Horde Reparations

[DatToffer]

So the War of Thorns was not the methodic and targeted destruction of the Night Elf people to establish Horde supremacy on Kalimdor?

Since Saurfang made a way for the Astranaar civilian to evacuate. Since they didn't pursue the NE to Hyjal or Stormwind to effectively wipe them out. Since the objective was to capture the city at first... Then no. Genocide was not the primary intent.
Well, it was maybe Sylvanas intent from the start, but her video doesn't say so.

I am just saying, we could try to get back to that Horde again. It's not impossible, it would just take a lot of narrative work that Blizzard is not interested in because they actually seem to enjoy this mess they created. And also saying that not every Horde player is happy with what the Horde is now because several started way back then when the Horde concept was VERY different.

I'm all for that, and I guess the council is a good start. The vulpera intro questline shows how the Horde is now focusing on their own problems.

[paragraphgorilla]

How should the Horde pay reparations to the Alliance, particularly the Night Elves, for their conduct in the Fourth War?

One nuke wasn't enough...

[DatToffer]

Astoundingly I have heard this argument many times before. Horde fanboys just feel that their beloved faction should never be held accountable for any of it's crimes and it is totally unfair to punish the Orcs for invading and murdering people for fun (TWICE), they actually consider the incarceration of this extremely dangerous army of warcriminals a crime (worse then what the Orcs actually did before, including several genocides)

It boggles the mind. I am truely unable to comprehend the logical twists and turns that you need to take to make this argument. Probably when people have reached that point the pure Bias has replaced reason.

Actually, what pisses Horde fans off is that their faction is only depicted as war criminal from time to time, usually from the Alliance side of quests.

You think that Blizz caters to the Horde by not holding them accountable for their crimes. Well I think Blizz caters to the Alliance : By showing war crimes only from their point of view, you legitimate their actions and turn their act of war and vengeance into acts of "justice". Meanwhile, in the Horde questing, you never hear nor experience those war crimes. Your character strives to make good on the Horde name, but Blizzard throws those little crimes around and you can't even witness them.

Also, maybe it's not a good argument, but the difference between the Horde attack on Azeroth and the internment camps is that humans weren't under the influence of demon blood. They took advantage of a defeated and apathetic enemy.

If showing an orc free from bloodlust enjoying the kill of children draenei is "revealing what orcs really are", then the internment camps reveal what humans really are. And I must admit, I only wish the Alliance absolutely won the Fourth War so we can see this side of them. Humans abusing their enemy once they were weak, that would make a totally legit new reason for the Horde to fight back. But first they would have to face the consequences of their actions and become the oppressed losers of the war. And since both side of our playerbase have such fragile ego, we're stuck to the stupid status quo.

They fully intended it to remove them from the geographical region though. I don't even think they went to Hyjal until after the Horde had lost control of the area. As for Saurgang making a way for Astrnaar civilians to evacuate . . . I mean it's not exactly clear what happened because the stories and the quests from either faction's side do not coincide.

That's an invasion then, not a genocide. And yeah I know the both sides of the quest are not clear... It's the kind of stupid shit I'm talking about. Blizz lets you believe as a Horde player that your faction is clean, but they show all the dirty side to the Alliance.

[DatToffer]

Heck they went even further with BoD.

Yes ! Like Rastakhan encounters, right ? You go from straight up aggression from the Alliance to trying to negotiate his surrender. Smh.

I guess they only wanted to express the "History is written by the winner" kinda thing.

[Syegfryed]

"Won't someone think of the children?!"

Can I assume you're similarly distressed for all the children whose parents were brutally murdered and their souls used as fuel by the Old Horde and their warlocks? Or, far more likely based on your history of extreme orc bias, only orc children matter to you.

so, you want to punish the children of the orcs, because the orcs made the human children cry

thats rly track the alliance hypocrisy, not gonna lie.

As you can see, from the get-go I mentioned guys only stopping because they got caught.

and again, that is the scenario you are making up, if your premise is false, the rest of your argument is simple invallid

Another example. Person A and person B. Both in different parts of the city. Both armed with a gun. Both enter their own local mall. Both start shooting with the intention of killing everyone in there.

we can just end here, and ignore everything else, since once again, your premise is already false

By your logic, you're saying person A is the "less evil" of the two because he killed less people, despite both intending to kill everyone.

again making shit up

Really? Are you going to make the argument that the Iron Horde would stop conquering after getting Azeroth?

its nice how here you change the words of mass murdering everyone to conquering

Insult me however you want. It doesn't change the fact that you're just plain wrong, here. Objectively so.

saying you don't have self-awareness, of how you are clearly don't, once again derailing other thread isn't rly an insult.

No, it's not. Because you don't know comparisons, apparently.

once again, with the "no this one isn't vallid because i don't like it"

But now suddenly you know enough to say which one "used more souls"?

we know the portal was opened for way less time and they used 3 pwoerful warlocks to also empower it, do the math

and on top of that, I'm going to repost something form my previous post that you avoided answering:

there is nothing to avoid that, you are once again taking this single event to support the entire thing, ignoring totally everything that happened besides this.

Even if they did th exact same thing, with the exact same scale, with the same exact numbers, it would not make the iron horde worse because there is also worse shit the MU did

No. No, it doesn't. At all. Because, again, what matters is how far they were willing to go with what they were doing. It doesn't matter how many they actually killed, how many souls they actually consumed. The point is that both killed a lot, and were willing to kill and consume as many souls as needed to reach their objectives.

no, again, you are not the one who decide what matters and what don't, you think the intent of sacrificing draenei souls is enough to say that the Iron horde did worse than MU horde, while ignoring everything else that happened, and that is simple wrong

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There might have been a difference, but the current horde literally just now showed that they are all up for genocide, just like their distant relatives.

no they don't.

It was NOT the decision of the leaders that burned Teldrassil and Brennendam, it was the decision of THE HORDE and if you played the war campaign you will see that they very much enjoyed the war. AGAIN.

it was Sylvanas decision and everyone had to obey and follow because it was the plot that Blizzard want to make

you are blaming the horde because an outside force who have forced then to be the villains once again to the plot convenience, because they are incompetent they will try to make look like nothing happened

We clashed in wow lore logic and what blizzard forced, for the record, the horde would not even follow sylvanas into another war in the first place, but sure, horde did because yes? then the burning, only the loyal forsaken would side with her, straight up, no the rest of the horde. But no, thats not the plot Blizzard want, horde have to follow her because reasons, now apparently they don't have choice, and thats it, no option, let do a piss-poor side-quest to show not everyone like that and call a day.

Lol the horde is slave to the plot, there is nothing they can do, they will be what blizzard need then to be, isn't because they are genocidal monsters, is because blizzard is bad at writing.

[DatToffer]

Well the Alliance side is actually the true one there, given that the Alliance players directly experience it while the Horde get it second hand (and plus the Horde one makes no sense). Not that BoD isn't idiotic as a concept in general. A fun raid though.

Fun encounters yeah, I should play it again before the end of the expac xD

[Accendor]

it was Sylvanas decision and everyone had to obey and follow because it was the plot that Blizzard want to make

you are blaming the horde because an outside force who have forced then to be the villains once again to the plot convenience, because they are incompetent they will try to make look like nothing happened

We clashed in wow lore logic and what blizzard forced, for the record, the horde would not even follow sylvanas into another war in the first place, but sure, horde did because yes? then the burning, only the loyal forsaken would side with her, straight up, no the rest of the horde. But no, thats not the plot Blizzard want, horde have to follow her because reasons, now apparently they don't have choice, and thats it, no option, let do a piss-poor side-quest to show not everyone like that and call a day.

Lol the horde is slave to the plot, there is nothing they can do, they will be what blizzard need then to be, isn't because they are genocidal monsters, is because blizzard is bad at writing.

Just to make this very clear, we are on the same page here. I think the whole idea that not only the horde obeyed that order but that basically nobody had any objections AFTERWARDS is just bullshit.
I understand that as a horde PLAYER somebody would be upset. Like really, thats not how I would like my faction to act.

The horde are only slaves for what Blizzard does to them, many people hate it (including me!), but it is what it is and if Blizzard decides the horde are genocidal maniacs, then we have to live with that and deal with the consequences.

[bowlink]

Well the Alliance side is actually the true one there, given that the Alliance players directly experience it while the Horde get it second hand (and plus the Horde one makes no sense). Not that BoD isn't idiotic as a concept in general. A fun raid though.

What i find interesting from that Dazar'alor raid. Is, yes the alliance version is the true version and the zandalari narator is embezzling the truth. When alliance do the horde section the dialogue is exactly the same as the horde version. So even in war alliance have the decentcy to tell the truth to there soldiers.

And before anyone screams vulpera murder squads. Assaults aren't canon and if they were, that just means Lady Liadrin is a monster who sends you out to kill a medic (in Drustvar) a civilian Veterinarian (in stormsong valley. And most importantly she send you to kill a Neutral pandaren healer (in Tirgarde Sound).

Bottom line even at its darkest the Alliance is a lighter shade of grey. The hordes pitch black

Lastly the only horde races that have any moral ground to stand on are both the tauen factions, the vulpera, and maby the nightborne (if thalyra wasn't so thirsty for bob she would kicking herself for siding with anyone at all.)

The rest are warmongering psychopaths:
Orcs: self explanitory
Troll: butthurt they aren't the top impire anymore.
Undead: objectivly evil despite activisionblizzard trying to whitewash them with bleach
Blood elves: enslaved a naruu for power, also desicrate a holy site in strathholm basicly the only safe haven there, just so they can boist that their paladins are better and getting the thalassian charger for it.
Bilgewater goblin: would sell their own mother into slavery (still don't get why they put Gazlowe in that faction when hes was a steamweedle)
Magh'ar ors: see vanilla orc also draenor is free

Yea that about covers it

[DatToffer]

Assaults aren't canon

You know, every one of those "Alliance better than Horde" and vice versa debates turn to shit because of people headcanons, interpretations on lore and bad faith. I mean, it can only turn crazy because all factions are slaves to the narration, and there's no point in debating on the legitimacy or the horror of those fictional characters, like they were real people in need of a trial.

But do we really need to bring each person thought on "what is canon in the game" ? This is really just an excuse to invalidate someone's arguments when it suits you.

[DatToffer]

You can also blame Blizzard for playing fast and loose with canon tbh.

Honestly, I just wish people would stop putting so much heart into comparing one faction to the other.

The debates about which is most powerful/strong/etc. are stupid enough since power lvls are also defined by the narrative. But debates about who has done the most horrible things, who deserves what punishment, whose actions are the legitimate and whose are not... These are just tiring.

I wish people could just be able to say why they like a faction, why they dislike another, discuss their point of view but without feeling the plead for their favorite or demean and accuse the other.

[goldlock]

Honestly, I just wish people would stop putting so much heart into comparing one faction to the other.

The debates about which is most powerful/strong/etc. are stupid enough since power lvls are also defined by the narrative. But debates about who has done the most horrible things, who deserves what punishment, whose actions are the legitimate and whose are not... These are just tiring.

I wish people could just be able to say why they like a faction, why they dislike another, discuss their point of view but without feeling the plead for their favorite or demean and accuse the other.

I mean the story isn't written well enough for that.

Blizzard can't really force themselves to write the alliance in anything but a justified or sympathetic role. The entire lore of warcraft is the alliance either being betrayed or attacked unprovoked and responding to it.

The closest we have had to a neutral reaction from the alliance is the battle of daza'lor (not sure that is spelled right) and even then... it was an attack on a military target where they allowed civilians to escape that was actively being used as a launching point for attacks against them.

Lore wise there isn't a reason why the horde hasn't had everyone of its leaders executed and absorbing into the alliance through conquest. This whole "saying sorry so its cool bro" shouldn't of worked in story telling once never mind the... 5th? 6th time we are doing it now if you could from warcraft 1

[bowlink]

You know, every one of those "Alliance better than Horde" and vice versa debates turn to shit because of people headcanons, interpretations on lore and bad faith. I mean, it can only turn crazy because all factions are slaves to the narration, and there's no point in debating on the legitimacy or the horror of those fictional characters, like they were real people in need of a trial.

But do we really need to bring each person thought on "what is canon in the game" ? This is really just an excuse to invalidate someone's arguments when it suits you.

The only reason i say they are not canon is because their game mechanics that are on a rotation with no lasting effects, i used to say the same with warfronts untill activisionblizzard said at blizzcon 2019 that officialy the alliance one those. I have a similar opinion of legion invasions. Im on the fence with the open world visions as those are technicly illusions and by that nature aren't permanent and is just nzoth fucking with us.

And i seem to recall i also said that assaults could be canon, it would just mean liadrin is more of a self righterous piece shit than she already is.

And as @Nymrohd pointed out when alliance dip their toes in unscrupulous methods, its just that dipping their toes.

Horde on the other hand fully cannon balls that sucker.

At this point alliance could be carte blanche with their methods with the horde and still hold the moral high ground IMHO.

But ill wait and see what blizzard does with that Zealot Turalyon in power and the Scarlet Crusa...i mean brotherhood working behind the scene while Anduin is indisposed

[Ielenia]

Objectively, yes they are. Because otherwise is to say the lives of those 10 people are somehow worth at least 5 of the people in the other group. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but also for the same reasons if you were forced to arrange a series of atrocities in order of severity, the 50 dead is obviously worse.

Except we're not talking about events, but people, or groups of people, in this case the Fel Horde and Iron Horde. The Iron Horde committed less atrocities, yes, but that is because the Fel Horde had more time to commit more atrocities than the Iron Horde did. But both have been shown to be just as evil for being willing to do the exact same atrocities.

Which also means that the Iron Horde is technically more evil and therefore worse than the Fel Horde, because the Fel Horde at least had the mitigating factor of having their minds influenced by a demon curse that heightened their aggression and lust for conquest.

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and again, that is the scenario you are making up, if your premise is false, the rest of your argument is simple invallid

Of course the scenario is made up. I made it up to use as an example. And also, my premise is actually true, as explained and demonstrated several times. A mass-murderer is not "less evil" than the other just because he did not have the opportunity to commit as many murders as the other before getting caught, when both wanted to kill indiscriminately.

again making shit up

The only "shit" here is your logic, as demonstrated more than once.

its nice how here you change the words of mass murdering everyone to conquering

It's nice to know you're misrepresenting the entire thing, demonstrating an actual inability to comprehend english, or an intent to troll, considering the "mass-murderer" was referring to my example, not the orcs.

saying you don't have self-awareness, of how you are clearly don't, once again derailing other thread isn't rly an insult.

So you don't know what 'insult' means.

once again, with the "no this one isn't vallid because i don't like it"

No, it's "this isn't valid and here's why".

we know the portal was opened for way less time and they used 3 pwoerful warlocks to also empower it, do the math

Ok. I'll do the math. Give me the energy value of the souls, and the catalyst power of the three warlocks, and I'll do the math.

Oh wait. You can't do that. Because you don't know any of that. Do you know if the Iron Horde's portal is just as efficient, soul-wise, as the Fel Horde's portal? Do you know how many warlocks powered the original Dark Portal? No, you don't. You're making assumptions, while berating me for making assumptions.

And I'll repeat what I've said countless times: it doesn't matter if the Iron Horde consumed less sounds, more souls, or just as many souls as the Fel Horde. What matters is that they were willing to do so for as long as they wanted.

you are once again taking this single event to support the entire thing, ignoring totally everything that happened besides this.

Even if they did th exact same thing, with the exact same scale, with the same exact numbers, it would not make the iron horde worse because there is also worse shit the MU did

And you failed to failed to show off anything. The Path of Glory? Those are just the bones of the bodies left to rot. That, in no way, is worse than consuming the souls of the draenei to power the portal.

no, again, you are not the one who decide what matters and what don't, you think the intent of sacrificing draenei souls is enough to say that the Iron horde did worse than MU horde, while ignoring everything else that happened, and that is simple wrong

No, I think the Iron Horde is worse because they committed the same atrocities while in sound mind and body while the Fel Horde at least had the mitigating factor of having their minds and bodies corrupted and influenced by a demon curse that heightened their aggression and thirst for conquest.

[Ardenaso]

The horde are the bad guys. I don't know why people can't come to terms with that.

writers. the writers ruined the Horde. The Horde was supposed to be the honorable redeemed outcasts trying to struggle together to survive in the cruel world. The Horde's redemption in WC3 was thrown away in BFA

before I played WoW, I first got the impression that the Horde would be the "grotesque but actually the good guys" and the Alliance would be the "noble but vain and self-righteous"

[Unholyground]

I agree we should get reparations because the Alliance did not lay down like the dogs they are so we are owed at the very least Stormwind.

[Ardenaso]

Since Saurfang made a way for the Astranaar civilian to evacuate. Since they didn't pursue the NE to Hyjal or Stormwind to effectively wipe them out. Since the objective was to capture the city at first... Then no. Genocide was not the primary intent.
Well, it was maybe Sylvanas intent from the start, but her video doesn't say so.

I thought Lorash and his rogues wiped them all out

[DatToffer]

I thought Lorash and his rogues wiped them all out

It depends if you played Horde or Alliance... Pretty confusing I must say...

[Ardenaso]

6th time we are doing it now if you could from warcraft 1

if the Alliance of Lordaeron =/= then Old Horde =/= Thrall's Horde

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed, if you really cannot stand it, I advise you to find a group of people and run a tabletop campaign in the Warcraft universe using your own sequence of events. I did it for a while (back to Eberron now were I'm running an Avengers type of game) and it was very liberating

i mean i already play dnd and other sort of ttrpg, but those kinds of things rly don't fix right? the "official" lore keep going on and on and things like that, even when they try hard, are not erased, the "only hope" not wanting to be dramatic, is they start writing with consistency, and i doubt it happening any soon.

No one forced the Horde to do anything. No one forced orc soldiers to attack Brennadam in the manner they did.

we are not talking about Brennadam, i at least was not, we re talking bout the shitshow it was the "war of torns" nd everything after it

The vast majority of the Horde was aligned with Sylvanas except for a few leader;

exactly, thts what im saying, it make no sense for majority of the horde to be aligned with her, when for less reasons everyone was against Garrosh

And that means there is no point in discussing this because then the Alliance is also slave to the plot and that's why they put the orcs in internment camps (which made no sense) or did anything else wrong. Your logic.

We do not get to elevate our headcannon of how things should be beyond what the writers decide they are.

there is a big difference in bad writing and clearly contradictions in what is already established, just for the sake of plot

Doing plot decisions when it make sense, liker making a character do X because he don't like Y? that is perfect fine to me, now making a character do Y while doing Z when he is being doing X his whole life and despising Z? that is where i thing the problem exist.

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snip.

alright, since you are basically trying to convince yourself at this point, we can keep like that

MU horde did worse than iron horde, period, no matter how you want to distort that.

[Ersula]

There might have been a difference, but the current horde literally just now showed that they are all up for genocide, just like their distant relatives. That is the problem: The horde as a whole now is pure evil and from an alliance POV there is no difference between the legion, the scourge and the horde. I really don't know how the factions should ever become morally equal again.

Ignoring that the Alliance is still fine with ransacking a city, and everything else they ever did wrong: Killing the leader of Zandalar for no reason, Rexxar's description of their tactics. Jaina's little Dalaran Krystalnacht. The fact that the Alliance existed for 1000 years solely to displace Trolls colonize their land...

The Teldrassil thing was extremely contrived on a logistical level: Okay burning the tree. It's a giant stump so that should give them plenty of time to evacuate. But Sylvanas had special mages? to make the tree burn faster? Like specialized kindling mages? How? The entire pre-teldrassil questline portrays this as a spur of the moment desicion? And remember when the whole message of the ending to Reign of Chaos was "The Night Elves have lived long enough?" The writing is silly, to turn Sylvanas into a cartoonish villain, and even then to consider the Horde as plainly evil, you have to ignore all the Horde figures who did have a problem with what was happening. The story dedicated so much time to that.

This is the Horde:

*Image of the Battle For Dezaralor intro where some troll fishermen get a pillar dropped on them by the Alliance* Ahh, civilian casualties are only justified when the Alliance does them. Got it.

No, I think the Iron Horde is worse because they committed the same atrocities while in sound mind and body while the Fel Horde at least had the mitigating factor of having their minds and bodies corrupted and influenced by a demon curse that heightened their aggression and thirst for conquest.

Still, The Iron Horde, the Fel Horde & the New Horde are totally different groups. So my analogy to the Draenei & Eredar still applies. Turalyon insisting they were the same group seemed weird to me when he returned in legion, but then he melted a guy's brain in front of his family in Shadows Rising. Turalyon's irrational hatred of Orcs makes sense if he's supposed to be the next Garrosh. It's finally time for an Alliance character to get Blizzard's patented character-assassination treatment