Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Edge-]

i see. for me i thought the term "I dont see color" was more that you treated everyone the same regardless of skin color but if that saying has been twisted then i understand.
if there needs to be change then i am all for change if done right.

That's the idea behind it, but even that has issues as it ignores aspects of who these people may be.

Example: Law enforcement (the topic of this thread!)

White folks are going to have little to no experience with being pulled over for DWB. DWB = Driving While Black, when cops think that Blackness itself is reasonable cause for suspicion. They're not gonna have that frame of reference which can inform a suspicion and mistrust of law enforcement due to their historical interactions with them.

Treating everyone equally is great, don't get me wrong! But assuming everyone was raised and viewed equally in a society, when we know that is objectively not true, isn't.

Liberals/leftists here are screaming at Kyle and talking some stupid shit about how "good samaritans" selflessly charged shooter. As I said, I saw only morons and bad decisions. So yeah, an echo chamber, matters not which side is chosen, as long as there is only one.

Yes, because by all accounts he was an aggressive shooter (hence the multiple charges) and those who sought to disarm/detain him were acting in defense of the other protesters from what they viewed to be a threat to other people.

That's one instance.

If you note, again, the opposite is not happening with the murder of Danielson. Liberals aren't rallying around to defend Reinoehl like conservatives are with Rittenhouse, they're largely in agreement that he straight up murdered a dude and should face legal consequences.

Ever heard of bad public impression? It is quite hard to quantify what is "disproportionate" and what is not, or how much destruction and looting has happened, but there is such thing as public image and support. The more those things are not reigned it, the more images and videos of destroyed buildings and burned down cars (I wonder how many have lost their only transport to work...), the less people will support the movement. Plus it feeds all the opposite groups and sways the minds of those sitting in the middle. Fix that shit.

How would one take over all news media and White House/Republican messaging to "fix that shit"? Are those engaging in violence under our control?

Plus remove fanatics from the BLM and the movement as whole, there are some people who should have never been given access to loudspeakers.

Again, we can't. That's not how this works, BLM is its own movement and not under the control of broader "liberals". That conservatives take individuals in BLM who are not leaders within the movement and portray them as such, apparently fooling people like you, is in large part a problem with people being happily ignorant.

Protest harder, then. Make a million go out on the streets like in HK, but in multiple cities, USA is big enough for that. Can't? Then decide what you are doing wrong. Make the minority cops join them, make soldiers join them (no one is going to dishonourably discharge or arrest couple hundred thousand people).

Uh...were you in a coma following the election of Trump with months of sustained, massive protests across the country that were overwhelming peaceful? Were you in a coma in June when we had weeks and weeks of widespread protests that, again, were largely peaceful even in the face of repeated assault and excessive use of force by police?

How do we make minority cops join the protests? You realize that just labels them as enemies within their departments, and would lead to all the kinds of internal retribution like we've seen against "good cops" trying to call out their "bad cop" colleagues before. We have plenty of veterans in the ranks of protesters, including a large group that was in Portland alongside the moms. Active duty, uniformed soldiers are duty-bound not to engage in partisan politics, which includes protesting, last I recall.

So you're basically asking for a bunch of impossible things because you apparently don't have any context for them.

Make human chains. If Baltics could do 2 million, then surely USA can do something much more insane in scale. Oh, and stop voting for Trump.

Because a human chain does...what, exactly?

And like, we're trying to get rid of Trump. But I don't see what that has to do with anything I wrote or your posts.

[Krakan]

He's underage with a unlicensed weapon then he proceeded to cross state lines that's several state and federal felonies. He is not law enforcement and he doesn't have any special permission to be there that makes him a vigilante which makes him the aggressor since he had no right to be there.

Those things you call "technicalities" are called intent and context in a court of law and strip him of any right to claim self defense. If he hadn't broken so many laws two people would be alive today.

That or they would of attacked someone else... I find it bizzare how the people who assaulted him a convicted pedophilia, an alleged racist and a armed convicted felon carrying am illegal weapon are all seen as saints.

The disconnect I've seen on this topic is almost at the point I assume it's for comedic effect.

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Question: Why is it that mayors in Democratic cities are expected to solve every problem as if they're the absolute leader of all within their borders and that there are no outside factors or influences?

Why is their no recognition for state and federal policies and failures that absolutely "trickle down" to the cities and exacerbate issues? Why is it that mayors, whose powers extend to the city limits, are limited in nature, and often superseded by state and federal authorities are expected to resolve every issue within their city?

Why can't those Republican mayors in small rural towns that are ravaged by the opioid epidemic get that under control?! Why aren't they fixing their cities economy when big companies leave? Why are they not shouldering the same kind of responsibility and blame as "big city mayors"?

Because they have all been offered aid and have made public showings of turning it down then grandstanding about how proud they are of the riots...

It's why this is going to be used to utterly devastate the democratic party in the election. These "mayors" are publicly supporting the riots and making a show of refusing to let the police and nation guard to take action.

The best part is they are doing all of this in writing on twitter.

[Edge-]

That or they would of attacked someone else...

Why haven't they? I mean, if they're all such violent people, why aren't we hearing of constant assaults against "good guys with guns"?

I find it bizzare how the people who assaulted him a convicted pedophilia, an alleged racist and a armed convicted felon carrying am illegal weapon are all seen as saints.

Who is seeing them as saints? This is like George Floyd all over again. Nobody sees him as a saint, he's a god-damned victim who turned into a symbol because he was murdered by the fuckin police for a petty misdemeanor.

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Because they have all been offered aid and have made public showings of turning it down then grandstanding about how proud they are of the riots...

Because, as Portland highlighted, it isn't actually helping and actually makes it worse. I don't see what that has to do with out of state agitators coming in though.

It's why this is going to be used to utterly devastate the democratic party in the election. These "mayors" are publicly supporting the riots and making a show of refusing to let the police and nation guard to take action.

They are not, in any way, supporting riots. That's a bald face lie. Nor is the Democratic party, including Joe Biden who repeated his condemnation of violence and criminal behavior taking advantage of the protests once again.

The best part is they are doing all of this in writing on twitter.

No, they're telling Trump that they don't need him to toss a 55 gallon drum of napalm on an incendiary situation. That's it. Trump wants this carnage to play out. This helps him. Blaming Democrat mayors as if they're in total control of everything in their city and aren't limited by their office as well as both State and Federal rules, laws, and related matters is beyond retarded as fuck, too.

By that virtue, literally everything happening in America, including these protests in these Democratic led cities, is all Trump's fault. 100%. It's happening under his watch, rioting and arson is Trump's America, and I guess this is what "Making America Great Again" looks like?

[Traveler Voltin]

That's the idea behind it, but even that has issues as it ignores aspects of who these people may be.

Example: Law enforcement (the topic of this thread!)

White folks are going to have little to no experience with being pulled over for DWB. DWB = Driving While Black, when cops think that Blackness itself is reasonable cause for suspicion. They're not gonna have that frame of reference which can inform a suspicion and mistrust of law enforcement due to their historical interactions with them.

Treating everyone equally is great, don't get me wrong! But assuming everyone was raised and viewed equally in a society, when we know that is objectively not true, isn't..

i dont assume that. i knew there was still racism but i just didnt know how bad it still was.

[Edge-]

i dont assume that. i knew there was still racism but i just didnt know how much it still was.

Wasn't meaning to say you specifically assume, was speaking more generally. But yes, America is still deeply systemically racist and as far as we'd like to think we have come since the days of the Civil Rights movement, we still have quite a long way to go to approach the promise of that movement and legislation. All while there's a not-insignificant part of the country desperately trying to return to the racism of old.

[Elegiac]

Liberals/leftists here are screaming at Kyle and talking some stupid shit about how "good samaritans" selflessly charged shooter.

I'ma call bullshit.

Prove it. Seeing Marx stans make shitty posts on Twitter is not evidence of widespread "liberals/leftists here".

[JohnBrown1917]

Sounds like self defense to me.

Only a plastic bag is dangerous enough to claim self defence..

[Easo]

My point, Edge, was very simple - try harder and try it peacefully. There has not been a million march around White House, for example, unless I am mistaken. Or is the mighty USA so incapable of overthrowing the supposed bad minority in charge? But fine, do whatever you want. Your house is burning down, while you keep getting more and more divided. Russia and China loves this shit, I'm sure.
P.S.
There was nothing like HK's protests against Trump, IIRC, nor did those continue for a half a year.

Who is seeing them as saints? This is like George Floyd all over again. Nobody sees him as a saint, he's a god-damned victim who turned into a symbol because he was murdered by the fuckin police for a petty misdemeanor.

You quoted the wrong guy, you know?
However, there are those who did make martyr out of Floyd and others. Their choice, but gives nice firewood to far righters. Brenda T. is a much better example.

[Krakan]

Why haven't they? I mean, if they're all such violent people, why aren't we hearing of constant assaults against "good guys with guns"?



Who is seeing them as saints? This is like George Floyd all over again. Nobody sees him as a saint, he's a god-damned victim who turned into a symbol because he was murdered by the fuckin police for a petty misdemeanor.

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Because, as Portland highlighted, it isn't actually helping and actually makes it worse. I don't see what that has to do with out of state agitators coming in though.



They are not, in any way, supporting riots. That's a bald face lie. Nor is the Democratic party, including Joe Biden who repeated his condemnation of violence and criminal behavior taking advantage of the protests once again.



No, they're telling Trump that they don't need him to toss a 55 gallon drum of napalm on an incendiary situation. That's it. Trump wants this carnage to play out. This helps him. Blaming Democrat mayors as if they're in total control of everything in their city and aren't limited by their office as well as both State and Federal rules, laws, and related matters is beyond retarded as fuck, too.

By that virtue, literally everything happening in America, including these protests in these Democratic led cities, is all Trump's fault. 100%. It's happening under his watch, rioting and arson is Trump's America, and I guess this is what "Making America Great Again" looks like?

There have been dozens of assaults over the past month... hell they film them themselves... you can watch them brick a guy walking down the street to mob beatings and killing that one store owner who tried to scare them off with a sword.

This event has really exposed those who only get their news from extremely small tunnels of information if anything. It's why it took days for people here to accept the video of those rioters who died attacking the kid.

[Noxx79]

There have been dozens of assaults over the past month... hell they film them themselves... you can watch them brick a guy walking down the street to mob beatings and killing that one store owner who tried to scare them off with a sword.

This event has really exposed those who only get their news from extremely small tunnels of information if anything. It's why it took days for people here to accept the video of those rioters who died attacking the kid.

I mean we’re not talking about the cops, but go off. Says the one who takes 4chan seriously.

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I'ma call bullshit.

Prove it. Seeing Marx stans make shitty posts on Twitter is not evidence of widespread "liberals/leftists here".

I called the people attempting to disarm the shooter after he killed someone good Samaritans and I stand by that. It’s also why the “good guy with a gun” creates nothing but more chaos.

[Elegiac]

There have been dozens of assaults over the past month... hell they film them themselves... you can watch them brick a guy walking down the street to mob beatings and killing that one store owner who tried to scare them off with a sword.

As opposed to the hundreds of actual deaths as a result of ring wing extremism over the past few decades?

To say nothing of the far worse assaults being conducted by law enforcement on peaceful protesters, lol.

This event has really exposed those who only get their news from extremely small tunnels of information if anything.

Which is why the only thing y'all have been able to post is videos from Twitter and continually dismiss sources to the contrary as "mainstream media". Right.

Projection.

[Edge-]

My point, Edge, was very simple - try harder and try it peacefully.

Again, been happening for decades and extensively over the past 4 years. Eventually the fringes start breaking away from the peaceful groups and start engaging in violence when they think that peace is ineffective.

Let's see how the Belarus protests are in 10 years when nothing has changed. Do you think the same people will still be in the streets every day/week/month 10 years down the line, protesting without any violence?

There has not been a million march around White House, for example, unless I am mistaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Women%27s_March

500K in DC, 3-5M people nationally. Those are huge numbers for the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...ashington,_D.C.

Sustained protest with tens of thousands of people in DC (the area around the White House ain't exactly big enough for a million people) for weeks.

Or is the mighty USA so incapable of overthrowing the supposed bad minority in charge?

Democracy, my dude. It's democracy. Trump won due to very legal electoral fuckery and our fucked up system. To overthrow him would be a coup, which would not be peaceful.

There was nothing like HK's protests against Trump, IIRC, nor did those continue for a half a year.

Because the threats are different, as are the geographical locations and populaces?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protes...t_Donald_Trump

I mean, there's been pretty constant advocacy and protests against Trump and his policies in various capacities nationally for nearly 4 years, does that count?

There have been dozens of assaults over the past month... hell they film them themselves... you can watch them brick a guy walking down the street to mob beatings and killing that one store owner who tried to scare them off with a sword.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hop-sword.html

This? Different protest from months and months ago in a different city in a different state. We're talking about Kenosha here, and while there are isolated incidents here and there I haven't seen anything that would support your suggestion that this was bound to happen because of the protesters.

This event has really exposed those who only get their news from extremely small tunnels of information if anything. It's why it took days for people here to accept the video of those rioters who died attacking the kid.

I imagine because that's not what happened, and the DA who is pressing multiple murder charges against Rittenhouse disagrees with you.

He's not a "kid", he's a 17 year old who traveled to another state with what appears to be an illegal weapon and then fled home, again across state lines, after murdering two people.

[agentorange]

And like, we're trying to get rid of Trump.

And maintain his policies....but having slightly more flowery rhetoric so a different elite can fuck over the poor.

[Themius]

My point, Edge, was very simple - try harder and try it peacefully.

Can you point to a historical example of where "peaceful" protest has actually ever accomplished much of anything? Just about ever major change has come from protests that weren't peaceful leading to quicker change... .

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

JOHN F KENNEDY

[Elegiac]

And maintain his policies....but having slightly more flowery rhetoric so a different elite can fuck over the poor.

All this really proves is that y'all are incapable of understanding the existential threat Trump represents to certain groups.

Either that or just really, really, really want neoliberalism to be just as bad as neoconservatism when it manifestly is not. It sucks, but y'all need to just accept that European leftism is not going to fly in a country deeply tainted by racial animus because M4A doesn't fix everything.

[Krakan]

As opposed to the hundreds of actual deaths as a result of ring wing extremism over the past few decades?

To say nothing of the far worse assaults being conducted by law enforcement on peaceful protesters, lol.



Which is why the only thing y'all have been able to post is videos from Twitter and continually dismiss sources to the contrary as "mainstream media". Right.

Projection.

I mean... what constitutes a right wing murder? Is it religion based? Race based?

What is that definition?

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Again, been happening for decades and extensively over the past 4 years. Eventually the fringes start breaking away from the peaceful groups and start engaging in violence when they think that peace is ineffective.

Let's see how the Belarus protests are in 10 years when nothing has changed. Do you think the same people will still be in the streets every day/week/month 10 years down the line, protesting without any violence?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Women%27s_March

500K in DC, 3-5M people nationally. Those are huge numbers for the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George...ashington,_D.C.

Sustained protest with tens of thousands of people in DC (the area around the White House ain't exactly big enough for a million people) for weeks.



Democracy, my dude. It's democracy. Trump won due to very legal electoral fuckery and our fucked up system. To overthrow him would be a coup, which would not be peaceful.



Because the threats are different, as are the geographical locations and populaces?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protes...t_Donald_Trump

I mean, there's been pretty constant advocacy and protests against Trump and his policies in various capacities nationally for nearly 4 years, does that count?



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hop-sword.html

This? Different protest from months and months ago in a different city in a different state. We're talking about Kenosha here, and while there are isolated incidents here and there I haven't seen anything that would support your suggestion that this was bound to happen because of the protesters.



I imagine because that's not what happened, and the DA who is pressing multiple murder charges against Rittenhouse disagrees with you.

He's not a "kid", he's a 17 year old who traveled to another state with what appears to be an illegal weapon and then fled home, again across state lines, after murdering two people.

I mean... his charged are based around him being a kid. If he was 18 the gun wouldn't of been illegal and that is the entire thrust behind his 1st degree murder charge...

[Elegiac]

I mean... what constitutes a right wing murder? Is it religion based? Race based?

What is that definition?

Y'all don't get to ask that sort of question while insisting "ANTIFA" is an imminent threat despite being unable to define its organization and scope.

Here you go, though. SPLC keeps a Chud Watchlist for right wing hate groups.

[Edge-]

I mean... his charged are based around him being a kid. If he was 18 the gun wouldn't of been illegal and that is the entire thrust behind his 1st degree murder charge...

You can be a minor and still be charged as an adult. Which is literally what's happening here -

He has been charged as an adult with two counts of murder and one count of attempted murder, along with weapons violations. Authorities plan to extradite him to Wisconsin to be tried.

[Elegiac]

I mean... his charged are based around him being a kid. If he was 18 the gun wouldn't of been illegal and that is the entire thrust behind his 1st degree murder charge...

Fairly sure the entire thrust behind the 1st degree murder charge was the fact he murdered someone in cold blood.

The firearm trafficking charge, like the other peripheral charges, is stock standard DA practice. Which is doubly amusing since the greatest ignorance of DA and police practice seems to come from the pro-police advocates.

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@Milchshake I'm having flashbacks to the talk about how Clancy "predicted" the biggest source of political violence in the 21st century US was going to be eco-terrorists, when it just continues to be racially motivated right wing extremism. They really bought into the "capitalism's victory in the Cold War means all social and economic problems are solved" crap being tossed around in the 90s. Lol.

[Auxora]

There is no defense for the police racism. So the racists supporting them resort to victim blaming, name calling, and fear mongering.

If they had a legitimate argument, they'd be able to offer it. But they don't. So their only move is lies. Claim all protesters are Antifa and Marxists. Claim all peaceful protesters are rioting. Claim all victims were bad people so the police murdering them is somehow justified. Photoshop if they need to in order to try to trick soft-minded people into agreeing with them. That's the level of disconnection from reality that they have reached, and it goes to show how entrenched and strong racism still is in 2020.
45 would not even be within 20 points of Biden in the polls in a country without racism. Maybe not even 30. He would be run out of town like snake oil salesmen in the 1800's.