Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Bigcountry11782]

You're wrong. It's good that you have choices.

You sound like Blizzard.

[ElsaHosk]

Bring back 10m HC.

[Firebert]

Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

Item levels:

Normal Dungeons
Heroic Dungeons +3iL
LFR, M+0 (which can be queued for using LFD) +5iL
Normal Raid (which can be queued for using LFR), M+2-4 +7iL
M+6-8 +8iL
M+9-12 +9iL
Heroic Raid, M+13-15 +10iL
M+16-18 +11iL
M+19-21 +12iL
M+22-25 +13iL
M+26-29 +14iL
Mythic Raid, M+30+ +15iL

Tiers progress at 10 item levels per patch. Gear is normalised down to +7iL for PvP, to encourage PvPers to queue for Normal raids and no higher, and for PvEers to not destroy PvPers with Mythic Raid/Plus gear.

[ID811717]

But it is.Look at Mythic+ that came directly from diablo 3.if you think gear isn't raiders primary motivation then you have a very odd view on wow as a whole and the majority of the player base.When you get that last piece of tier that completes the set or that weapon that has eluded you for months finally drop and you win the roll it is a great moment or you finish a long chain of quests and challenges and you can wield a powerful legendary weapon.Oh wait i forget i am thinking of the old wow when gear meant something....

I have been playing WoW (and raiding) since TBC, with major breaks here and there. I'm honestly sitting here and thinking where your claims on the "majority of the player base" come from, whether I could ever relate to them at all.

I spent WotLK playing in rank 100-300 guilds with loot councils. They asked raiders to submit BiS gear list ahead of the tier, and everyone got all the pieces they wanted (as far as RNG allowed). I think we were all on the same page that playing good and improving our world rank is all that matters, gear was already just a tool. My mindset is still the same to this day (even though everything else changed: now I play the game mostly for M+, and I only raid to get better gear for high M+ keys).

My guilds in TBC used DKP, so there was more tension about getting the gear. But I was in guilds that never stopped progressing (I was in mid-BT when the pre-patch hit, and only cleared BT tanks to that). In my recollection, the frustrations of slow progress overtook everything else, and we had not enough time to care about BiS gear... You're not getting that gear if you cannot kill the bosses anyway.

I really cannot recall anyone who was obsessed with BiS gear for the sake of the gear among my guilds and friends in all this time. It was always "gear as a tool for better progress" mindset for me. How can you determine that the majority of the player base cares about gear first and foremost? Do you think that mindset is more common in more casual or in more hardcore players?

Now with this Mythic+ shit you can just do it over and over and over and over till you get what you want and no one else can challenge you to a roll to win the item.Sounds just like another game from blizzard,i just can't put my finger on it... oHHHH its just like Diablo 3 This is one of the reasons why the game is a shell of its former self.

But 465 ilvl gear is nearly always worse than 475 or 485. It still comes down to praying for lucky weekly chests, or actually raiding to get those 475s. And some classes really need those 485 pieces from raiding to hold their ground in top M+ keys. No matter whether your focus is M+ or raiding, you are normally forced to do both types of contents if you want to have BiS gear setup and be competitive. Just spamming +15 keys for 465s does not give you gear that you will be happy with.

[froschhure]

M+ needs to get buffed again. Raiding is boring

[Advent]

M+ needs to get buffed again. Raiding is boring

Raiding is, and always has been, boring. The only thing that hid the fact that it was a dull, irritating slog was having people around you enjoyed talking to.

[ID811717]

Raiding is, and always has been, boring. The only thing that hid the fact that it was a dull, irritating slog was having people around you enjoyed talking to.

Actually, you can dismiss many multiplayer-based games and aspects things this way.

M+ is also boring if you look at this as just pointless, repetitive content. Sure, it gives you some challenge if you want to push high. But why not run marathons for challenge instead, one every day? It ultimately comes down to people striving for social interaction, and sometimes an easy way to be appreciated, adored, or respected (by people who inspected your gear in Orgrimmar back in Vanilla, or by people who see your score and/or stream in BfA).

Not trying to belittle anyone's achievements, but I was myself obsessed with different aspects of different multiplayer games a lot over the years. And I have always tried to be critical of why I have such preferences.

[Kralljin]

what is this about +30???

Look at the Ilvl difference between Heroic Uldir and Heroic BoD.

There's your +30.
That's not just because of Mythic, that's because Blizzard decided to add +30 Ilvl.

You could throw +15 Ilvl per Tier and still keep Mythic, problem is that Blizzard doesn't want that because people should always play the newest patch, not the previous one.

Raiding is, and always has been, boring. The only thing that hid the fact that it was a dull, irritating slog was having people around you enjoyed talking to.

That's fucking hilarious if you prefer M+.

Where you are doing virtually the same dungeons for 2 years straight, only thing Blizzard does is throw some sprinkles on top of it, whereas 90% of the content remains the same.
If you raid, you actually play different encounters each raid, not just the same ones with adjusted numbers.

Dismissing raiding as boring is a luxury that only the PvP crowd has in my opinion, but anyone who prefers M+ is sitting in a glasshouse.

[La]

Look at the Ilvl difference between Heroic Uldir and Heroic BoD.

There's your +30.
That's not just because of Mythic, that's because Blizzard decided to add +30 Ilvl.

You could throw +15 Ilvl per Tier and still keep Mythic, problem is that Blizzard doesn't want that because people should always play the newest patch, not the previous one.

That's fucking hilarious if you prefer M+.

Where you are doing virtually the same dungeons for 2 years straight, only thing Blizzard does is throw some sprinkles on top of it, whereas 90% of the content remains the same.
If you raid, you actually play different encounters each raid, not just the same ones with adjusted numbers.

Dismissing raiding as boring is a luxury that only the PvP crowd has in my opinion, but anyone who prefers M+ is sitting in a glasshouse.

It's just glorified trash killing simulator where you have to do such difficult affixes like "Kill these mobs at the same time" and "Don't cast when the timer almost hits 0" Oh my god I'm so excited just talking about it. Not to mention it scales to infinity, therefore it's infinitely difficult and harder than raiding /s

[Aggrophobic]

Meh, I think it works well now.
If you don't like M+, raid.
If you don't like raids, do M+, PvP or whatever.

Having options is great.

[dcc626]

I agree with OP that the gear progression of M+ is bad for raiding.

It makes no sense to have M+ drop infinite (problem 1) gear which through TF potentially is superior to raid loot (problem 2). Whereas in raids the drops are finite (weekly). Why ever bother with raids with such a lucrative source of gear which also is nowhere near as time consuming as mythic raids.

Although I must say that these are issues that decrease raid experience. I would rather have Blizzard focus on other things that are way more important. Like stopping with seasonal borrowed powers and start making classes feel whole again, stop the insane seasonal grinds and stop funneling/forcing people to play a single spec.

Then again I already settled with Classic. AQ patch just started a week ago and the war event is about to start at any moment on my realm. Been looking forward to this for so long. Can't remember when I last was this hyped on retail....

well, in shadowlands m+ will drop less loot per run, there is no forging/corruption/variance of any kind (barring sockets/tertiaries which we still dont have fuill details on)

as for being hyped about classic, great. how long does that last?

[Celestraza]

well, in shadowlands m+ will drop less loot per run, there is no forging/corruption/variance of any kind (barring sockets/tertiaries which we still dont have fuill details on)

as for being hyped about classic, great. how long does that last?

Till Naxx obviously.

Then the big speculation begins. Will they do TBC or not. And also in what place will retail be at once Naxx is done? I am very curious what they will do after Naxx.

I mean honestly, BFA not only has nothing going for it but it also pushed players away that loved WoW. It's been going downhill in every aspect since MoP except having M+ as a feature (and still excecuted beyond poorly).

[Frostpyro]

Def think they need to eliminate a lot of this.

Normal = Current Heroic Flex

Mythic = Current Mythic

and simply make a group Scenario setting in place of LFR. The community argues that it needs to stay to see content and story. This would allow these needs without trivializing the raiding scene.

[Osmeric]

You both are arguing essentially the same thing.

Not at all. The person I am arguing with thinks that having an extra difficulty in the stack causes all the difficulties to go up by an extra 15 for each tier, or an extra 60 over four tiers. This is not correct!

[deenman]

Look at the Ilvl difference between Heroic Uldir and Heroic BoD.

There's your +30.
That's not just because of Mythic, that's because Blizzard decided to add +30 Ilvl.

You could throw +15 Ilvl per Tier and still keep Mythic, problem is that Blizzard doesn't want that because people should always play the newest patch, not the previous one.

That's fucking hilarious if you prefer M+.

Where you are doing virtually the same dungeons for 2 years straight, only thing Blizzard does is throw some sprinkles on top of it, whereas 90% of the content remains the same.
If you raid, you actually play different encounters each raid, not just the same ones with adjusted numbers.

Dismissing raiding as boring is a luxury that only the PvP crowd has in my opinion, but anyone who prefers M+ is sitting in a glasshouse.

it wouldnt be 30 anymore if you remove one difficulty...

[Kralljin]

it wouldnt be 30 anymore if you remove one difficulty...

By that logic, it would be 0 if we remove another.

[Accendor]

(Anecdotal evidence incoming) I have been in progression raiding guilds that lost players because they wanted to focus on m+. Honestly, I couldn’t blame them. Equal gear for much less effort and the ability to play on a very flexible schedule. The only appeal to raiding for them was raid sets and mounts, which can easily be purchased later by all the gold they can make from selling m+ runs.
That stated, I really believe they need to have pieces “turn off,” or be devalued under certain conditions. For example: raid gear maintains 400 ilvl in raids and world content but drops down 100 ilvls for m+ and PvP instance content. PvP gear has 400 ilvl in instance PvP and world content but drops 100 ilvl in raids and m+. M+ has 400 ilvl but drops 100 ilvls in raids and PvP. I can see the complaints from people who want to do all content, but I also see the benefit outweighing the bad as players who enjoy only 1 aspect don’t need to do all of them.

Oh my God, no. Gear should always work the same way, no matter where you are. Wtf even is this idea

[Eapoe]

Oh my God, no. Gear should always work the same way, no matter where you are. Wtf even is this idea

This idea is to keep things how Blizzaed originally stated, an alternative to (not in conjunction with) way of gearing up.
It also keeps things separate between PvP and PvE which is how gearing had worked for several xpacs and most vocal people seem to prefer it. That way people that like doing one or the other don’t feel a need to have to do something they don’t want to, or even like doing.
It then further separates m+ and raids so people don’t have to do them both if they don’t enjoy them and keeps BiS gear separate for both.
It still leaves people fully powered for their preferred content, as well as world content, and even things like Torghast (for example).

[deenman]

By that logic, it would be 0 if we remove another.

lol,seriously,have you people failed at basic math?no...if we removed another it would just scale back by one order of 15

uldir 355-370

dazalor 370-385

unless they wanted it to jump higher maybe do uldir 355-370 and have dazalor start with 375 maybe,but that would just be a design choice

[Kralljin]

lol,seriously,have you people failed at basic math?

No, but i resonate what others have said:
You are.

uldir 355-370

dazalor 370-385

The reason why we have these jumps is that people don't have to farm the previous tier for equivalent gear.

In your example, people who are doing Normal BoD could also farm Uldir Heroic for equivalent gear.
That's why there is a 30 Ilvl jump, not because of Mythic.