Shadowlands has major problems up ahead

[NineSpine]

I could argue the words definition but I don't see that as overly productive since we will each draw from different dictionaries.

There is no definition that matches how you are using the word. You just pulled it out of your ass when you said the dictionary defined it your way, and now you are backing off because you were proven wrong. When people say "casual" they aren't referring to mythic raiders. You just want to redefine the word so that you can define yourself into being correct rather than having to make coherent arguments.

Very well beyond what I can fleece from them what value do casuals have with this conversation? If they will just do whatever randomly why would anyone care to design a system around them? In all likely hood they will simply wholesale copy whatever the "good" players do and then enforce strange rigid requirements on their fellows.

Whatever system is made they have a more parasitic existence simply copying whatever the better players are doing.

They pay the same monthly fee you do, and no amount of whiny narcissism is going to change the fact that there are many times more casual players than mythic raiders. The game should be designed for the average person, not for you and your cute little niche activity. The game shouldn't be designed for any fringe activity, whether that activity is mythic raids or pet battles, two things which are equally important to the core of the game. You aren't special. You aren't more important than anything. The health of the game does not rest on you. Your self-importance does not equate to actual importance.

[goldlock]

There is no definition that matches how you are using the word. You just pulled it out of your ass when you said the dictionary defined it your way, and now you are backing off because you were proven wrong. When people say "casual" they aren't referring to mythic raiders. You just want to redefine the word so that you can define yourself into being correct rather than having to make coherent arguments.



They pay the same monthly fee you do, and no amount of whiny narcissism is going to change the fact that there are many times more casual players than mythic raiders. The game should be designed for the average person, not for you and your cute little niche activity. The game shouldn't be designed for any fringe activity, whether that activity is mythic raids or pet battles, two things which are equally important to the core of the game. You aren't special. You aren't more important than anything. The health of the game does not rest on you. Your self-importance does not equate to actual importance.

No oxford the true dictionary supports it I just realized it isn't a productive conversation.

Paying the same amount of money doesn't matter, even paying more wouldn't. If people are largely unaffected by a system as you so claim it makes no sense to develop a system based around them. It is a nonsensical argument.. this system isn't designed for anyone that I can tell. I don't really see who benefits by having a talent row being more difficult to respec.

Sadly the games health does rest unfairly on mythic players. If mythic players deign that a certain class isn't competitive in mythic raiding or mythic+ you can be sure casuals for whatever weird reason will shun that class or spec in low level content where so long as you cast whatever the game auto assigned on your two key you will clear it. I don't understand why this is the case but it always has been.

[NineSpine]

No oxford the true dictionary supports it I just realized it isn't a productive conversation.

Oh, the dictionary with a paywall happens to be the only one that supports you. What a fucking joke. Post the definition and clown me. Cmon, show me how wrong I am. Make a fool out of me.

Paying the same amount of money doesn't matter, even paying more wouldn't. If people are largely unaffected by a system as you so claim it makes no sense to develop a system based around them. It is a nonsensical argument.. this system isn't designed for anyone that I can tell. I don't really see who benefits by having a talent row being more difficult to respec.

Because it isn't a talent row. It's two abilities, soulbinds, exclusive legendaries, and. few other benefits. If you can't even deal with that reality, and have to start my mischaracterizing the system, I don't know what to tell you.

Sadly the games health does rest unfairly on mythic players. If mythic players deign that a certain class isn't competitive in mythic raiding or mythic+ you can be sure casuals for whatever weird reason will shun that class or spec in low level content where so long as you cast whatever the game auto assigned on your two key you will clear it. I don't understand why this is the case but it always has been.

Population demographics regarding class are incredibly static. They don't shift wildly with the meta. So, you are factually wrong. We've never seen mass rerolls to meta classes. It's a fantasy. You aren't important.

[goldlock]

Oh, the dictionary with a paywall happens to be the only one that supports you. What a fucking joke. Post the definition and clown me. Cmon, show me how wrong I am. Make a fool out of me.



Because it isn't a talent row. It's two abilities, soulbinds, exclusive legendaries, and. few other benefits. If you can't even deal with that reality, and have to start my mischaracterizing the system, I don't know what to tell you.



Population demographics regarding class are incredibly static. They don't shift wildly with the meta. So, you are factually wrong. We've never seen mass rerolls to meta classes. It's a fantasy. You aren't important.

I mean no it isn't. While yes there are legendaries and I haven't played every class on beta they take a back seat to your covenant choice in most cases with the exception of brewmaster (I heard having stagger have a change to heal you for its damage rather then hurt you is big).

Population doesn't shift you are right but how easily those groups find well groups does constantly. This isn't some new system we are seeing it is just the old system with more hidden numbers and harder respecing.

You still side stepped my question. If "casuals" don't care and will just do whatever regardless why would there ever be a concentrated effort on them?

[NineSpine]

I mean no it isn't. While yes there are legendaries and I haven't played every class on beta they take a back seat to your covenant choice in most cases with the exception of brewmaster (I heard having stagger have a change to heal you for its damage rather then hurt you is big).

The system is more complex than "Pick one of four abilities". It just is, and the fact that you are dishonest about this speaks volumes about the value of your opinion on it.

Population doesn't shift you are right but how easily those groups find well groups does constantly. This isn't some new system we are seeing it is just the old system with more hidden numbers and harder respecing.

This is a new system, whether that is convenient for your argument or not. The fact that aspects of it are relatively familiar is irrelevant. No talent row choice comes with two abilities, three slottable talent trees, and exclusive legendaries, plus more.

You still side stepped my question. If "casuals" don't care and will just do whatever regardless why would there ever be a concentrated effort on them?

You are the one saying they "don't care", not me. I don't need to address strawmen.

[kaminaris]

Yeah ok, nope.

Starting 8.2 Azerite was literally not a thing anymore. We finished Eternal Palace 345 World and Nyalotha 442 World on 2 days per week timer and nobody was required to grind AP.

I got all the AP I needed from table, WQs (kill one dude for big AP) and some one-time or other activities. I probably did less than 10 Islands total in 8.2 and I'm not even sure I even did one island in 8.3.

You grossly overestimate what is required to clear Mythic raids. If it's legit world first, then you need every advantage you can get, but if you are getting to later bosses after like a month and a bit - you already have a lot of catchup gear and such making things already easier. By that time you pretty much will have all the AP you need semi-passively anyway.

I would say that 8.1 was already over for any "grinding" AP. I remember I was doing like 3 islands per week back then and already had defensive traits unlocked.
AP/Azerite was much much much more relaxed than in legion. Since I stopped doing WQs very early in expansion.

But those people prolly never raided mythic and their only "experience" is from watching method/limit streams.

[Kumorii]

If you wanted to earn the most AP possible then yes, you were. Of course if you don't care how powerful your character is then you aren't "forced" to do anything. But that wasn't my point.

People in mythic raiding absolutely had to grind islands to meet the minimum AP requirements their guilds had. This was really a thing.

I didn't. Be careful when making sweeping statements. Some guilds did, sure. Some guilds did not.

[NineSpine]

I didn't. Be careful when making sweeping statements. Some guilds did, sure. Some guilds did not.

The number of people here who think "But a streamer told me to do it, so I did it, therefore everyone did it" is amazing.

[goldlock]

The system is more complex than "Pick one of four abilities". It just is, and the fact that you are dishonest about this speaks volumes about the value of your opinion on it.



This is a new system, whether that is convenient for your argument or not. The fact that aspects of it are relatively familiar is irrelevant. No talent row choice comes with two abilities, three slottable talent trees, and exclusive legendaries, plus more.



You are the one saying they "don't care", not me. I don't need to address strawmen.

It really isn't anymore or any less complex. You add up the best choices of each covenant and work them out to a raw dps number for single target, aoe, burst or sustain.

You pick what end game content you want to do then move on.

[NineSpine]

It really isn't anymore or any less complex. You add up the best choices of each covenant and work them out to a raw dps number for single target, aoe, burst or sustain.

You pick what end game content you want to do then move on.

Best choices when? You don't have access to everything immediately. It takes time. Best choices are contingent on too many things. The fact that this system is not static is really going over your head. Soulbinds aren't handed to you. They are time gated. Conduits are drops. Legendaries can change the value of all these things and are gated as well, many behind drops. Declaring the optimal setup when only a fraction of people will have the right things unlocked, dropped, and crafted for it is pretty much a moot point. Just a simple example: What if I have very good finesse conduits but not the best potency conduits yet? Now which soulbind is best for something for me might change.

[goldlock]

Best choices when? You don't have access to everything immediately. It takes time. Best choices are contingent on too many things. The fact that this system is not static is really going over your head. Soulbinds aren't handed to you. They are time gated. Conduits are drops. Legendaries can change the value of all these things and are gated as well, many behind drops. Declaring the optimal setup when only a fraction of people will have the right things unlocked, dropped, and crafted for it is pretty much a moot point. Just a simple example: What if I have very good finesse conduits but not the best potency conduits yet? Now which soulbind is best for something for me might change.

It doesn't take that long to do. Sure the AP grind will take most players a few weeks but its pretty easy to get everything fairly quickly. You want depth. I can get that but that isn't what this is.

[Mafic]

Nobody this invested in the details of the mechanics is casual. You don't understand what casual means.

- - - Updated - - -



Your fallacy here is assuming a 20% power differential when played by extremely proficient players is going to mean a 20% power differential when played by average players. It won't.

Actually I am not referencing mechanics because I am simply talking about game play 101. Night Fae sepsis forces a vanish which resets mobs. Venthyr has to be reapplied every 2 minutes compared to 1 hour with poisons. And Kyrian echoing reprimand is clunky for a casual like me to fully maximize as more hardcore players will have to use an addon.

So, yeah bone spike it is right now.

But the bigger issue for me as a casual player is all these layers of rental systems requiring upkeep. What happened to gear just being gear?

[Aphrel]

The "major" problems seem to affect mostly the top 0.1% of raiders and the pseudo-elitist idiots that think they are like the 0.1% of raiders.

Thus.. not really Major problems at all, as the game would likely be far better off without them.

19271 kills on heroic wrathion. 2155kills on mythic Nzoth. Thats 11,1% of the ppl that have killed heroic wrathion wich have also killed mythic N'zoth if you go by statistics on wowprogress.

This idea that only 0,1% are doing cutting edge is a delusion, alot more raiders are doing it.

[Gaidax]

19271 kills on heroic wrathion. 2155kills on mythic Nzoth. Thats 11,1% of the ppl that have killed heroic wrathion wich have also killed mythic N'zoth if you go by statistics on wowprogress.

This idea that only 0,1% are doing cutting edge is a delusion, alot more raiders are doing it.

Ur right - it's ~2% OooOOOOOoOOOoOOooooo stop the presses.

[ReVnX]

19271 kills on heroic wrathion. 2155kills on mythic Nzoth. Thats 11,1% of the ppl that have killed heroic wrathion wich have also killed mythic N'zoth if you go by statistics on wowprogress.

This idea that only 0,1% are doing cutting edge is a delusion, alot more raiders are doing it.

Because everyone does at least HC

[munkeyinorbit]

I disagree because if they listened to beta testers of BFA it would have turned out a better expansion. Ignoring BFA beta testes proved to be a massive mistake and we all don't want a repeat of BFA.

But they did listen to people in the beta. Development takes time and they can't just ditch or change a system willy nilly. The azerite system saw improvements throughout each patch. That was from player feedback. You make the mistake of developers not doing what you want with not listening.

[slime]

Nice analysis. Nobody cares about your opinion.

Just as no one cares about your life.

[Vasoka]

Nice analysis. Nobody cares about your opinion.

This. 10char

[Soon-TM]

@Mafic

Hats off to you for not arguing with trolls and stupid people who post here. Rarely do I see someone like you. Good job btw.

I'm all for "Pull the ripcord" as well, but what can you do at this point? Blizzard is aware this is a problem, so many people in the community are talking about it. I don't think sharing here on the forums is going to change much tbh...

At this point, people who are saying that covenant are right? Are probably extremely casual who will play for a month or two and be done with the game. Don't know much about what's coming and give their opinions anyway.

WoW has had problems like this for quite a while now. Blizzard have a reason to keep them, and I think that reason is often hidden because it's motivated by greed, money and catering to the casuals. Convenants, as they are, are bound to cause a lot of problems and frustration. I really hope deep down they will unlock them, or as bellular suggested, making the Class abilities swapable and the signature stick more.

Their 200 IQ solution will be to add a second, actually useful signature skill to each covenant in 9.2, gated (of course!) behind a massive, soul crushing grind. #PullTheRipcord sadly isn't happening anytime soon with Ion in charge - not unless there a massive income hiatus.

[Mafic]

19271 kills on heroic wrathion. 2155kills on mythic Nzoth. Thats 11,1% of the ppl that have killed heroic wrathion wich have also killed mythic N'zoth if you go by statistics on wowprogress.

This idea that only 0,1% are doing cutting edge is a delusion, alot more raiders are doing it.

That is a fair point.

I think people become too caught up on labels and in the end what matters if the game works and classes are fun. Right now on the PTR classes feels weaker without corruptions/downscaled essences and a lot aspects of prepatch are buggy.

Like for example fight path gold costs need to be adjusted or else the entire point if the expansion revamp of leveling/squish becomes pointless.