spam blade dance on CD".

I logged into my DH and even if I take every single active ability my action bars are half empty. That's how non-existing DH gameplay is.

I did not say I wouldn't make it more complex but the skill floor is so fuckin low now it's limiting design and balance.
Unless you can have a massive dps difference between DH's and other classes then DH's are simply better to take. Simple as that.
Massive means like 10-15%+.

I'm not saying that other classes aren't capable of pulling off DH dps. But the amount of effort required for that dps plus all the utility PLUS the 5% magic dmg debuff is too much.

[facefist]

maybe not in farmraids anymore but for progress they are one of the tops

World first N'zoth - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Queen Azshara - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Jaina - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first G'huun - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Argus - 1 DH
World first Kil'jaeden - 0 DH

We need to go 7 raids back to see more than one DH in a raid for the first time in world first kill.

For the whole BfA, there has never been more than 1 DH in the raid for the world first, and it is quite obvious that the DH is taken for the magic damage buff. I'm not trying to say DH's suck, but the dude was trying to claim that they are top DPS in PvE and that is bullshit. There are classes that have, for a long time, been actually top in raids (esp. mage) and DH is far from being broken. If anything DH's are in quite decent spot atm in PvE - I would say they are above average but not close to the top classes in terms of DPS/usability.

It's still just a bias because he probably plays in a rather low-tier guild, where easy-to-play classes tend to dominate damage meters.

[idnn]

World first N'zoth - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Queen Azshara - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Jaina - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first G'huun - 1 DH (for the debuff)
World first Argus - 1 DH
World first Kil'jaeden - 0 DH
and the list goes on..

For the whole BfA, there has never been more than 1 DH in the raid for the world first, and it is quite obvious that the DH is taken for the magic damage buff. I'm not trying to say DH's suck, but the dude was trying to claim that they are top DPS in PvE and that is bullshit. There are classes that have, for a long time, been actually top in raids (esp. mage) and DH is far from being broken. If anything DH's are in quite decent spot atm in PvE - I would say they are above average but still not close to the top.

this has more to do with DH being a Melee

[spalernTJ]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I had the impression that in SL they changed it and all 12 classes are available from the start.

Still doesn't change the fact they were created to be an easy class to play.

[Lilsamee]

OK, so Blade Dance is already a 9.0 sec CD. Not sure what the crying is there. Demonic Window lost a whole 2 seconds, so you will still maybe fit 2 Death Sweeps in. \

I agree Nemesis is a joke. Reminds me of the old tier 1 survival hunter ability, not this crap. Removing Shadow Blades was the biggest injustice done to the class. Looks like they still want this class to play the same (Hulk smash! every 30 seconds), but not do as much dps as they currently do.

you wont be able to fit in 2 death sweeps. if blade dance is even on 7 second cooldown and u go into demonic u cant even fit 1.

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To all those saying DH is middle pack dps.

Just check the first 3 pages of top dps for M+ on Warcraft logs and raider.io: 99,9% are only DH, mages and rogues.

its because of borrowed powers.

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maybe not in farmraids anymore but for progress they are one of the tops

thats the issue that worries me. in progress we always perform good coz we're a class that doesnt scale much with gear , once people have enough gear the only way to keep up is borrowed powers. we will be lucky to outdps a tank in shadowlands if things dont change, mark my words.

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this has more to do with DH being a Melee

so there are better melee classes, which means dh arent in a good spot in world firsts

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Still doesn't change the fact they were created to be an easy class to play.

easy to play class doesnt mean being boring. it was an easy spec in bfa but far from boring. keep in mind we have 1 dps spec, 2 useless endrow talents that will never be picked, and the only 1 we used to pick gets nerfed.

[LanToaster]

Is it really so awful if there was a class that was easy to play? Think if it like the anti-feral class.

They introduced Demon Hunter as an easy to play class, it was never meant to be complex and Blizzard stated as much. Also there are trade offs for having the most mobility in the game.

This thread is not about how easy it is, or how complex it should be. DH right now is fine, its fun, and by far its neither complex nor hard to play.

The thing is, DH relies on its insane tempo to be fun. In legion you had your Legendary that provides you with a ton of Tempo, and in BFA you have your Azerite Traits for that.

If you strip that away, the Class doesnt become Easier, or Harder, just plain Boring.

The irony is hilarious.

Anyway, at cost of likely wasting my time with the likes of you, DH are doing exactly what they are meant and intended to do - easy and fun class. You won't see any rocket science complexity there ever, because the declared intent for the class by Blizzard is to be easy and accessible. They straight up said so.

Its funny that you didnt even read the Post, or understoof it. Its not about how DHs work right now, think about it. If they would just slow the playstyle of any class by half or more, it would feel sluggish and boring.

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That beeing said, I dont have Beta access, so I just have to take OPs word for it, that basically the only change is, that you dont have your Tempo anymore, and I agree that would be pretty boring.

[spalernTJ]

easy to play class doesnt mean being boring. it was an easy spec in bfa but far from boring. keep in mind we have 1 dps spec, 2 useless endrow talents that will never be picked, and the only 1 we used to pick gets nerfed.

I never said they were boring, neither did I say they were fun, I cannot relate as I have played it much myself - All I am saying is, it feels weird that one of the easiest classes in the game, is not available to new players, before they're level 100, and I feel like classes that has to be unlocked by players progressing through the game, should offer more engaging gameplay. Havoc Demon hunters, as is, feels like the lazy man's class.

[DemonDays]

They introduced Demon Hunter as an easy to play class, it was never meant to be complex and Blizzard stated as much. Also there are trade offs for having the most mobility in the game.

If you think any class in WoW is "hard" to play then yikes you're going to struggle with any other game on the market.

They're all a joke now. Zero complexity or nuance. Most DPS specs are a basic builder spender.



Havoc looks trash in Shadowlands. You would have expected them to get some new abilities as every other class got "un-pruned"(even though the unpruning was a joke).

Havoc relies far too much on borrowed power. It's propped up by Azerite Traits and it was propped up by Legendaries and its Artifact.

[pacotaco]

I never said they were boring, neither did I say they were fun, I cannot relate as I have played it much myself - All I am saying is, it feels weird that one of the easiest classes in the game, is not available to new players, before they're level 100, and I feel like classes that has to be unlocked by players progressing through the game, should offer more engaging gameplay. Havoc Demon hunters, as is, feels like the lazy man's class.

And I repeat again, that (if I'm not wrong) in Shadowlands, you won't need to unlock any classes, they are all playable from the get go. So the argument about an unlockable class having to be more complex/hard to play have no place anymore, because there are no unlockable classes anymore.

[spalernTJ]

And I repeat again, that (if I'm not wrong) in Shadowlands, you won't need to unlock any classes, they are all playable from the get go. So the argument about an unlockable class having to be more complex/hard to play have no place anymore, because there are no unlockable classes anymore.

And once again, the class was still designed this way, it is still the case. Yes, it's fine if they change it when Shadowlands hits, but Havoc demon hunter was still designed to be a very easy spec to play, that you couldn't play unless you've already played something else. That original intention was (Still is) the issue in my opinion. It hasn't changed yet, if they end up deciding it won't change, then your statement won't matter. All we have is the current itteration.

[Capultro]

demon hunters are near perfect actually.they only need a ranged spec with bow or a dark magic and melee 2hand weapons spec for be full perfect class:easy and good for all.

[Lilsamee]

If you think any class in WoW is "hard" to play then yikes you're going to struggle with any other game on the market.

They're all a joke now. Zero complexity or nuance. Most DPS specs are a basic builder spender.



Havoc looks trash in Shadowlands. You would have expected them to get some new abilities as every other class got "un-pruned"(even though the unpruning was a joke).

Havoc relies far too much on borrowed power. It's propped up by Azerite Traits and it was propped up by Legendaries and its Artifact.

i do agree totally with everything you said. havoc is trash as fuck atm , and i dont see anyway its gona contend specs that scale with gear since we're limited now to chaos strike which does less dmg then a warrior revenge

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And once again, the class was still designed this way, it is still the case. Yes, it's fine if they change it when Shadowlands hits, but Havoc demon hunter was still designed to be a very easy spec to play, that you couldn't play unless you've already played something else. That original intention was (Still is) the issue in my opinion. It hasn't changed yet, if they end up deciding it won't change, then your statement won't matter. All we have is the current itteration.

theres no hard spec to start with. and again being an easy to play class doesnt mean it gets nerfed to the ground, or having it rely on borrowed powers , let alone the boring aspect this class has taken after all the nerfs and nothing new added.