[Spoilers] Shadowlands: Afterlives Cinematic Discussion

[Combatbutler]

but then again, if Uther's blue half reemerged with gold soul then what about the Uther in the tomb? I take it that it left him again when he became a Forsworn

I bet he will fuse with it at some point in the xpack and thus truly ascend, earning his smurf look.

[Jester Joe]

I'd agree that, all in all, Kael's goals were more generally or broadly altruistic than Fandral's - but on the same token, I wouldn't call Fandral's goal to resurrect his son as driven by anger or powerlust. He sold Teldrassil under the auspices of restoring the Night Elves' immortality, but his true goal was resurrecting Valstann. I can sympathize with the man on that score, even if what he did to achieve that goal was less than savory (e.g. poisoning Malfurion and trusting Xavius).

Kael'thas, too, wasn't solely altruistic or completely selfless - he was partly driven by his own perceived inadequacies and imposter syndrome of a sort, which were the flaws in his personality that later Fel exposure worsened and eventually turned into a true pathology. He wanted his people to love him, and sought in part to become their savior to cover for his own beliefs that his time in Dalaran made them look at him as uninvolved or uncaring.

Both Fandral and Kael'thas are pretty complicated personality-wise, all in all.

Admittedly I'm mostly going by this to jog my memory-
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fandral_Staghelm

Which refers to him as being hot-heading from even before anything. It also mentions though after Ragnaros takes Fandral, that he seems to be more stable which is moreso why I'm also not finding the two to be comparable as much since if Ragnaros had a way to cleanse Fandral of his insanity, and Fandral STILL aligned with him while seeking others to do so, I don't think that falls into "good intentions". And the "power hungry" part coming from that he intentionally tried to keep Malfurion out of the picture as long as possible while also repeatedly clashing with Tyrande

Personal tragedy is the starting point for both, Kael's was greater and more pressing, which is most likely why he descended much quicker to madness.

The threat of your people dying out isn't a "personal tragedy" though, it's a far larger scale threat. Hence why I'm saying Fandral's started in a desire that was self-serving at least, and didn't benefit the Night elves themselves or even look to benefit them (In regards to his desire to get his son back).

[Aucald]

but then again, if Uther's blue half reemerged with gold soul then what about the Uther in the tomb? I take it that it left him again when he became a Forsworn

Uther became Forsworn because he couldn't overcome his doubt (what the Kyrians collectively call hanging on to one's prior selfdom) - the state of his soul doesn't really figure into that beyond the wound to his soul being a constant reminder of what was done to him. The portion of him that remained in Frostmourne for a time explains both his appearance in HoR/ICC, as well as his later appearance at his tomb. A portion of Uther basically remains tethered to the mortal realm as a shade, able to at times interact with the physical universe.

[Combatbutler]

Uther became Forsworn because he couldn't overcome his doubt (what the Kyrians collectively call hanging on to one's prior selfdom) - the state of his soul doesn't really figure into that beyond the wound to his soul being a constant reminder of what was done to him. The portion of him that remained in Frostmourne for a time explains both his appearance in HoR/ICC, as well as his later appearance at his tomb. A portion of Uther basically remains tethered to the mortal realm as a shade, able to at times interact with the physical universe.

The clip pretty much implies that he couldn't ascend, because he wasn't whole though, still feeling the blade in his chest.

[Mehrunes]

Fandral sought to usurp power, and lusted for vengeance over the loss of his son.

Kael'thas was actually looking for a way to save his people though, just regardless of the source it came from.

Not in 2.4 he didn't. Unless summoning KJ to the cultural heart of Quel'Thalas and then threatening us with the burning of the entire world (that most of his people lived on) was somehow supposed to help the Blood Elves out.

Also, like @Thage said, Fandral didn't oppose Tyrande and Malf just because, but because he viewer their leadership as wrong for their people.

[TheFirstOnes]

You’ll have to remind me what he said about Arthas after ICC, but it’s implied in the cinematic that Uther’s soul was split in two by Frostmourne meaning that only part of his soul went to the afterlife. It stands to reason that’s why he’s around on Azeroth at all while also being in the afterlife. The Uther we see in game might be the half that is forgiving and the other half is the one that is more negative.

He actually only stated that he tries to remember the good parts of Arthas, and not the sick and twisted Arthas that slaughtered a countless amount of people cause he wanted to.

Also a reminder that only the ICC version of Uther's soul said that. NOT Bastion Uther's soul. We see ICC Uther's soul once more in Legion.

[Aucald]

Admittedly I'm mostly going by this to jog my memory-
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Fandral_Staghelm

Which refers to him as being hot-heading from even before anything. It also mentions though after Ragnaros takes Fandral, that he seems to be more stable which is moreso why I'm also not finding the two to be comparable as much since if Ragnaros had a way to cleanse Fandral of his insanity, and Fandral STILL aligned with him while seeking others to do so, I don't think that falls into "good intentions". And the "power hungry" part coming from that he intentionally tried to keep Malfurion out of the picture as long as possible while also repeatedly clashing with Tyrande

Hotheaded, surely, but insofar as informing his goals that's more just a personality trait. Tyrande is a bit hotheaded herself, at times. The events of Stormrage and confronting the false shade of Valstann (actually a projection of Xavius) pretty much left Fandral's sanity in weeping tatters, and he was locked in a Barrow Den a gibbering mess of a man. When he joined Ragnaros he was more stable (relative to his previous state at the close of Stormrage), but still bore all the corrupted hallmarks of his experience with the Nightmare and Xavius' effect on his sanity. Basically he was still crazy, just no longer the gibbering and screaming at nothing kind of crazy.

Prior to his downfall, he kept Malfurion out of the picture because Malfurious could put the kibosh on the whole Teldrassil experiment, and he clashed with Tyrande both because she opposed it as well and she was trying to wake Malfurion - basically anything he could do secure and hold on to power until he succeeded in resurrecting Valstann and restoring the Night Elves' immortality so he would never lose him again. That was Fandral's primary and overarching goal.

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The clip pretty much implies that he couldn't ascend, because he wasn't whole though, still feeling the blade in his chest.

He actually is ascended though, that's why he has wings even as one of the Forsworn. Feeling the blade in his chest was just a continual reminder of "doubt," or the memories of his living self.

[Jester Joe]

Not in 2.4 he didn't. Unless summoning KJ to the cultural heart of Quel'Thalas and then threatening us with the burning of the entire world (that most of his people lived on) was somehow supposed to help the Blood Elves out.

Also, like @Thage said, Fandral didn't oppose Tyrande and Malf just because, but because he viewer their leadership as wrong for their people.

I mean, we just had the same exact thing happen in Legion with the Nightborne.

Whether or not its the best lifestyle, it has been shown that the Legion does accept races who swear loyalty to them. And Kael'thas saw firsthanded how the fel seemed to be able to cure the blood elves of their magic addiction (or at least sate it).

[Combatbutler]

He actually is ascended though, that's why he has wings even as one of the Forsworn. Feeling the blade in his chest was just a continual reminder of "doubt," or the memories of his living self.

Ascended in the way that he was brought to that stage, despite not being ready. Uther's mindset is very much the one of an aspirant and he will have to fix that in order to become a true blue smurf

[Aucald]

Ascended in the way that he was brought to that stage, despite not being ready. Uther's mindset is very much the one of an aspirant and he will have to fix that in order to become a true blue smurf

Well, agreed on that score - he definitely wasn't ready (which he pretty much told Devos outright). But insofar as the rite of Ascension goes, the state of his soul wasn't really a factor. There are other Forsworn Ascended Kyrians who don't have Uther's condition, either. Devos plowed ahead because she basically agreed with Uther's desire for "justice" and due to her own wounded pride at being ignored by the Kyrestia the Firstborne.

[Combatbutler]

Well, agreed on that score - he definitely wasn't ready (which he pretty much told Devos outright). But insofar as the rite of Ascension goes, the state of his soul wasn't really a factor. There are other Forsworn Ascended Kyrians who don't have Uther's condition, either. Devos plowed ahead because she basically agreed with Uther's desire for "justice" and due to her own wounded pride at being ignored by the Kyrestia the Firstborne.

Which is the wrong way to go after all, the path might have flaws, but they are minuscule. Kyrians should just look the memories of the aspirants through and help them overcome any possible trauma and then flush it all down.

I mean they already store all the memories in a vault, so they should be able to easily perfect the path.

[Garymorilix]

Pretty much like this

https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...mal/970560.jpg

I mean, Garrosh does not necessarily have to go to the Maw.

Afterall, if you fail in Revendreth you might just be converted into raw anima and be part of the thing.

[Combatbutler]

I mean, Garrosh does not necessarily have to go to the Maw.

Afterall, if you fail in Revendreth you might just be converted into raw anima and be part of the thing.

If you die that is, but if you fail their trial they throw you to the maw.

[Ardenaso]

shade

um what? even if his souls merged again after WotLK he can still interact as of Legion as a shade?

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also, I wish before Uther yeeted him into the Maw there was an echo like a callback from WC3:

"I dearly hope there is a special place in Hell waiting for you, Arthas"

[Aucald]

um what? even if his souls merged again after WotLK he can still interact as of Legion as a shade?

His soul didn't merge again after WotLK, though. Uther #1 was taken to Bastion by the Kyrians, and Uther #2 is basically a restless shade or spirit bound to Azeroth, apparently still loitering around his tomb in WPL.

[Ardenaso]

His soul didn't merge again after WotLK, though. Uther #1 was taken to Bastion by the Kyrians, and Uther #2 is basically a restless shade or spirit bound to Azeroth, apparently still loitering around his tomb in WPL.

I got the idea that his doubts were because the souls merged and that Uther had second thoughts coming from what the blue Uther saw and felt like the post-WotLK turn in

[Nero Duskwind]

Seems like Uther was sort of split in two - with Frostmourne claiming part of his essence, and the rest going on to the Shadowlands. This might explain the apparent contradictions in his character, as the Uther in Bastion may well be missing certain aspects of his selfdom, those drained away by Frostmourne.

My guess is that Uther had a profoundly strong connection to the light, similar to Sir Zeliek. His prayer before his death, "Light, save my soul," may likely be why Frostmourne only partially consumed him. It looked like there was a literal tug of war between the Light and Frostmourne and it would explain the unspeakable amount of agony felt in Uther's death wail as his very life essence was being forcibly ripped in half. This short successfully gives the viewer an intimate feeling of how deep Arthas's betrayal struck.

[Graden]

"Remember Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

- Uther, Warcraft III.

[Combatbutler]

"Remember Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

- Uther, Warcraft III.

Which is why he called it "justice" ;p

Besides why are you expecting consistency from blizz after all the details they shove aside each and every expansion.

[Aucald]

Which is why he called it "justice" ;p

Besides why are you expecting consistency from blizz after all the details they shove aside each and every expansion.

"Remember Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

- Uther, Warcraft III.

Nothing really prevents Uther from being a hypocrite, either.