Does Arthas deserve to be in the Maw?

[mysticx]

No one deserves to be in the Maw if that means eternal damnation. No criminal could be justly punished with that.

Oh, i don't know, i think damning countless people to endless torment as (part of) an undead monstrosity (Or to suffer in the maw, purely for personal gain) comes pretty darn close...

[Super Kami Dende]

Sure, Just make it the Matthias Lehner part of his soul that remained innocent.

[Harbour]

Arthas did nothing wrong. Burning Legion for example is way more guilty.

[Kumorii]

You missed the part where Arthas straight up mentally kills Nerzhul and was no longer in control. Arthas was.

Wouldn't that mean that the argument that Arthas wasn't in control of his actions as soon as he picked up the sword moot as well?
It's seems like a common argument as of how Arthas is still a good guy because of that, but to me having the mental fortitude to kill the one trying to control you sure is greater than withstanding whispers by proxy...no?

I don't even get why people want to make him into a good guy either...he never was, which is what made wc3 story a good story for me.

[Engal]

There is no question about this. He did not deserved it.

He would have been sent to Revendreth, hell, there are even people there that destroyed their homeworld but were judged redeemable.What Arthas did was far from that.

Moreover, We also learn that the Jailer was influencing, controlling people inside the Helm, so at this point, we can't even say that Arthas was in control of himself the moment he picked up frostmourne ( Maw Weapon, controlled by Nerzhul, and influenced by Nerzhul ) his soul became tainted, something else. And when he took the helm, he may have been in direct control of the Jailer and let him overcome him. They weren't two inside the helm, but at least three, and since this helm was far more ancient than we knew, they might be even more people battling for control inside, from previous countless users.

Arthas was flawed, yes, but he was redeemable.

[MikeBogina]

Arthas, the true Arthas that was the first soul taken by Frostmourne, that pops back up as he dies? No, he's innocent.
DK Arthas formed by the Lich King and Frostmourne who later became the Lich King and as I speculated for years before Chronicles, that he was trying to save the world who recently was revealed to be trying to save the world? #ArthasDidNothingWrong

[Timester]

Arthas did nothing wrong. Burning Legion for example is way more guilty.

This kind of argument is so flawed. The existence of one evil doesnt wipe the other. No, both are evil.

Arthas, even before picked up the Frostmourne, was a whiny bastard that only cared about his "retribution". Then he went above and kicked Ner'zhul out of the equation.

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Arthas, the true Arthas that was the first soul taken by Frostmourne, that pops back up as he dies? No, he's innocent.
DK Arthas formed by the Lich King and Frostmourne who later became the Lich King and as I speculated for years before Chronicles, that he was trying to save the world who recently was revealed to be trying to save the world? #ArthasDidNothingWrong

We know it ever since WC3, that Ner'zhul wanted to fight the Legion. It's Ner'zhul's plan, not Arthas.

[Xorzor]

Does Arthas deserve to be in the Maw? Maybe not, but I know of plenty of people IRL who do. With that said, moving on... For real, does Arthas deserve it?

Hard to say. He was a bit bloodthirsty when it came to "cleansing" Stratholme. But can one crime alone really condemn a soul to the Maw?

Stratholme may have qualified him for Revendreth, but I'd imagine patricide would've condemned him to the Maw for sure. It's not like his dad was a horrible tyrant.

Perhaps he is redeemable. But Ner'zhul definitely isn't.

[dirk123]

Depends really. Only bad things Arthas WITH A SOUL did was purging Stratholme (Arguably) and betraying the men and mercenaries that fought for him in Northrend.
So would the Arbiter judge Arthas on only his actions with soul or also his actions without a soul after he picked up Frostmourne.
If the previous, he probably would have been sent to Revendreth or Maldraxxus. If the latter, he would have been destined for the Maw anyways.

Sylvanas unlike Arthas had her soul (albeit twisted) while carrying out all her bad acts, hence why in Edge of Night short story she was in the Maw.

[Engal]

Arthas, even before picked up the Frostmourne, was a whiny bastard that only cared about his "retribution".

Not deserving the Maw then. It's not 'evil' either

Then he went above and kicked Ner'zhul out of the equation.

We don't know all the specific yet. As I said before, the helm contain also the influence of the Jailer, and they were maybe more than three inside. We could learn that it was not Arthas who kicked Nerzhul, but someone else, and that Arthas was not in control anymore #retcon.

so for me this last argument is not pertinent.


Moreover, as someone stated, Arthas " died " and his soul was the first claimed by frostmourne, so, as a matter of Fact, his living did where only the one coming before.

The rest was not up to him.


This argument might also apply to Sylvanas until she was free from Nerzhul's influence

Moreover, we learn in SL that even guys who DESTROYED THEIR HOMELAND have been sent to Revendreth.

Purging Stratholme or killing your father is not something that would deserve you to go to the Maw


The Maw is for those who are deemed " unredeemable ", whose soul were put on trial, and if the trial would fail => the Maw.
Or for those who threatens the very balance of the Shadowlands.

Arthas is redeemable, and he do not threatens the balance of Shadowlands.

[Combatbutler]

Depends really. Only bad things Arthas WITH A SOUL did was purging Stratholme (Arguably) and betraying the men and mercenaries that fought for him in Northrend.
So would the Arbiter judge Arthas on only his actions with soul or also his actions without a soul after he picked up Frostmourne.
If the previous, he probably would have been sent to Revendreth or Maldraxxus. If the latter, he would have been destined for the Maw anyways.

Sylvanas unlike Arthas had her soul (albeit twisted) while carrying out all her bad acts, hence why in Edge of Night short story she was in the Maw.

What Arthas has done as the lich king isn't enough to warrant the maw, there are others in revendreth, who caused far more devastation than the lich king.

By the current metric none of the mortal bosses we ever faced would go to the maw.

[Eapoe]

Depends on what we learn about Frostmourne. It could be that Arthas was the first real victim of the blade, slowly made into an undead puppet with little to no control over his own actions. Since his soul was not judged, who can say at this point if he was irredeemable, or yet another innocent fed into the maw, we'll find out soon. I mean hell, it could be his selfless actions (yes, burning a city to save a kingdom can be selfless, and sacrificing your body and soul too) could have put him into house Bastion in the end. Sounds like a thing Blizzard would do.

But he didn’t burn a city or sacrifice himself for selfless reasons. He burnt his city, so to speak, with innocent people in it that he could have taken alternative measures to try and help. He also didn’t sacrifice his own body, he sacrificed his soul to gain power for revenge. That’s selfish, not selfless.
As for Frostmourne, Arthas committed atrocities before he found the blade. Stratholme was before the blade. Killing indigenous people, scuttling his own ships, and betraying his own sailors and people after making landfall in Northrend was before the blade. Leaving Magni to die after just finding Frostmourne was before he was completely corrupted, and was actually just the start of it. He was a terrible person before he was corrupted, if he even was corrupted, by possessing Frostmourne and the Helm of Dominion.

[Tyze]

Where is Ner'zul in Shadowlands?

[Combatbutler]

Where is Ner'zul in Shadowlands?

I'd say revendreth, but we don't know if there was enough left of him after Arthas was done with him , he tore Ner'zhul more or less to shreds

[Eapoe]

What Arthas has done as the lich king isn't enough to warrant the maw, there are others in revendreth, who caused far more devastation than the lich king.

By the current metric none of the mortal bosses we ever faced would go to the maw.

It’s not just about actions, but how the person was during them. If Arthas committed every heinous act without any bit of grief or guilt then it means he is not able to be redeemed. If someone is not capable of feeling those emotions then they don’t exist to make someone better.
Since I’ve brought it up before and have to do it again, Arthas purged Stratholme. He didn’t attempt to save anyone, nor did he show any guild over it. He made his mind up that it was the only way to stop the spread and never gave a second thought to another way being possible. No remorse over slaughtering innocents is pretty irredeemable. He also betrayed people in Northrend, as well as his friend Magni. He felt no remorse or guild for them that we’ve ever been shown or told about.
Blizzard already ruined one good characters arc and tragic downfall by giving them a redemption arc thru Illidan. I really hope they don’t try anything with Arthas other than a mention of his suffering and deserved fate.

[Combatbutler]

It’s not just about actions, but how the person was during them. If Arthas committed every heinous act without any bit of grief or guilt then it means he is not able to be redeemed. If someone is not capable of feeling those emotions then they don’t exist to make someone better.
Since I’ve brought it up before and have to do it again, Arthas purged Stratholme. He didn’t attempt to save anyone, nor did he show any guild over it. He made his mind up that it was the only way to stop the spread and never gave a second thought to another way being possible. No remorse over slaughtering innocents is pretty irredeemable. He also betrayed people in Northrend, as well as his friend Magni. He felt no remorse or guild for them that we’ve ever been shown or told about.
Blizzard already ruined one good characters arc and tragic downfall by giving them a redemption arc thru Illidan. I really hope they don’t try anything with Arthas other than a mention of his suffering and deserved fate.

Of course he is that is the whole point of revendreth, those who get there all don't believe they did any wrong and it takes the venthyr sometimes thousands of years to get them to repent and even then there are some, who will not reform.

The maw is a really exclusive club usually and small fry like the lich king don't make the cut.

[Donald Hellscream]

As of now? No, not because he is good boi who has never massacred countless people but because Devos and Uther kinda circumvented the entire judging process by just yeeting him into the maw.

Either the Arbiter would judge that there is a still a sliver of hope of redemption and yeet him to Revendreth where the inquisitors can have a field day torturing the sin out of him for eons until he is either purged of sin or deemed irredeemable and yeeted into the maw or she would have deemed that there is no hope of redemption and tossed him anyway.

We will never know due to the actions of Devos and Uther.

[eurojust]

What about his version on Azeroth AU where he's a good King? What will happen to that version?

[Engal]

After taking his vengeance upon Mal'Ganis, Prince Arthas wandered off into the frozen wastelands of Northrend.
Tormented by Frostmourne's maddening voice, Arthas lost the last vestiges of his sanity.
Now, driven by the sword's dark will, Arthas plans to return home to Lordaeron and claim his just reward...

[Itori]

I love Arthas, I love his story, and I loved that he got an epic ending, does he deserve eternal suffering? yep, I mean, how many people did he wipe out, families destroyed, cities destroyed, turned his home into a zombie filled wasteland, nearly wiped out the high elf race, then when he got the power of the lich king he came for us, and if it wasn't for the death knights turning on him, the horde and alliance coming together, and the dragons help, then we probably would have been turned into undead mindslaves. No amount of sorries is going to redeem him, so hope he's enjoying that darkness and torment, he earned it.