Maldraxxus and Necromancy

[Tharivor]

So since Shadowlands was announced we've heard Maldraxxus described as the origin of Necromancy and inspiration for the Scourge, Liches, and all that stuff. However the more we learn about Shadowlands the more I'm wondering how this fits together? From what I can gather the denizens of Maldraxxus aren't actually undead in the traditional sense of "a spirit imperfectly reattached to the body through shadow magic", but rather they are actually dead spirits given new perfectly fitting but undead-looking (as in rotting flesh, bones, ect.) bodies because they like the aesthetic.

In what way then is Maldraxxus actually related to necromancy as we see it on Azeroth? And if it is necromancy somehow, then why is necromancy universally seen as evil and unnatural on Azeroth when it occurs perfectly naturally and is wielded perfectly honourably/virtuously by its originators in Maldraxxus?
This could I suppose be linked to the question asked elsewhere as to why we were initially told that the Forsaken were emotionally stunted because of the trauma of being raised to undead but now apparently undeath has no moral or emotional repercussions, which is the impression one gets from the characters we meet in Maldraxxus (again if indeed they are undead).

I'll admit to not having played the beta, so can someone tell me if I'm missing something here?

[Super Dickmann]

It's a mess. Liches were originally the orcs with Ner'zhul pushed into bodies, hence their very much non-human skulls, Kel'thuzad aside. The Scourge architecture was based on nerubian architecture. Undeath, as you point out, was the imperfect alignment of the soul to the body, which had moral/emotional costs attached.

Now Liches look like that in Maldraxxus too and the architecture is from there, and they have the tusks and nerubian look for some reason anyway. Despite being entirely astral beings that can shape whatever form they want, including recoloured living ones, like Vashj choosing to go from night elf to naga, they are inexplicably rotten and decayed. I'm unsure if they're even considered undead, since undeath refers to a soul outside the afterlife inhabiting its body outside the order of things. Hell, I'm not sure how undeath works in the first place - how long does it take a soul to reach the Shadowlands? How come Uther and company weren't members of the Blue Man Group when they appeared in Legion? What about the various undead in places like King's Rest, where they've been dead for eons? In-story I mean, obviously the real answer is because Blizzard hadn't invented them yet.

If I had to answer your question I'd say necromancy has a bad rap because undeath in the real world is unnatural in that the soul should be in the Shadowlands not there, which changes the person. Or doesn't respectively, given recent lore (?). Maldraxxus undead aren't really undead any more than people in Bastion or Ardenweald are, because they don't have bodies, they just have shaped something for their souls to inhabit in the afterlife, the fusion of which is perfect, hence why they're unchanged. They just look rotting to sell Scourge nostalgia because they're cosplayers and like looking undead for intimidation.

Reconciling Shadowlands with earlier lore is an exercise in futility. Explaining the afterlife was a humongous mistake that kills the stakes not just now but for all time by nullifying death completely as a factor, especially given the mundanity of the afterlife.

[Gaidax]

I think it's just a matter of perspective, as in not being too over-analyzing every last bit to try and pry out flaws there - that's how people become so petty and salty over the years.

Maldraxxus does a fine job of showing off details of every aspect of Necromancy. How exactly Necromancy came to others outside Shadowlands? Still unclear, we do of course know that there is a way - for example Void can reach Shadowlands - you see it in one quest, so you can imagine there are ways that's not a one-way ticket. Helya also seems to be in the knows, seeing she's chillin' in the Maw. Heck, same is Bwonsamdi, Hakkar and even The Manastorms who are alive but are there for power through some deal with ol' Bobsalami.


The general question of why Maldraxxus is a good guys Necromancy (with a stretch) is simply because Shadowlands are revolving around Death, it's in their nature, culture and what effectively powers them - it is afterlife, after all, so of course death themes are much more acceptable there than in Azeroth, that's a given - you get to understand that questing there - it's a normalcy there.

Maldraxxus specifically is very clearly the very source of Necromancy - you get to experience and learn how just about everything associated with Necromancy is done, whether it's constructs, rituals, plagues or Necropoli.

Why things are rotting and decaying there? You will learn plenty from Emeni questline - often they procure body parts from various sources and then stitch them up to whatever they need and affix the arriving souls to them. Where do you get bodies? Kill denizens of Shadowlands, whether it's beasts or sentients, then use parts. This at the very least is the story for House of Constructs.

Why liches look like they look or some notables seem to retain resemblance to their mortal forms, I don't know... yet. I'm only like 3/9 on covenant campaign and that's how you discover more about Maldraxxus. I have yet to have a man-to-man talk with Kel'thuzad who I know will be featured in campaign down the road as some super duper mega lich, so I imagine explanations will be given there.

All in all - TLDR - just enjoy the ride, if you try to find flaws and inconsistencies you will, but often it's just either information gaps that remain to be filled, so just enjoy the further mystery until it gets explained or remains a mystery.

[Ersula]

It's a mess. Liches were originally the orcs with Ner'zhul pushed into bodies, hence their very much non-human skulls, Kel'thuzad aside. The Scourge architecture was based on nerubian architecture. Undeath, as you point out, was the imperfect alignment of the soul to the body, which had moral/emotional costs attached.

Ner'zhul is the first lich we encounter in the entire franchise. Kel'thuzad is the second lich we encounter in the entire franchise. Death Knights we encounter are not liches, but conceivably *could* be liches under certain circumstances. Besides the fantasy genre using it to simply refer to a powerful undead magic-user, the definition is someone who's soul is magically contained outside its body & therefor does not "pass on" after its body is destroyed.

It's not exactly a ret-con for the Scourge architecture to be based on Nerubian architecture, then reveal that it originates in the shadowlands, as Nerubians were already almost completely taken over by the scourge when we first encounter them. Also, that definition of undeath isn't specified anywhere: Undeath is simply someone who died, but returned. The connotation of undeath, as it differentiates from reviving spells is the body is changed in some way: Calia being a *perfect undead?* she just got pale & her eyes glow now? The forsaken were simply changed by a disease, seemingly designed to make good footsoldiers for the scourge.

Otherwise, its very interesting to see a realm in which are preconceived connotations are thrown out the window. Light & Shadow are equal in the eyes of the Kyrians. Necromancy is a necessary thing in the shadowlands that becomes an abomination when taken to other planes of existence. But actually I think we'll learn that the shadowlands are entirely an abomination: Souls are simply supposed to naturally return to the twisting nether as we were told initially: Kyrians have to ferry them personally seems unnatural, and souls left behind become scourge: Azeroth being cut off from any kind of natural cycle. Sylvanas might be correct: The World is a Prison.

[WaltherLeopold]

It's not exactly a ret-con for the Scourge architecture to be based on Nerubian architecture, then reveal that it originates in the shadowlands, as Nerubians were already almost completely taken over by the scourge when we first encounter them.

Are you saying that the nerubian society saw an architectural revolution in tandem with them being annihilated by the scourge and, so subsequently rearranged and remodelled their entire civilization to match maldraxxus architecture?

Otherwise I don't get it.

[Aucald]

From what I've experienced of Maldraxxus so far, the spirits who arrive at Maldraxxus do so generally in the flesh (more or less), at least to start with. Fighting in the endless conflicts of Maldraxxus and the greater Shadowlands (both internally and externally), they slowly but surely augment themselves in various ways and take on the look of more classic "undead" beings like Liches, Abominations, and so forth. The Necrolords practice a kind of spiritual "recycling" with their anima vaults, taking spirits who've lost their physical forms and re-homing them in construct bodies. You see this directly with a Sethrak spirit known as Emeni, who was previously a construct known as the Slaughter Daughter and becomes so again when you help her regain her abomination-like construct body after she was exiled from the House of Constructs.

Necromancy is kind of a way of life (for lack of a better term) in Maldraxxus, whereas on Azeroth it's seen more as a foreign and profane art due to the sanctity Azerothians place on life itself. I don't know about the whole virtue of it, as the Necrolords are grimly practical as opposed to noble, and while they prize honor as a concept they tend more toward the pragmatic. I think the tie between Maldraxxan Necromancy and Scourge Necromancy as we've experienced really comes down to the idea of uniting soul energy with construct bodies. In the physical universe this binding is always iffy, resulting in the undead we're accustomed to - but in the Shadowlands it has been perfected (or, perhaps more accurately, can be perfected) so that the undead beings of Maldraxxus don't have the limitations or problems of undead beings in the physical universe.

TL;DR in the physical universe Necromancy is a perversion of life and spirit, whereas in the Shadowlands Necromancy is more akin to basic surgery.

[Cyanu]

from my understanding they're the primary source of 'true' necromanctic lore, hence why they let us borrow a couple of necromantic abilities if we join them

unlike the Legion's Necrolytes which are essentially warlocks using soul manipulation spells with their fel magic

[Nerovar]

It doesn't really make any sense. Necromancy is the art of creating Undead through the imperfect joining of souls and (dead) bodies. There are no bodies in the Shadowlands since it's a realm of souls hence there can be no necromancy there.

[Aucald]

It doesn't really make any sense. Necromancy is the art of creating Undead through the imperfect joining of souls and (dead) bodies. There are no bodies in the Shadowlands since it's a realm of souls hence there can be no necromancy there.

The Shadowlands aren't really ephemeral, though - there are living beings there, living in the manner that we're more or less accustomed to. It's a different reality, the reality in which deceased souls from the physical universe are drawn, but it has substance. Necromancy is basically easier to do there, as well, because spirit beings can also exist naturally there.

[Ersula]

Are you saying that the nerubian society saw an architectural revolution in tandem with them being annihilated by the scourge and, so subsequently rearranged and remodelled their entire civilization to match maldraxxus architecture?

Otherwise I don't get it.

Annihilated isn't the right word. And we know Nerubians are also one of the first cultures to experiment with necromancy, so instead we can infer it was a slow & gradual assimilation. They "peered behind the veil" so to speak.

[Houle]

Its because it doesnt make any sense.
Why would necromancy, the magic of reviving dead things, be used in the LITERAL AFTERLIFE, where dead things go anyway after they die. Necromancy only makes sense in the "real world"
Its better not to think about it too hard, bc neither did Blizz.
Maldraxxus is just the most blatant "remember the scourge yall loved?!?" bait they could think of, logic be damned

[Nerovar]

The Shadowlands aren't really ephemeral, though - there are living beings there, living in the manner that we're more or less accustomed to. It's a different reality, the reality in which deceased souls from the physical universe are drawn, but it has substance. Necromancy is basically easier to do there, as well, because spirit beings can also exist naturally there.

I'm gonna need to ask you for a source on that claim. Because from everything I've heard it's just souls that take on certain appearances they like.

[Ersula]

It doesn't really make any sense. Necromancy is the art of creating Undead through the imperfect joining of souls and (dead) bodies. There are no bodies in the Shadowlands since it's a realm of souls hence there can be no necromancy there.

Who's to say there are no bodies? We might not have a direct explaination to much of the shadowlands, but there seem to be people who manifest there with bodies & some who don't: For example, Draka, Vashj & Alexandros all look identical to how they did in life & I don't think they simply made them perfect replicas of their bodies. It seems like some souls manifest in the Shadowlands, with bodies, without bodies & some with their souls in pieces. It could be related to how they died.

- - - Updated - - -

Its because it doesnt make any sense.
Why would necromancy, the magic of reviving dead things, be used in the LITERAL AFTERLIFE, where dead things go anyway after they die. Necromancy only makes sense in the "real world"
Its better not to think about it too hard, bc neither did Blizz.
Maldraxxus is just the most blatant "remember the scourge yall loved?!?" bait they could think of, logic be damned

Necromancy literally means Death Magic. So of course they would use death magic in the world of the dead.

[javierdsv]

Isn't anima well.. Souls? And the shadowlands is powered by souls as a whole?
Isn't the manipulation of the original soul of a given dead body what we call undead?
Isn't also the manipulation of random souls into dead bodies necromancy?

Necromancy is only seen as evil in Azeroth because how it was introduced to the living, and because if incomplete souls are not directly controlled by a sentient being they can become a plague. It is only until recently, thanks to the forsaken, that we've seen the living trying to understand the undead better, as they're not exactly evil if their souls are whole.

[Ersula]

I'm gonna need to ask you for a source on that claim. Because from everything I've heard it's just souls that take on certain appearances they like.

Only in Ardenweald is there any kind of choice involved.

[Aucald]

I'm gonna need to ask you for a source on that claim. Because from everything I've heard it's just souls that take on certain appearances they like.

Basically from the Beta itself. It being another reality comes from several of the Venthyr explaining their role and jobs in the questing content. How the "rules" of souls work kind of depends on the realm - Maldraxxus is full of souls who are fully corporeal, though there are also souls like Emeni who've lost their corporeal forms and are in need of another. Ardenweald, by comparison, generally receives souls as non-corporeal beings who take on other forms if they so choose (mostly as spirit-beasts). In Maldraxxus when you encounter Draka, Vashj, Mograine, and others they're not spirits but physical beings. You will see other spirits who appear as spirits, though; either because they've lost their form or never had one to begin with.

- - - Updated - - -

Isn't anima well.. Souls? And the shadowlands is powered by souls as a whole?
Isn't the manipulation of the original soul of a given dead body what we call undead?
Isn't also the manipulation of random souls into dead bodies necromancy?

Necromancy is only seen as evil in Azeroth because how it was introduced to the living, and because if incomplete souls are not directly controlled by a sentient being they can become a plague. It is only until recently, thanks to the forsaken, that we've seen the living trying to understand the undead better, as they're not exactly evil if their souls are whole.

Souls and anima are related, but not quite the same thing. Anima is soul energy, generated by souls, and also to a degree their substance - you can harvest anima from souls without destroying them (this is what the Venthyr do through their castigation of sinful souls), and even store that anima for later use. A soul specifically is the essential imprint and sentience of a formerly living being, and it both carries and generates varying amounts of anima depending on how powerful it was in life. Pull out all of a soul's anima and you can destroy the soul (like draining a living person of all their blood, so to speak).

[Ersula]

Basically from the Beta itself. It being another reality comes from several of the Venthyr explaining their role and jobs in the questing content. How the "rules" of souls work kind of depends on the realm - Maldraxxus is full of souls who are fully corporeal, though there are also souls like Emeni who've lost their corporeal forms and are in need of another. Ardenweald, by comparison, generally receives souls as non-corporeal beings who take on other forms if they so choose (mostly as spirit-beasts). In Maldraxxus when you encounter Draka, Vashj, Mograine, and others they're not spirits but physical beings. You will see other spirits who appear as spirits, though; either because they've lost their form or never had one to begin with.

After following the lore closely, I think if normally, souls manifest in the Shadowlands with bodies. But those bodies will waste away, like the Brokers, or if you got to the shadowlands another way, (eternal traveler) you need to wear this kind of First one's diving-bell suit to stop your body from wasting away. Kyrians offer to transform you into a Kyrian or build you a constructed body. Maldraxxians let their bodies rot, or augment their bodies with new materials. Venthyr are literally described as being made from mud in Sire Darnathius' name. And Ardenwaeld souls look however they want but if they set their minds on living there they're grown in those pods as Fauns, dyrads or other animals.

[WaltherLeopold]

annihilated isn't the right word. And we know nerubians are also one of the first cultures to experiment with necromancy, so instead we can infer it was a slow & gradual assimilation. They "peered behind the veil" so to speak.

citation needed

[Ersula]

citation needed

Even if it wasn't a slow assimilation: Have you played warcraft 3? The scourge arichecture is literally teleported in wherever they want: From the Shadowlands

[shade076]

Only in Ardenweald is there any kind of choice involved.

Not in beta but don't think this is true. They put a female to male transsexual character into Bastion .