Horde Reparations

[Sluvs]

You mean the portal that Khadgar closed to avoid more orcs from coming in, by destroying the portal itself, which also caused the portal in Draenor to explode?


You mean returning them to their own world, risking restarting the whole "lok'tar ogar" party into Azeroth again?

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All we have there is Thrall's opinion of what would happen.

One possible option is that the news that Thrall having just stepped down from Horde leadership did not reach Alliance's ears yet, and captured what they thought to be the leader of the Horde.

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But the problem is that the idea that the orcs were "controlled" by the demons is weakened by the fact that the orcs have shown, more than once, how easy they fall to demonic corruption, willingly. During the Warcraft 3 orc campaigns, Grom Hellscream and his orcs willingly drink demon blood to gain an edge against Cenarius. And in Warlords of Draenor, again, the majority of the Iron Horde drinks the demon blood, willingly.

That is irrelevant because they were still under the influence of demons. So putting the blame on them it is still wrong, no matter how you try to twist it.

Not to mention that in war 3 they were tricked into drinking the blood, Mannoroth put it in a fountain of life and in WoD they were desperate because they were losing in every front. So neither of those situations really aply as willingly, since one they were tricked and the other they were driven by desperation.

[Minikin]

Nope, I'm saying eradication was the correct choice. Slavery was the wrong one. There was no sarcasm in my reply.

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Benidictus is a dungeon end boss. Maybe you should not lie about easily researchable facts.

The point is about optics. Maybe you should try to understand things before spouting off like a severed artery.

[Ielenia]

That is irrelevant because they were still under the influence of demons. So putting the blame on them it is still wrong, no matter how you try to twist it.

It doesn't matter if they were 'under the influence', because they still did it, and have shown to willingly do it again if given the option, and worse yet: Garrosh has shown that orcs do not need "demon influence" to do what they did in the first invasion of Azeroth.

Not to mention that in war 3 they were tricked into drinking the blood, Mannoroth put it in a fountain of life

From the WC3 ingame text:

Witch Doctor: That be it, mon! The dark energies I sense come from the pool!

Satyr: Foul orcs! The burning masters charged us with protecting this well! You are unworthy of drinking from these dark waters.

Grom: I don't know what you are or who you serve, but no one bars my way!

And then:

Witch Doctor: The pool emanates great power, but I smell the stench of a demon curse about it.
Grom Hellscream: I am cursed already! If I must drink from these waters to defeat Cenarius, then I will.
Warsong Orc: No! That goes against everything the warchief teaches us! We can't let rage overcome us again!
Grom Hellscream: No, warrior. We must embrace it as never before! We must become the vessels of destruction we were meant to be!

and in WoD they were desperate because they were losing in every front.

Were they desperate? Hellfire Citadel was the seat of their power and arguably the most well-defended. Plus the Iron Horde was never shown to be desperate. You're just assuming they were desperate.

So neither of those situations really aply as willingly, since one they were tricked and the other they were driven by desperation.

Both do apply, because that's exactly what happened: willingly acceptance of the curse.

[Minikin]

But this is not about laws, or treatises. It's about marginalizing a group of people to the point where they need to fight to be free. Enslave people for long enough and there will be a war because death is preferable to everlasting servitude.

I'm not discussing code of laws or anything like that.

While I do understand the need having a villain, IMO, blizzard relies too much on the "HORDE BAD" trope. They tend to use the same plot point several times in the same way. (MoP & BfA comes to mind) It's fine having the horde be the bad guy once in a while, but man, everytime? The horde can NEVER feel good about themselves, and it's annoying. I'm not saying the horde should not have conflict, what I am saying is that alliance should not be as reactionary as they are right now.

I don't disagree, I'm just explaining the cause and effect.

Hopefully the war council is the last of it because now they can no longer use the position of the warchief to push a story which eventually leads to the faction or the person in charge eating it.

It is pretty impossible to write a balanced story when it's focused on faction conflict if both sides are paying customers, because in a war there has to be a winner and as long as there are winners there must be losers.

Hopefully going forward they never open this waste of resources again and put effort in parts of the story that actually result in a meaningful start and end.

[qwerty123456]

That is irrelevant because they were still under the influence of demons. So putting the blame on them it is still wrong, no matter how you try to twist it.

Not to mention that in war 3 they were tricked into drinking the blood, Mannoroth put it in a fountain of life and in WoD they were desperate because they were losing in every front. So neither of those situations really aply as willingly, since one they were tricked and the other they were driven by desperation.

Then do you remove the blame for humans actions because they have been corrupted by old gods and the curse of flesh?

[Sluvs]

Then do you remove the blame for humans actions because they have been corrupted by old gods and the curse of flesh?

No, because the humans had free will when they enslaved the orcs. The curse of flesh made humans mortals and susceptible to corruption, but it did not corrupt them, they had free will. Unlike the orcs that were being controlled by the demons and did not have free will.

It doesn't matter if they were 'under the influence', because they still did it, and have shown to willingly do it again if given the option, and worse yet: Garrosh has shown that orcs do not need "demon influence" to do what they did in the first invasion of Azeroth.


From the WC3 ingame text:

Witch Doctor: That be it, mon! The dark energies I sense come from the pool!

Satyr: Foul orcs! The burning masters charged us with protecting this well! You are unworthy of drinking from these dark waters.

Grom: I don't know what you are or who you serve, but no one bars my way!

And then:

Witch Doctor: The pool emanates great power, but I smell the stench of a demon curse about it.
Grom Hellscream: I am cursed already! If I must drink from these waters to defeat Cenarius, then I will.
Warsong Orc: No! That goes against everything the warchief teaches us! We can't let rage overcome us again!
Grom Hellscream: No, warrior. We must embrace it as never before! We must become the vessels of destruction we were meant to be!


Were they desperate? Hellfire Citadel was the seat of their power and arguably the most well-defended. Plus the Iron Horde was never shown to be desperate. You're just assuming they were desperate.


Both do apply, because that's exactly what happened: willingly acceptance of the curse.

There is no assumption on my part. The orcs were desperate. Guld'dan convinces them precisely because they were losing, it is literally spelled out before them, the war had brought the clans to ruin and they had only one option. There is no assumption whatsoever:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=levTG8D4Joc

About mannoroth and the fountain of life: Knowing there is a demon curse means absolutely nothing, it does not mean demon blood nor it means that they would lose their free will. In fact, you ignored the cutscene at the end of the questline when Grom discover what he has done. He believed himslef free up to that point. IN fact, it was a dreadlord, a race known for scheming, that gave mannoroth the idea to taint the pool. And even then Cenarius was adamant on getting rid of them, soyou could very well argue that it was an act of desperation too.

[qwerty123456]

No, because the humans had free will when they enslaved the orcs. The curse of flesh made humans mortals and susceptible to corruption, but it did not corrupt them, they had free will. Unlike the orcs that were being controlled by the demons and did not have free will.

Then why were orcs able to do shit on their own? Clearly they had some agency of their own. And alt Dreanor clearly shows us they are more than willing to start genociding without any demon blood.

[Sluvs]

Then why were orcs able to do shit on their own? Clearly they had some agency of their own. And alt Dreanor clearly shows us they are more than willing to start genociding without any demon blood.

They had to obey the demons, to say that they free will is flat out wrong. They might have agency the same way a scourge agent has, only to further their masters desires.

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Honestly this is basic Warcraft Lore. Orcs were controlled and under the legion's thumb. It is their whole thing. To even think otherwise is just wrong.

[Mehrunes]

You mean the portal that Khadgar closed to avoid more orcs from coming in, by destroying the portal itself, which also caused the portal in Draenor to explode?

I am perfectly aware that Khadgar closed the portal. I flat out said that in what you quoted. Are you hoping that I wouldn't notice that you're repeating that just I said, or what? And what's supposed to be the long-term game plan? That I'd be so in awe for you stating that piece of lore that I'd forget the other thing I just said? You know, the one that you chose not to repeat? I.e. how Khadgar didn't close the Dark Portal immediately after the battle of Blackrock and did so only later on? Which would have allowed the Alliance to march the Orcs to Draenor if they so wished?

You mean returning them to their own world, risking restarting the whole "lok'tar ogar" party into Azeroth again?

You just repeated after me that Khadgar closed the portal. Whatever game plan you had for repeating something I said, you seem to have abandoned it instantly. Anyway, for what the Alliance knew at the time, that was that. They learned that the link between the worlds was permanent only a few years later. What they did know, however, was that the portal on Azeroth had to be constructed on Azeroth by Medivh instead of being something the Orcs achieved from their side. So all they had to do was to monitor the next Guardian in case they got corrupted as well. Except there was no new Guardian, so they had to do squat.

And even if they assumed the Orcs could have reopened the first portal (which, again, they did not at the time) as I already said in a reply to you and which you profoundly ignored (as avoiding to address something to inconvenient to your point apparently makes the inconvenient counterpoint magically disappear), the Dark Portal made for one gigantic choke point. If the Alliance built Nethergarde around the Dark Portal instead 50 miles away from it, the Orcs could have been reopening it every Wednesday and they'd just be walking into a meatgrinder.

[qwerty123456]

They had to obey the demons, to say that they free will is flat out wrong. They might have agency the same way a scourge agent has, only to further their masters desires.

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Honestly this is basic Warcraft Lore. Orcs were controlled and under the legion's thumb. It is their whole thing. To even think otherwise is just wrong.

I didn't realize they never turned on the demons. Oh wait.....

And it doesn't change the fact that non demon blood orcs quickly started raping and murdering everything in sight just because a guy gave them advanced tech.

[Mehrunes]

It doesn't matter if they were 'under the influence', because they still did it, and have shown to willingly do it again if given the option, and worse yet: Garrosh has shown that orcs do not need "demon influence" to do what they did in the first invasion of Azeroth.

Let's pay no attention to them being tricked by Garrosh and his gift of vision that he conveniently cut short.

Were they desperate? Hellfire Citadel was the seat of their power and arguably the most well-defended. Plus the Iron Horde was never shown to be desperate. You're just assuming they were desperate.

If you ignore Gul'dan mocking Grom for bringing the Orcs to ruin, which spurned Kilrogg to become the first AU Orc outside of the Shadow council to accept his "gift", sure.

Then do you remove the blame for humans actions because they have been corrupted by old gods and the curse of flesh?

Have humans ever been under Old God's direct control just because of the curse of flesh alone? No? Then perhaps this comparison of yours is flat out false.

[Daronokk]

How should the Horde pay reparations to the Alliance, particularly the Night Elves, for their conduct in the Fourth War?

They shouldn't. How should the Night Elves pay reparations for the sundering caused by their queen? The entire planet is waiting...

[Arrashi]

They should, even if very small ones just for the gesture. Otherwise in 3-4 generations you gonna have thousands of alliance "patriots" demanding munny.

[Mehrunes]

I didn't realize they never turned on the demons. Oh wait.....

And it doesn't change the fact that non demon blood orcs quickly started raping and murdering everything in sight just because a guy gave them advanced tech.

And after he made them believe Azerothians were out there to subjugate them by cutting the vision granted to Grom short.

[Daronokk]

I didn't realize they never turned on the demons. Oh wait.....

And it doesn't change the fact that non demon blood orcs quickly started raping and murdering everything in sight just because a guy gave them advanced tech.

Raping? You're making stuff up. But coming from a retarded Draenei player it makes sense to jump to such conclusions, did your parents drop you as a child?
[Infraction]

[Mehrunes]

The point is about optics. Maybe you should try to understand things before spouting off like a severed artery.

What kind of "optics" made it look like Benedictus was dealt with outside of a dungeon?

[qwerty123456]

And after he made them believe Azerothians were out there to subjugate them by cutting the vision granted to Grom short.

A single vision that not everyone saw was enough to betray people you have been friendly with for years? And that vision then made Grom subjugate, enslave, kill and rape everyone else on dreanor including other orcs? I didn't realize the vision was so powerful that it mind controlled him.

And the orcs weren't completely controlled by the demons otherwise they would have never been able to betray them.

Raping? You're making stuff up. But coming from a retarded Draenei player it makes sense to jump to such conclusions, did your parents drop you as a child?

You know how Garona was born right?? Learn lore before making a post next time. Also replay WoD as its implied what will happen to Yrel and shit.

[Sluvs]

I didn't realize they never turned on the demons. Oh wait.....

And it doesn't change the fact that non demon blood orcs quickly started raping and murdering everything in sight just because a guy gave them advanced tech.

They only managed to turn on the demons because their grasp started to slip.

But it also does no change the fact that not all clans went under groms banner, and also no bearing on orc enslavement, which was the main point being argued. Also raping? Cmon.

[Varodoc]

I'm pretty sure it's stated somewhere that the orcs raped female draenei during their invasion of Shattrath.

[qwerty123456]

They only managed to turn on the demons because their grasp started to slip.

But it also does no change the fact that not all clans went under groms banner, and also no bearing on orc enslavement, which was the main point being argued. Also raping? Cmon.

Did you not play WoD. Its the implied fate of Yrel when you rescue her. And its not right out stated because its a teen game.