Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Bigcountry11782]

I agree with you.It is sad to see you can get Mythic raid quality gear out of a Mythic+ Dungeon.Ya 15s are a bit difficult but you can clear them way easier than a Mythic Raid.considering the fact that only a small portion of the player base even gets to do Mythic raids.I for one hate Mythic dungeons.I thought they would be interesting when they first came out but they have turned into all you see in trade chat none stop 24 hours a day is wants to sell Mythic + this and Mythic+ that.Retail makes me sick right now.You don't see trade being trade anymore.No one selling alch,enchanting,you get the point.Trade chat just looks like a bunch a gold farmers have taken over the chat.In a way they have.I think the problem is you can run them over and over again.Its like raids.Stop letting people go back in and reclear.Lockouts need to be a thing again.It will stop this huge inflation of gold we are seeing from the top guilds and bring some normality back to the games economy.

[Advent]

I agree with you.It is sad to see you can get Mythic raid quality gear out of a Mythic+ Dungeon.Ya 15s are a bit difficult but you can clear them way easier than a Mythic Raid.considering the fact that only a small portion of the player base even gets to do Mythic raids.I for one hate Mythic dungeons.I thought they would be interesting when they first came out but they have turned into all you see in trade chat none stop 24 hours a day is wants to sell Mythic + this and Mythic+ that.Retail makes me sick right now.You don't see trade being trade anymore.No one selling alch,enchanting,you get the point.Trade chat just looks like a bunch a gold farmers have taken over the chat.In a way they have.I think the problem is you can run them over and over again.Its like raids.Stop letting people go back in and reclear.Lockouts need to be a thing again.It will stop this huge inflation of gold we are seeing from the top guilds and bring some normality back to the games economy.

The only way that happens definitively is if the wow token suddenly disappeared. Also, the moment you introduce a lockout to M+ is the moment it dies. But I guess at this point they can do whatever with it since it seems to be getting gutted anyway.

[Depakote]

Well it clearly serves a purpose, it gives an alternative/supplement to raiding. How does it damage the raiding community? And why should it take precedence?

Does anyone have numbers on how many do mythic+ and how many do mythic raiding? I am willing to bet the former is a larger segment of the population than the latter.

Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.

- - - Updated - - -

How about easy compared to current relevant content?

It was easy to gear up for. The content for the expansions was some of the hardest of that time. To suggest otherwise would make it seem like you didn't play the expansion.

[cozzri]

The actual reason was Arthas, coupled with the age of the game it's also why the playerbase declined after WOTLK. I cannot believe people are still struggling with this concept.

WOTLK Introduced burnout with Trial of the Crusader and Icecrown Citadel Raids. 10/25man raids was fine, karazan and zul'aman were very popular so adding 10 man to all raids was a solid move, and the hardmode toggle/breakpoints in Ulduar were amazing.

THEN the difficulty sliders and itemization started to be more convoluted... 10 man normal, 10 man heroic, 25 man normal, 25 man heroic; each with its own levels of loot; this compiled with the dumbing down of talents with Cataclysm prepatch did not sit well with a lot of people. Locking players into 1 talent tree was a hard transition met with much dismay; in fact it was so loathed that they scrapped it altogether for the current system introduced in MoP, which in all honestly, was quit a solid expansion.

WOTLK did a lot of things great... BUT.... towards the end the game changed, gearscore became standard because figuring out someone's value for a raid group became more tedious with so many versions of the same item.

[Advent]

Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.

He said alternative to raiding, the difference there is it's content you can progress in, parallel to raiding. People don't seem to like feeling like the rewards for the content they're doing is somehow inferior, particularly if it has some form of a challenge attached to it.

[tehealadin]

Why does there have to be an alternative gear method for raiding? You either raid or you don't. If you don't you shouldn't be able to get the gear.

Already been answered:

He said alternative to raiding, the difference there is it's content you can progress in, parallel to raiding. People don't seem to like feeling like the rewards for the content they're doing is somehow inferior, particularly if it has some form of a challenge attached to it.

I would just add when I said supplement, that is meant in that other opportunities to get gear to help you in raids if you are unlucky on raid night. Also I didn't say that there had to be, only that there is.

[Depakote]

Already been answered:



I would just add when I said supplement, that is meant in that other opportunities to get gear to help you in raids if you are unlucky on raid night. Also I didn't say that there had to be, only that there is.

You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.

[Advent]

You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.

It's not an answer because you say it is? That's not how debate or intelligent discussion works. Mythic+ is a legitimate progression path parallel to raiding, which means that if you liked dungeons before and don't enjoy large group content, you currently have the ability to have some form of progression in dungeons without "falling behind" everyone else simply because the only worthwhile content is raids. Those days are over, fortunately.

[Osmeric]

The problem with parallel progression paths is they all merge together into a single progression path, where you have to do all the parts or you fall behind.

Only if the reward from each part is suitable just for that part does this not become a problem.

[tehealadin]

You say that's an answer but it's really not. There's pvp and raiding, pick one or do both. Gearing isn't that hard, it just takes time. Bring back the Justice, Valor and Conquest points (though i think they're already bringing those back, unsure in what form and how they'll work) and let people buy the pieces of gear they want by grinding out points so they don't have to play the loot lottery. It's not that hard, it's just that Ion and the people under him have made it that way.

When I talked about it being answering, that was to direct you to Advent's post, you misread/misinterpreted my post, Advent corrected your misunderstanding/reading of the post.

However, I mean, there is this thing called mythic+...your post seems confused, you say there's pvp and raiding, as if that is it, as if mythic+ isn't a thing, you are posting in a thread about mythic+ and post as if it doesn't exist. Whether you want to acknowledge it is real, or whether you think it is ok or not doesn't change the objective, observable and demonstrable fact that it is in the game.

Its purpose it clearly as an alternative/supplement to raiding. Just because you don't think such a thing should exist doesn't therefore mean that mythic+ doesn't, or isn't serving this purpose, doesn't mean that it isn't. People who might have been trying to get involved in raiding, but are employed and maybe have families and struggle with the time commitments of a full on raiding guild now have an alternative, shorter content that is still challenging (sorry HC raiders, but I can't accept that HC raids are harder than high level mythic keys, with the exception of a few bosses the real challenge is just getting a team together and the potential time sink for a run/logistics of keeping a larger group together, which is not the same as challenging content) and has rewards based on that challenge.

You might not agree with this alternative/supplementary content (depending on how you play the game), but it is real and its intentions are clear. You don't need to like this, by all means come up with alternatives/justifications for scrapping it, but don't talk as if it isn't real just because you don't like it.

[munkeyinorbit]

When the discussion is the speed at which you can gear up from M+ vs Mythic raiding, yes it does matter. Especially considering that a lot of the azerite from the raid actually has the best traits on it.

Discussion is awesome but as you have obviously skipped what the issue is please stop .

It's a joke because you don't need to raid.

[Jester Joe]

Discussion is awesome but as you have obviously skipped what the issue is please stop .

It's a joke because you don't need to raid.

And you don't NEED to play the game. You don't NEED to do M+.

Like, what is this suppose to prove?
You could get 470 gear with corruption each week from the 5 mask vision run. Does that suddenly mean it isn't worth running M+?

Did you really feel the need to revive a discussion from a week ago to tell someone to "please stop" when it isn't a discussion anymore, just to not even make a point?

You never "needed" to raid. Raiding Mythic is suppose to be about the challenge, not just getting loot like some of you seem to care far too much about.

[Sámsa]

Those last 5 ilvl you can get from clearing mythic are huge. Especially the 485 rings and the 490 azerite pieces.

Together with the BIS traits you simply can not get elsewhere and the better itemization of the loot this makes for a significant difference.

But keep telling yourself that you can get equivalent or better gear from purely doing m+.

Sure you can farm faster for certain stats when wanting multiple gearsets or for things like leech/avoidance etc.

But pure BIS is still coming from mythic raids

[unbound]

The real problem with raids is that there is only progression in terms of gear.

You can skip LFR, but you will start with Normal. Once you clear that, you will do Heroic (Normal with a bit more damage and health...and maybe a few more mechanics) to give you the same gear with slightly better stats. Once you clear that, you will do Mythic (Normal with even more damage and health...and maybe a few more mechanics) to give you the same gear with more stats.

For most people, this is not really fun. And if you just join BfA now, there is only one raid. No one does earlier raids from this expansion except for xmogs and lols. This is simply a gear grind.

Mythic+, while entertaining for a little while, actually makes content exhaustion worse. The goal is to *race* through that content over and over and over again...to get the same gear you already have with slightly better stats.

And this is why Retail has no more than 2 million subs left (likely a good deal less). WoW didn't used to be a game that you played for a couple of months and cancel your sub. But Blizz, in its infinite laziness, has made the game that way. They don't really care though since they spend so little on WoW now, that the relatively low number of subs still translates to pretty big profits.

[Restors]

Instead of making it widely available via LFR?

And once again taking yet another shot on thoose players who enjoys LFR. How freaking hard is it for you people to let them be. Let them enjoy they way THEY want. No, they dont want to start min maxing, put time and effort into a bloody computer game. They want to log in, to have fun, to do something with their friends and log off.

If you want to take the battle between Mythic Raids vs M+, by all means... But it gets sickening to see thread after thread attacking the LFR people. Good for them, I'm glad blizzard introduced it in Cataclysm. No content should EVER be gated to "minor group of people". And good for them for getting few epic loots aswell. Use it, sell it, disenchant it, whatever. Good for them.

[tehealadin]

It's a joke because you don't need to raid.

Can you explain why you need to raid? I tend to just do it casually, though over lockdown I have done it more, 2-3 nights per week, not properly raided since TBC, so I am by no means anti raid, I don't begrudge people raiding, but no one has managed to explain to me, or from what I have seen made a compelling argument as to why nothing should parallel raiding in any way/why an alternative that isn't as time consuming in a single chunk of time is bad.

And to be clear, most of the arguments I have seen here (and I concede I haven't seen every page, so I could have missed some and got this skewed, if so I hold my hands up) tend to be trying to defend HC raiding, implying that it is/should be above mythic+, in my opinion high level m+ keys are harder than HC raiding, I think it is justified that high level m+ keys give better loot than most HC bosses.

And mythic raiding is still there, it still offers the best of the best gear and the highest challenge.

I know this will agitate some people, and I thought about not saying as not to inflame anyone, but I see an awful lot of people who aren't cut out for mythic raiding seeming threatened that whereas HC raiding was still better than running HC dungeons, there is now content that challenges it, and what they did lost some of its shine, that a chunk of this is people having their egos dented a bit, in the past saying they were a HC raider was a way to elevate themselves over other players, now something is here that makes it not as impressive, their ability to hold themselves above others has been compromised. These tend to be the people who talk about high level m+ keys as if they are a joke (I would be interested to see those peoples m+ progression), I am sure there are those who are farming really high keys on a regular basis and find like a +15 straight forward, but I don't think that is the case for most people, most people still need to bring their A game in a +15, it is still a challenge, and on certain weeks a really big challenge.

Now this isn't aimed at mythic raiders who are annoyed that the weekly chest offers gear of the same ilvl as most mythic bosses, while I do think that this isn't as big an issue as some make out, the weekly chest is seriously RNG heavy (I've only ever had 1 usable 475 item from the weekly out of god knows how many chests now, the rest is from raiding), the last 2 bosses offer the highest ilvl gear in the game, and many pieces are BiS in mythic raiding, so even if it has the same ilvl, that doesn't make the weekly one as good. Note I said I didn't think it was as big an issue as some people make out, I still have some sympathy with the complaint that it touches too close into mythic raiding territory.

[Wakozi123]

This is a difficult topic.

In my opinion, raids have never been more difficult than they are right now (I am a mythic raider. So when I talk about raids, I talk about the mythic level difficulty, not normal/hc/LFR) and I agree that there are too many difficulty levels. Personally, I would remove LFR and normal. This would basically result in heroic becoming normal and mythic becoming heroic.

I do understand when people say that they don't want to invest that much time into the game (or even don't have the time to begin with) and still want to see the raids, but at some point this kind of behavior changes to some form of entitlement, which I don't support. I would say the best approach to this whole topic is to keep LFR in the game, but literally have no gear rewards from it. So it is basically just for the story and that is it.

When it comes to the whole dungeon topic... A few years ago I would have said that you are right. Dungeons should be a stepping stone towards raids. Thus, the gear they give should never be better or even equal to raids. But this changed with M+. If you do really high level keys then it becomes just as challenging as doing raids. Maybe the solution here is to not stop with the max ilvl at 15 keys, but keep increasing it until lets say 20 keys. Obviously, the 20 keys here should be equal to what you get in mythic raids (with maybe the final boss of a mythic raid giving the highest item level in the game overall. Just like N'zoth does for example)

[Depakote]

When I talked about it being answering, that was to direct you to Advent's post, you misread/misinterpreted my post, Advent corrected your misunderstanding/reading of the post.

However, I mean, there is this thing called mythic+...your post seems confused, you say there's pvp and raiding, as if that is it, as if mythic+ isn't a thing, you are posting in a thread about mythic+ and post as if it doesn't exist. Whether you want to acknowledge it is real, or whether you think it is ok or not doesn't change the objective, observable and demonstrable fact that it is in the game.

Its purpose it clearly as an alternative/supplement to raiding. Just because you don't think such a thing should exist doesn't therefore mean that mythic+ doesn't, or isn't serving this purpose, doesn't mean that it isn't. People who might have been trying to get involved in raiding, but are employed and maybe have families and struggle with the time commitments of a full on raiding guild now have an alternative, shorter content that is still challenging (sorry HC raiders, but I can't accept that HC raids are harder than high level mythic keys, with the exception of a few bosses the real challenge is just getting a team together and the potential time sink for a run/logistics of keeping a larger group together, which is not the same as challenging content) and has rewards based on that challenge.

You might not agree with this alternative/supplementary content (depending on how you play the game), but it is real and its intentions are clear. You don't need to like this, by all means come up with alternatives/justifications for scrapping it, but don't talk as if it isn't real just because you don't like it.

You do dungeons of all types to gear, Mythic+ has just made things a bit more redundant and grindy in terms of gearing. The end goal is still the same. As for everything else you've said, it doesn't really make any sense so I don't think i'll bother replying to it.

[Laqweeta]

Remember "raid or die"? Well... now we're here.

How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?

[Sámsa]

How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?

With probably shit stats and sub optimal trinkets and azerite traits.
And you can not get your 480 azerite in 1 week.

Item level is not everything.

But sure you can get 470+ and still be bad