Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[kaminaris]

So for you the only selling point of shadowland is covenant having 1 specific combat ability? Im wonder why some people still play the game... If an expantion without that would has be "bland as water", I guess all expansion since bc are also then...

Thats the problem with people with extremely narrow horizon, all you can see is one additional button... in a feature that has so much more content, story and replayability.

Also you are so wrong about "all expansions since BC", which is basically only true for WoD.

[Thorcall]

Thats the problem with people with extremely narrow horizon, all you can see is one additional button... in a feature that has so much more content, story and replayability.

Also you are so wrong about "all expansions since BC", which is basically only true for WoD.

I didn't say that they souldn't have add covenant, but that I agree with thestawman that making covenant ability a talent row AND adding covenant without the ability could have prevent a lot of trouble, and if that was the anouncement from the start I don't think a lot of people would have dislike it.

Tell me exactly which ability, talents or anything power related were lock behind mini-factions during previous expansion please .

For your debate about C&S, I didn't read all previous 28 pages but... This essence is taken by almost every spec, not because its dps gain in mono target (even tho its very good for a lot of spec), but because this essence work the same in aoe (try to aoe with crucible of flame...), increase your survivability (more important in progress, that why some people remove it now on short fight, remember that you need to stack it so now with very short fight its less effective, but who care about what is better 5 month after a raid release...), and because in reality this essence perform better than sims tell you, since the slow from corruption proc it which help a lot for stacking.

I didn't like that you needed to do pvp to get it, but come on this farm is easy, just a bit annoying, and not having it for a mythic player is just moronic.

[Krakan]

Nah he is correct. There are people in top 20 that don't have neither of those essences in practically every spec. So if you can go to top 20 without it, its absolutely optional and you just need to git gud. PS I just checked nzoth mythic top logs for every dps spec.

Yes by having full bis and a extremely stacked raid you can use the cheese strat that allows that. That tactic isnt available till you farm mythic znoth and have a extremely strict comp...

[kaminaris]

I didn't say that they souldn't have add covenant, but that I agree with thestawman that making covenant ability a talent row AND adding covenant without the ability could have prevent a lot of trouble, and if that was the anouncement from the start I don't think a lot of people would have dislike it.

Tell me exactly which ability, talents or anything power related were lock behind mini-factions during previous expansion please .

For your debate about C&S, I didn't read all previous 28 pages but... This essence is taken by almost every spec, not because its dps gain in mono target (even tho its very good for a lot of spec), but because this essence work the same in aoe (try to aoe with crucible of flame...), increase your survivability (more important in progress, that why some people remove it now on short fight, remember that you need to stack it so now with very short fight its less effective, but who care about what is better 5 month after a raid release...), and because in reality this essence perform better than sims tell you, since the slow from corruption proc it which help a lot for stacking.

I didn't like that you needed to do pvp to get it, but come on this farm is easy, just a bit annoying, and not having it for a mythic player is just moronic.

First of all, you were locked in MoP behind having a cloak - it was a faction and some grind just without choice.
WoD - garrison gave you free mythic loot, locked behind table mission
Legion - do I even need to say how much was "locked" behind order halls? Just without any choice.

and no, C&S isn't taken by most specs, especially not as major. Look at logs again.
Yes versa is nice because of reductions but again it is not mandatory at all.

And yes if you want to have absolute best I don't see a problem with locking it behind pvp. I didn't do it because I hate pvp in wow. And no, it's not "moronic". Moronic is thinking that you need to have it.

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Yes by having full bis and a extremely stacked raid you can use the cheese strat that allows that. That tactic isnt available till you farm mythic znoth and have a extremely strict comp...

Or just not use it and take something else because that 0.5% dps isn't going to give you extreme advantage. You don't need either of those things, you need people that don't fail and don't die easily.

[Thorcall]

So let me resume that, for you having a quest to get a legendary item, doing mission table or having an class fief is the same thing as chosing and be lock in a covenant ? I guess that why we can't agree...

Again, C&S is taken by most spec (for his minor, who talk about major?), just because you find some people who don't use it doesn't mean its not better. Some use very specific composition with wordvein and formless void, but that not a majority and nobody do that on progress. I'm not claiming it's mandatory, but it's just better than most overhall. I also don't tell that you have to get it, if you doesn't play at high enough level you can do whatever you want.

[kaminaris]

So let me resume that, for you having a quest to get a legendary item, doing mission table or having an class fief is the same thing as chosing and be lock in a covenant ? I guess that why we can't agree...

Again, C&S is taken by most spec (for his minor, who talk about major?), just because you find some people who don't use it doesn't mean its not better. Some use very specific composition with wordvein and formless void, but that not a majority and nobody do that on progress. I never claim that it was mandatory, but that its just overhall better. I also don't tell that you have to get it, if you doesn't play at high enough level you can do whatever you want.

You are not being locked, you can change covenant, you are also not being assigned at random. So there is no problem.

High enough level is basically only reserved for world first 50 guilds. This is the level where it might actually make a difference. And even if, it is very very very marginally better. Calculate that yourself.

[Thorcall]

You are not locked but right now on the beta changing can take more than two weeks.

For you only top 50 guild care about optimisation? Again, im not saying its mandatory. But its still better, you say 0.5% but its also ~3% damage reduction, its more than 0.5% in aoe ect.

[Vampyrr]

Or just not use it and take something else because that 0.5% dps isn't going to give you extreme advantage. You don't need either of those things, you need people that don't fail and don't die easily.

Most serious raiders do whatever it takes to get that 0.5% dps. The ones who dont arent serious about raiding and this isnt as big a deal for them.

[Soon-TM]

likely cause people want balance to be like .5% difference between specs/class when in reality 10% should be acceptable between specs/classes.

The problem that you won't have 10% deltas, much less .5%. Think about something like 20%, if Legion/BfA are any hint.

[cparle87]

this is a good question, and the answer we can not know. but i offer an assumption here: by the data blizz has and we do not have.

when you look at lets say 10.000 ppl from mmoc, its a hillarious minority in comparrisson to the complete player base blizz have in wow. the data blizz have about them, maybe says them other things, than 10.000 mmoc ppl think/say (even when they would have all the same oppinion).

and be sure here: they have A LOT of data. i work in this business/industry since 20 years. if you control the complete game, design, servers, subs... everything, you would be surprised HOW MUCH you can tell about your customers. and how effective this works (foremost paired with good marketing).

so my bet here as answer to your question is: Blizzards own data.

I've brought up this point before, that Blizzard has the data, but it only ends with me getting called a shill or a white knight or an ass kisser. I've even pointed out that the mega threads with thousands of posts are still a tiny less than 1% of the playerbase, to no avail. I pointed out that you could have every mmo-champs poster agree with you and still have it to be a fraction of a percent. But people don't see reality.

[Specialka]

No, you can't really go on, because I don't think I missed any others. I did check, but it's after midnight and I am tired and, importantly, you were too lazy to go and present the info yourself.

Importantly though, it's irrelevant. My central point is, and has been all along, that the benefit of having that essence is very, very small indeed. And I think you know this, which is why you'd rather play the person rather than the argument being made.

Seriously, are going to insist that a few 100 dps, less than 0.5% (and in most cases less than 0.1%) is critical in being able to do the content? Because that is what I am refuting. Your complaint is that the grind is mandatory, and I am demonstrating that it isn't. And you keep sidestepping that issue, presumably because you have no answer to it.

The only valid complaint you might have is that you might not get accepted into a guild. But no guild in the world is going to reject a player on the basis of the 10 or 50 dps loss that not having that essence means. What a lot of guilds might reject you for is being too damn lazy to go out and put in the minor amount of effort it takes to get that insignificant dps increase. And that is the crux of the "problem" of these so called forced grinds: They're enforced not by the game, but by other players. Which means your efforts to fight against systems that reward effort are misguided, because exclusive players will always find a means of keeping their group exclusive to those willing to put in the most effort.

It is smaller now, thanks to the stupid amp stats corruptions, but in 8.2, CnS was the top essences for most specs. And even now, Cns is still present in the top 3 minor essences you should have.

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Nah he is correct. There are people in top 20 that don't have neither of those essences in practically every spec. So if you can go to top 20 without it, its absolutely optional and you just need to git gud. PS I just checked nzoth mythic top logs for every dps spec.

There are people now in the logs that are able to clear the content and would not be able to do it prior to essences. In february, everyoe had CnS because it was one of the best essences you could get.

[Krakan]

First of all, you were locked in MoP behind having a cloak - it was a faction and some grind just without choice.
WoD - garrison gave you free mythic loot, locked behind table mission
Legion - do I even need to say how much was "locked" behind order halls? Just without any choice.

and no, C&S isn't taken by most specs, especially not as major. Look at logs again.
Yes versa is nice because of reductions but again it is not mandatory at all.

And yes if you want to have absolute best I don't see a problem with locking it behind pvp. I didn't do it because I hate pvp in wow. And no, it's not "moronic". Moronic is thinking that you need to have it.

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Or just not use it and take something else because that 0.5% dps isn't going to give you extreme advantage. You don't need either of those things, you need people that don't fail and don't die easily.

It isn't 0.5 dps...

If you have to constantly lie to support your argument it isn't that good of a argument. I am not even sure what I am supposed to refute here...

It's like the kid who writes " god did it" for every question on a test because he thinks its clever.

[Echo of Soul]

It is smaller now, thanks to the stupid amp stats corruptions, but in 8.2, CnS was the top essences for most specs. And even now, Cns is still present in the top 3 minor essences you should have.

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There are people now in the logs that are able to clear the content and would not be able to do it prior to essences. In february, everyoe had CnS because it was one of the best essences you could get.

Oh so you have to clear the content fast as hell. Why is that exactly? The old tried method of coming back next week with better gear isn't good enough?

[Aggrophobic]

It seems that with Shadowlands we will see one of the most varied gameplay ever in the history of WoW. Thanks to the covenant system, not only will your character have different special abilities depending on your choice, but will also be able to bring unique buffs to certain dungeons. An average player will look at those things and think to themselves "how cool - I can do all those things based on the way I built my character". Unfortunately, all of this entertainment is potentially in jeopardy. Why? Because once again, a small albeit vocal subset of players is campaigning against all those things. They want to diminish the impact of our decisions, make everything uniform and meaningless. Some are downright asking for removal of half the new features. To what end? Supposedly to "level the playing field". To make "high end" mythic+ "fair", to make "mythic raiding at the top end" fair. Many other buzzwords related to competitiveness in the game are being used to excuse the gutting of the very interactive and immersive game feature. Will the game be eroded once again, because of dreams of the vocal minority? Will covenants turn into a cosmetic choice just because Johnny Bravo and his friend want to do a +30 key in SL and don't want to feel they are forced into a certain covenant?

It is very sad, because in a way it reflects the situation in real life. A lot of people ignore elections and can't, or don't want to engage in politics for various reasons. What often ends up happening is a clique of people fighting only for their own interests raises to power and just keeps making the life shit for everyone else. The worst part about it is they usually manage to convince a portion of regular people that the interests of these assholes somehow align with the interests of regular people. The same thing has been happening for a couple years in the WoW community. Blizzard listens too much to "content creators" who like to flip flop in their opinions just to increase viewer counts. Even the more "positive" content creators are afraid to be too outspoken about enjoying the new features because they fear ostracism, trolling and bullying. Content creators don't exist in a vacuum, and if they want to be relevant, they have to cooperate with others to an extent. The "positive" content creators are only as positive as the "community overlords" allow them to usually.

Can the regular players do nothing against all that? Can we try to rally the casual players to voice their positive opinions on the forums? I know I will be encouraging people who usually lay low to speak up. As players of WoW, we can't let the game be hijacked by top50 raiding guilds and top10 mythic+ teams. Let's not let them destroy our fun.

No, the game play is not varied but if you happen to pick the wrong covenant you won't have a place in any serious (or any) group for some parts of the content.
Theres nothing possitive about this limitation. It's just Blizzard being poor designers. You get a few talents but this time you can't respec them becuase Blizzard wants to... Heck, I don't know what they want but they clearly don't understand the game they are designing.

In any case, they took what looked to be a rather good expansion and ruined it. At this point it looks to be one of, if not the worst expansion to date.

[Specialka]

Oh so you have to clear the content fast as hell. Why is that exactly? The old tried method of coming back next week with better gear isn't good enough?

Clearing the content now is not the same as clearing it 4 or 5 months ago.

[Elias01]

No, the game play is not varied but if you happen to pick the wrong covenant you won't have a place in any serious (or any) group for some parts of the content.
Theres nothing possitive about this limitation. It's just Blizzard being poor designers. You get a few talents but this time you can't respec them becuase Blizzard wants to... Heck, I don't know what they want but they clearly don't understand the game they are designing.

In any case, they took what looked to be a rather good expansion and ruined it. At this point it looks to be one of, if not the worst expansion to date.

Even if you pick right covenant for certain part of content in other parts it wont bee good choice. And by parts i m NOT talking about mythic+ vs raiding vs pvp. I am talking about dungeon vs dungeon vs raid boss vs bg vs arena vs 3v3 vs 5v5, etc... Nobady will ever be optimal. Nobady.

[Aggrophobic]

Even if you pick right covenant for certain part of content in other parts it wont bee good choice. And by parts i m NOT talking about mythic+ vs raiding vs pvp. I am talking about dungeon vs dungeon vs raid boss vs bg vs arena vs 3v3 vs 5v5, etc... Nobady will ever be optimal. Nobady.

Yeah, thats the problem. You either level 2, 3 or 4 of the same class or you'll be replaced. Why pick a suboptimally speced player when you can get someone that actually has the right "talents"?

A system that is designed so that you can't play well is just bad.

[Raelbo]

Most serious raiders do whatever it takes to get that 0.5% dps.

I don't think anyone is trying to refute that.

What I am refuting is the assertion that the game forces it. My contention is that people do it themselves.

Does anyone here honestly believe that if CnS was a weak essence that wasn't viable for raids that suddenly all those players who went to the effort to grind it out would suddenly sit back and not spend that saved time grinding something else for some other 0.01% dps gain? Of course not.

It is not, nor has it ever been, the game which dictates the upper limit on how much time and effort competitive players will put into trying to squeeze out a small advantage over the next player. And while the game does demand a certain amount of time and effort to complete the harder content, that amount is a lot less than what some people would like to have us believe.

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It isn't 0.5 dps...

You're not wrong. For most specs it's closer to 0.1%

[Specialka]

I don't think anyone is trying to refute that.

What I am refuting is the assertion that the game forces it. My contention is that people do it themselves.

Does anyone here honestly believe that if CnS was a weak essence that wasn't viable for raids that suddenly all those players who went to the effort to grind it out would suddenly sit back and not spend that saved time grinding something else for some other 0.01% dps gain? Of course not.

It is not, nor has it ever been, the game which dictates the upper limit on how much time and effort competitive players will put into trying to squeeze out a small advantage over the next player. And while the game does demand a certain amount of time and effort to complete the harder content, that amount is a lot less than what some people would like to have us believe.

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You're not wrong. For most specs it's closer to 0.1%

The gap was greater in the 8.2, making it a must have. With corruption amp stats, versatility has lowered in the stat weight. It is still in the top 3 minor essences for most specs.

[Krakan]

I don't think anyone is trying to refute that.

What I am refuting is the assertion that the game forces it. My contention is that people do it themselves.

Does anyone here honestly believe that if CnS was a weak essence that wasn't viable for raids that suddenly all those players who went to the effort to grind it out would suddenly sit back and not spend that saved time grinding something else for some other 0.01% dps gain? Of course not.

It is not, nor has it ever been, the game which dictates the upper limit on how much time and effort competitive players will put into trying to squeeze out a small advantage over the next player. And while the game does demand a certain amount of time and effort to complete the harder content, that amount is a lot less than what some people would like to have us believe.

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You're not wrong. For most specs it's closer to 0.1%

I don't get you... are you so desperate to win you are trying to somehow bend hard numbers around you?

It's been explained to you multiple times to the point I am surprised your not dinged for trolling or attempting to derail the conversation.

The game has never been balanced as you claim it has been and it won't be balanced like that in sl.there is always going to be a right choice that overshadows all the others for specific types of content.