For Everyone Saying Speed Clear Raids Are Evidence of Classic's Lack of Difficulty...

[Netherblood]

The problem isnt guilds speed clearing who played private servers for 15 years, thats to be expected. Though BFA raids if done under-geared even with practice wouldn't be one shots on a lot of bosses. The main problem that shows the raids are easy is more casual guilds who have not played any private servers 1-2 shotting every boss.

[arkanon]

The problem isnt guilds speed clearing who played private servers for 15 years, thats to be expected. Though BFA raids if done under-geared even with practice wouldn't be one shots on a lot of bosses. The main problem that shows the raids are easy is more casual guilds who have not played any private servers 1-2 shotting every boss.

This - over and over and over again - THIS.

[Grimreaper]

This - over and over and over again - THIS.

They are not casual.

[arkanon]

They are not casual.

Yes, we are. No farming, no bis, no discord, no crazy DKP systems, no private server players, no practice runs, no requirements other than turning up - just a group of ultra casual raid loggers from retail. And many others are sharing the same experience.

There was a video floating around during BWL of someone streaming their clear - and he was mostly afk talking in chat, and was a clicker who openly admitted he had no fucking clue what he was doing. Took them just over 2 hours on their first ever clear, with 25% pugs in the group.

This is called Circular Reasoning - that anyone who clears a classic raid day 1 is not a casual, therefore casuals do not clear raids on day 1, therefore the raids are not as easy as everyone says, because casuals cant clear it day one.

[munkeyinorbit]

They are not casual.

They most certainly are casual. PUGs were 8\9 clearing on my server this last week. Fucking pugs!

I am pretty casual now. I have more interesting things to do then grind then research then bash my head and then clear mythic now. Now I play what I enjoy and if the rewards are right I'll do emmisaties. I don't like mythic plus so my gear is almost exclusively from raids. My neck has always been behind but acceptable level. I rank 3 about half of the esscences because I don't like rep grind or PvP. In BfA my record is clear normal, do half of heroic and then quit raiding because it's now boring. I am the definition of someone who plays casually.

In classic, as soon as I was attuned for MC, Only, Naxx, and for that day when you could attune for bwl, bwl, I stopped the classic grind. I am still have 3 green items in my gear. I am not a good player. I don't get world buffs unless I'm accidently in SW before the raid. Yet, in my third string raid team we cleared AQ 2nd week it was out. We take about 10 pugs and our requirement is show us 1 piece of T2 loot. The RL just couldn't be fucked inspecting people because it just doesn't matter.

If bads like me are clearing AQ40 then you know it is easy. Your looking at about 8000 guilds not including their alt runs and an unknown amount of pugs 8\9 in the first two weeks. That's 320000+ players. Yeah. This is LFR level content. To say otherwise is just being fraudulent.

[Notdev]

People doing 80 minute clears now, after farming the content for 6+ months, isn't the same as clearing a raid in 80 minutes right after it comes out with little to no gear from the raid.

I'd guess zero raids since Ulduar, with the exception of single boss raids and maybe TOC, could be cleared on its hardest difficulty within 1 hour of release, even with 15 years of practice.

[spdr]

Why do you guys compare classic to retail? They're two completely different games at this point and one of the biggest obstacles vanilla had that classic doesnt is players internet.

[Garymorilix]

Log into retail right now and get 20 Ny'alotha geared people and do Mythic Mekkatorque in BoD in one pull.
Or do the Crucible of Storms.
There are 2 tiers old raids, should equal to the same power level as doing AQ in 1.12 gear/talents.

Report back here how it went.

[Zarator8]

Log into retail right now and get 20 Ny'alotha geared people and do Mythic Mekkatorque in BoD in one pull.
Or do the Crucible of Storms.
There are 2 tiers old raids, should equal to the same power level as doing AQ in 1.12 gear/talents.

Report back here how it went.

What exactly changed, between 1.10 and 1.12, that justifies this absurd comparison? Most classes in 1.10 already had the same talents they had in 1.12 (basically everyone except Mages and Rogues - and the latter hardly received any significant buff to their main PvE spec), most items we're using now have the same stats they had in 1.10. Do you really think the game changed drastically somewhere between 1.11.2 and 1.12.0? It didn't - the biggest changes are already behind us, chronologically-wise.

[Samuraijake]

I have not facepalmed this hard in a while. Your argument is "Mythic is harder than anything in classic, so you are not allowed to use that in your argument". Heroic is also harder, and so is normal.

youre quoting the wrong person

[arkanon]

youre quoting the wrong person

No, im not. Im quoting your ridiculous statement about classic not having mythic. People are comparing like for like - the hardest content in classic, with the hardest content in retail. Whether that content is called a raid, or a super-turbo-ultra-mega-raid is completely irreverent.

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What exactly changed, between 1.10 and 1.12, that justifies this absurd comparison? Most classes in 1.10 already had the same talents they had in 1.12 (basically everyone except Mages and Rogues - and the latter hardly received any significant buff to their main PvE spec), most items we're using now have the same stats they had in 1.10. Do you really think the game changed drastically somewhere between 1.11.2 and 1.12.0? It didn't - the biggest changes are already behind us, chronologically-wise.

Right, so i believe (correct me if im wrong) the person you quoted has intentionally created a scenario that is extremely favorable towards the "classic is super duper hard" crowd, and yet still would be entirely unrealistic to achieve. Thats the point, even giving every possible benefit to classic, and making it extremely "easy" in retail, and it still presents a situation that would be EXTREMELY unlikely to result in 1 shots all the way through.

As i have said, many of these mythic fights are so mechanically complex and punishing, that even mid way through the NEXT EXPANSION, 10+ players often fail at them when running for transmog etc. Now, to be clear, a group of mythic raiders who raided at when it was current would still clear it very easily, but, taking an entirely fresh group of inexperienced raiders into a mythic raid, even 2 tiers old, would result in an absolute shit-show.

[Jastall]

Log into retail right now and get 20 Ny'alotha geared people and do Mythic Mekkatorque in BoD in one pull.
Or do the Crucible of Storms.
There are 2 tiers old raids, should equal to the same power level as doing AQ in 1.12 gear/talents.

Report back here how it went.

Eternal Palace would be a more apt comparison, assuming your premise was accurate, which it is not. 1.10 to 1.12 changed jack shit gear wise and talent wise with a small handful of irrelevant exceptions. Meanwhile we basically doubled our DPS going from BoD to Ny'alotha thanks to ilvl, actually usable raid trinkets, corruptions and essences.

And I can guarantee you that M Mekkatorque is harder than anything in AQ40 anyway even now when it is outdated content and AQ is not.

[Draeth]

If they ever do a Legion server, I guarantee you Kil'Jaeden doesn't go down like this.

[Samuraijake]

No, im not. Im quoting your ridiculous statement about classic not having mythic. People are comparing like for like - the hardest content in classic, with the hardest content in retail. Whether that content is called a raid, or a super-turbo-ultra-mega-raid is completely irreverent.

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Right, so i believe (correct me if im wrong) the person you quoted has intentionally created a scenario that is extremely favorable towards the "classic is super duper hard" crowd, and yet still would be entirely unrealistic to achieve. Thats the point, even giving every possible benefit to classic, and making it extremely "easy" in retail, and it still presents a situation that would be EXTREMELY unlikely to result in 1 shots all the way through.

As i have said, many of these mythic fights are so mechanically complex and punishing, that even mid way through the NEXT EXPANSION, 10+ players often fail at them when running for transmog etc. Now, to be clear, a group of mythic raiders who raided at when it was current would still clear it very easily, but, taking an entirely fresh group of inexperienced raiders into a mythic raid, even 2 tiers old, would result in an absolute shit-show.

you're still quoting the wrong person lmfao

[arkanon]

you're still quoting the wrong person lmfao

Post #151 - are you suggesting thats not you? Because i literally hit "reply with quote" and it literally quoted the post. Is this just a pathetic attempt to distance yourself from your own ridiculous claim?

Remember saying this?

"comparing mythic to classic normal/heroic isnt a fair comparison....and there's no Mythic in classic."

Where you trying to suggest something different to what i have said? Why does the lack of mythic in classic have anything to do with this?

[Garfieldkart]

Right, so i believe (correct me if im wrong) the person you quoted has intentionally created a scenario that is extremely favorable towards the "classic is super duper hard" crowd, and yet still would be entirely unrealistic to achieve. Thats the point, even giving every possible benefit to classic, and making it extremely "easy" in retail, and it still presents a situation that would be EXTREMELY unlikely to result in 1 shots all the way through. .

agree. my guild killed mythic uu'nat approximately world 40th, and if we went back into crucible with our full nya'lotha gear we certainly would not kill it within an hour. just a year of rust would wall us i think

[TheLucky1]

Can someone explain to me what these apologist/downplay threads and crowd problem is?

Classic raids are fucking easy.
Tbc raids will be fucking easy.
Wotlk raids will only be marginally harder.

If i would put a average CE guild into each expansions raids with appropriate gear and preparation (not under but also not overgeared) how long do you think above expansions will hold up to mop-wod-legion-bfa?

Yeah.. if you're not delusional you know the answer.

But far, far more important:
Why does it matter? What do these guys have to compensate for? Why do they even argue about this?

Harder difficulty does not and never will equal more fun, look at most nintendo games for example.
It's about appropriate difficulty and many other factors, often entirely depending on the game/genre and most importantly the player himself.

There are many reasons why you could prefer older expansions over retail, but if you argue about the difficulty and complexity of the endgame you're making a clown out of yourself.

[arkanon]

agree. my guild killed mythic uu'nat approximately world 40th, and if we went back into crucible with our full nya'lotha gear we certainly would not kill it within an hour. just a year of rust would wall us i think

Right, and the reality is, although i played vanilla and did the raids, I never touched a PS, so we had 15 years of ring rust and we still cleared it all - and we are a world "its over 9000"th guild (we are not good) in retail. So i guess what im trying to say is if you took the group of ultra casuals i raid with in Classic and threw them into ANY mythic raid this expansion, with 20 players, and full mythic raid gear, we would get absolutely molested - and yet we do absolutely fine in classic, with most players starting after Wrath (as we found out recently).

Again, my usual disclaimer - this is NOT a negative for classic wow - we meet each week to play because we enjoy the simplicity of it. Those of us who want a challenge, play retail, those of us who dont..........stick with classic. Each to their own.

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Harder difficulty does not and never will equal more fun.

ill just jump right in here and point out that is a valid opinion, but thats all it is. Not only is difficulty very important for games, it is a major drawcard for a portion of the player-base. The dark souls series is a prime example, and many of its clones / similar games. There is an entire genre dedicated to difficulty, and as i said, that is a major draw for SOME people. You mention nintendo specifically, and yes, much of their more recent portfolio is...shall we say....casual friendly. But that has not always been the case:

Battletoads
Ninja Gaiden
Ghost n goblins
That fucked up silver surfer game
Punch out
and last but far from least, Contra.

These are games that were on NES or SNES, and none of them are what i would call easy. One of the main complaints about the retro nes and snes consoles is the difficulty of most of the games.

PS - i actually agree with almost everything in your post - especially the "who cares" part - i think i have said this half a dozen times in this thread alone, classic is easy, and thats totally ok

[TheLucky1]

@arkanon yeah sorry i skipped a word or two there, i mean higher difficulty only/specifically just doesn't magically make stuff more fun, it's often also about how it's implemented.

DS series is a great example here, sure it's difficult but also fair.

[arkanon]

@arkanon yeah sorry i skipped a word or two there, i mean higher difficulty only/specifically just doesn't magically make stuff more fun, it's often also about how it's implemented.

DS series is a great example here, sure it's difficult but also fair.

Fair? FAIR? have you even played the bloody game? haha jking, yeah, i agree, and i edited my post when it seemed i was disagreeing with you. I certainly wasnt - and you are again right here - difficulty alone is only going to please a couple of people - the key is balance. Super meat-boy, that game with the dude in the cauldron swinging/jumping up, etc etc, they are games ALMOST entirely based around difficulty, and they are niche at best.