How would you fix Baine and others?

[Syegfryed]

We assume Vol'jin does things differently than Garrosh, but who knows how.

he passed his time saying to everyone they be family

pretty sure him and sylvanas both enjoyed by the Garrosh worldbuilding and his innovations, you barely had to change anything since they had all the foundations of a stable nation, Attacking teldrassil was just possible by example, because Garrosh eliminted number 1 problem theramore, Vol'jin used the inner city to help the citizens from the legion attacks, they both had to actived th kor'kron again and so on

[Rexosaurus]

This thread is all you need to know about why Baine sucks. The only posters who are defending him are alliance, because they know Baine carries their water and is treasonous thorn in the Horde. Nobody in the Horde player base likes or roots for him, most of us wanted him dead multiple expansions ago. Let him defect to the alliance, or let us kill him for betraying the Horde over and over again. I miss his dad, now that was a leader.

Oh really?

I'm primarily a Horde player, and while Baine is more passive then I'd like, I was still ultimately pulling for him throughout BfA. I didn't care one bit about killing the Forsaken guards and saving Derek. I just wish it happened sooner.

You should be more careful about sweeping generalizations that are backed by anecdotal evidence.

[october breeze]

Baine deserves one fate, and one fate alone.



As for Voss, I don't care much for her. Thrall is fine, he just needs to man up. His depiction since Safe Haven has been fine, it seems he's over his elemental dysfunction. Develop Gey'arah and re-introduce Grom to the main timeline. I still doubt he died to Yrel to this day.

Baine is so bland and tasteless. I am sure you will need whole lot of salt and sauce to make it taste anything! :/

[Syegfryed]

Baine is so bland and tasteless. I am sure you will need whole lot of salt and sauce to make it taste anything! :/

he probably taste worse than tofu or soja

[BrintoSFJ]

Punishing your people for self defense and valuing the lives of humans over your own people isn't peaceful, its suicide.

Self defense? Since when did horde acted self defend? They always attacked and caused unprovoked war and committed genocide. If you want some fixing, then wiping out the entire horde will fix a lot of problem. It is high time the horde pays for all the atrocities they have caused.

[Pawpurr]

I like Baine because I'd rather see the factions dissolved and either left dissolved or reformed in story relevant ways (possibly on a per expansion basis, so the old world can stay a vs h)

EG: What if the nature races broke off and formed their own faction to actually protect azeroth from corruption instead of constantly compromising and harnassing the big bad's power against them? What if the fanatical light plotline played out into drawing some of the light-based races into their own?

There's a lot that could be done with the game that would be way more interesting, A vs H is stale and not even the heart of the game people claim (remember, wc3 had 4 factions and really subfactions within them if you want to be technical)

[Super Dickmann]

he passed his time saying to everyone they be family

pretty sure him and sylvanas both enjoyed by the Garrosh worldbuilding and his innovations, you barely had to change anything since they had all the foundations of a stable nation, Attacking teldrassil was just possible by example, because Garrosh eliminted number 1 problem theramore, Vol'jin used the inner city to help the citizens from the legion attacks, they both had to actived th kor'kron again and so on

I like to think that he collected unemployment checks and smoked a bong whereas Sylvanas purchased mustache wax when they weren't making their extremely sparse appearances.

But seriously, you're entirely right. We see how Vol'jin and Sylvanas deal with one aspect of something Garrosh built up - the Underhold, about three expansions later, but we never have the insight to how the races interact with one another, how they view their Warchief individually and so forth. We know very clearly who was happy and who wasn't under Thrall, the place of the different races and how that and other events made Garrosh prominent and how he changed things when he was Warchief. I suspect this is by design. There is never a point in BFA where the reaction of only one race is ever in focus and has a motivation radically different from others, except for the pre-expansion book that is non-canon. Sylvanas's supporters are the Burger King Kids' Club and so are her enemies. With Thrall and Garrosh, you knew where people stood and where their benefits and downsides were. In Cataclysm you could tell where the leaders stood vis a vis Garrosh, but also the on the ground policy and experience of the races. Hell, Mists, itself poor conceptually, took its time to show you every race's different reason to do what it is they do. Right after that point, and especially now, the Horde is treated as this bloc and at the end none of them mind that their oldest institutions are ditched.

@Pawpurr

I'd agree with you if I thought there was any chance of that happening, but in reality faction dissolution will just lead us into endless super friends expansions where we follow Anduin and his Amazing Friends to fight space ghosts while everyone else collects dust at home. See Legion and this one for examples.

[Powerogue]

Voss - she's perfectly placed for exposing Calia to the cruel side of the forsaken. I want Calia's image of the forsaken as poor unfortunate souls just in need of a soft guiding hand shattered as she comes back to Netherlight Temple to find every inch of it festively decorated with the intestines of the Scarlet Crusaders who were taking refuge there.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Thrall or Baine. They both came out of BFA better than when they came in.

As far as "improving the Horde's gutted roster" I initially had a thought of Thrall re-earning Doomhammer, but I think it's a necessary part of his arc to be depowered and humbled rather than in the spotlight.

Maybe just more focus on the remaining Horde leaders who don't often get spotlight and many of which don't even have unique models. Gazlowe, Ji Firepaw, Rokhan, Geya'rah, Kiro and Mayla Highmountain. What new stories might we get by exploring their personalities? Lots of untapped ground there.

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Baine is so bland and tasteless. I am sure you will need whole lot of salt and sauce to make it taste anything! :/

Don't worry, these forums have plenty.

[Darknessvamp]

I don't think you can fix Baine at this point. For starters Baine would actually have to give a damn about his people, he cares more for the Alliance races than any of his own ilk at this point. He'd need to be less of an Alliance plant, I can see a respect for and sort of mutual understanding with Anduin due their similarity in the familial sense and how they were thrust into positions of power but the constant lap dogging to other members of the Alliance whom he has barely any positive relationship with, betrayal and concession of the Horde and fault and threatening of the lives of Horde soldiers and their civilians just to curry favor with a faction that would no sooner turn him to roast beef should the tides turn is ridiculous.

Voss needs to cut it with the descent into irrelevancy, establish herself as someone who can help drive the Forsaken with purpose and even champion the idea of a leading council either elected from the whole or based on the factions within the Forsaken. She should also stop with the concession to Calia and be more opposed to her having any degree of power in the Horde or the Forsaken for that matter, especially due to Voss' backstory.

Thrall is a bit of mess, notice how they basically retired him off screen between Legion and BfA but then brought him back to do... nothing. He really should just be allowed to disappear with Aggra and be irrelevant to the ongoing story. He doesn't have much interest in regaining his connection to the elements, doesn't want much involvement in the Horde anymore and it's clear he's going nowhere storywise.

[scrappybristol]

I've always, always, ALWAYS thought that when Anduin gave Baine Fearbreaker, he should have started to become a paladin.

That would have put him in direct conflict with Sylvanas' nature and let him be the do-gooder he is by his very nature of wielding the light.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Add in another Zandalari character who isn't going to stay in Zandalar have the time like Talanji is?

Also yeah, the current writing team is meh

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Rokhan oversaw ground operations in Nazmir, he didn't really appear anywhere else of note. As for Rastakhan's funeral, Baine did nothing of the sort - he simply empathized with the loss of Talanji's father as he had experience in that regard, and upbraided Nathanos for trying to use Talanji's grief as a weapon. If anything Nathanos dishonored Rastakhan's memory by trying to use his death as a bargaining chip, not that Nathanos had any true empathy or sympathy to speak of for Talanji.

Yeah, one of many reason why I think Nathanos deserved to die.

Poor Rastakhan, I almost want to see him back again as a zombie or something

[Cyram]

The way I'd fixe Baine's pro-Alliance stance would be to have his people start doubting his abilities to carry them to prosperity. The main fault I find in him is that he's constantly putting the fate of the Alliance over the fate of his people (and the Horde).
I'd do that by bringing our good girl Magatha back. Have an event where a shit ton of Tauren die while Baine's having tea or rubbing butts with Anduin in Stormwind... and then have Magatha create some unrest, so that Baine's people ask him to stick around some more, forcing him out of Anduin's inner circle.
If I had it my way, I'd just have Magatha take over, that way Baine can go be put out to pasture in Stormwind, with Anduin. Hell, it doesn't even have to be Magatha... create another Tauren character to do that - get Dezco or Gamon to do it, for all I care.
... but I'd get Magatha in the mix because I'd like to see a darker side of the Tauren. That'd even be a great time to bring the Bloodtotem to the mix, and allow HMTauren to become warlocks.
Thrall's fine. Voss is fine, but she's more of a free agent, so I'd bring in other Forsaken NPCs that we know and love instead of her. It'd be like having Garona become the new representative of the orcs when there's a big list of lore characters that have more ties to Orgrimmar than her.

[Soon-TM]

Self defense? Since when did horde acted self defend? They always attacked and caused unprovoked war and committed genocide. If you want some fixing, then wiping out the entire horde will fix a lot of problem. It is high time the horde pays for all the atrocities they have caused.

Jaina's attack on Camp Meme and the Great Gate itself were part of the war declared by Varian during the battle for the Undercity. Tauren soldiers were strictly defending their lands. L2lore.

[tromage2]

I'd do that by bringing our good girl Magatha back.

Not another female leader please we alrdy got tons on the Horde.
We also have ballless guys in Thrall and Baine so you can even count them in the female section.

[Soon-TM]

Not another female leader please we alrdy got tons on the Horde.
We also have ballless guys in Thrall and Baine so you can even count them in the female section.

Meh, I'd take Maggie over Anduin's doormat any day of the week. Alternatively, the story should give Baine a huge slap in the face, so that he realises that while peace may be a noble aspiration, the millenia-old adage of si vis pacem, para bellum is still applicable.

For all of the DISASTER that was GoT S8, the one thing they got right was to show clearly that Samsa would have never become queen had she followed her father's MO. Yes, Ned was an admirable dude, but his blind faith in duty and MUH HONORZ (sounds familiar?) got him an axe in uncomfortable places.

[october breeze]

Voss - she's perfectly placed for exposing Calia to the cruel side of the forsaken. I want Calia's image of the forsaken as poor unfortunate souls just in need of a soft guiding hand shattered as she comes back to Netherlight Temple to find every inch of it festively decorated with the intestines of the Scarlet Crusaders who were taking refuge there.

There's nothing particularly wrong with Thrall or Baine. They both came out of BFA better than when they came in.

As far as "improving the Horde's gutted roster" I initially had a thought of Thrall re-earning Doomhammer, but I think it's a necessary part of his arc to be depowered and humbled rather than in the spotlight.

Maybe just more focus on the remaining Horde leaders who don't often get spotlight and many of which don't even have unique models. Gazlowe, Ji Firepaw, Rokhan, Geya'rah, Kiro and Mayla Highmountain. What new stories might we get by exploring their personalities? Lots of untapped ground there.

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Don't worry, these forums have plenty.

Can't argue with that.
Most of it justified though!

[Powerogue]

The way I'd fixe Baine's pro-Alliance stance would be to have his people start doubting his abilities to carry them to prosperity. The main fault I find in him is that he's constantly putting the fate of the Alliance over the fate of his people (and the Horde).
I'd do that by bringing our good girl Magatha back. Have an event where a shit ton of Tauren die while Baine's having tea or rubbing butts with Anduin in Stormwind... and then have Magatha create some unrest, so that Baine's people ask him to stick around some more, forcing him out of Anduin's inner circle.

Do you realize this already happened, with the only key difference is that it was Baine getting the assistance of the Alliance that was the only thing that managed to save Thunder Bluff from Magatha taking over?

[Combatbutler]

Do you realize this already happened, with the only key difference is that it was Baine getting the assistance of the Alliance that was the only thing that managed to save Thunder Bluff from Magatha taking over?

Because he made the choice to go to the alliance, or more specific Jaina, because he couldn't be arsed to travel to Silvermoon and ask for help.

[Syegfryed]

Because he made the choice to go to the alliance, or more specific Jaina, because he couldn't be arsed to travel to Silvermoon and ask for help.

thinking about it, i fully believe didn't ask help from any horde race back there, didn't ask Garrosh, vol'jin, even the blood elves, he went for Jaina

[Combatbutler]

thinking about it, i fully believe didn't ask help from any horde race back there, didn't ask Garrosh, vol'jin, even the blood elves, he went for Jaina

Garrosh he didn't ask, because Baine believed he was complicit in the whole thing, he assumed the trolls would be under the thumb of the orcs , the forsaken were under Kor'kron supervision and he argued Silvermoon was too far away.