Will Blizzard nerf your "meaningful choice"?

[Lei]

you will switch covenant after nerf and regrind Renown, like you grind every expansion.

Can you tell me an example for this (time investment, effortwise, so in the very same ballpark) in vanilla, bc, wotlk, cata, mop, and wod? Please, I'm dying to know.

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i wouldnt be surprised if they nerf them all so the impact they have on dps is negligible. which means everyone is gonna be venthyr because of the teleport thingy

Honestly, I just hope they won't do a merry go round thingie, where at some point of the expansion one precise covenant is best for you but never the earlier. So one patch 1 new covenant, so you have to max out every single one of them. Because otherwise it would be "wasted content" obv.
On a second thought, if you care about covenant looks the slightest (RP, flavor, curiosity, alts, collecting, completing), you WILL HAVE at least 4 chars maxed out on renown and everything, so you will play everything no matter your meaningful choice on your main.

[Dracullus]

Can you tell me an example for this (time investment, effortwise, so in the very same ballpark) in vanilla, bc, wotlk, cata, mop, and wod? Please, I'm dying to know.

In my post I wasn't talking about Legion/BfA levels of grind, because SL is nowhere near them in this field (and if you're cutting edge player you sorta kinda should know this already). Without AP or any kind of titanforging you won't do any scrap of world quest you see, endless chain Islands or Mythic+ and do stupid shit like farming outdated content where you already got item or have better, but you hope for titanforged version.

In SL all you have to do (in open world) are 2 weekly quests. Conduits are just item drops. Rest (gear, legendary) is tied to your spec, not covenant. Also I'm not sure, but I heard Renown, despite being more like modern Conquest than AP, will have artifact knowledge catch up system as well (don't quote me on that).

So where I wrote "you grind like every expansion" I was rather thinking of Wrath-MoP time investment (not WoD, because it was true 'raid or die' expac), not Legion/BfA.

[kaminaris]

In my post I wasn't talking about Legion/BfA levels of grind, because SL is nowhere near them in this field (and if you're cutting edge player you sorta kinda should know this already). Without AP or any kind of titanforging you won't do any scrap of world quest you see, endless chain Islands or Mythic+ and do stupid shit like farming outdated content where you already got item or have better, but you hope for titanforged version.

In SL all you have to do (in open world) are 2 weekly quests. Conduits are just item drops. Rest (gear, legendary) is tied to your spec, not covenant. Also I'm not sure, but I heard Renown, despite being more like modern Conquest than AP, will have artifact knowledge catch up system as well (don't quote me on that).

So where I wrote "you grind like every expansion" I was rather thinking of Wrath-MoP time investment (not WoD, because it was true 'raid or die' expac), not Legion/BfA.

Just weekly chest 5x M+ will be much more than current "grind". Nobody sane was farming islands, just doing 3x per week and that's it. Nobody farmed titanforging because it was unrealistic to expect them to drop (TF was severely nerfed). Even "cutting edge" players, unless you mean top 20 guilds but nobody should care about these guilds do.

[Dracullus]

Just weekly chest 5x M+ will be much more than current "grind". Nobody sane was farming islands, just doing 3x per week and that's it. Nobody farmed titanforging because it was unrealistic to expect them to drop (TF was severely nerfed). Even "cutting edge" players, unless you mean top 20 guilds but nobody should care about these guilds do.

In my post I am referring to these guilds, not what I or (I think) majority was doing. Min-maxing people were farming world quests, islands, Maw of Souls, etc. and that's a fact. Of course AP is no longer relevant during 8.3.

[Kaver]

Just weekly chest 5x M+ will be much more than current "grind". Nobody sane was farming islands, just doing 3x per week and that's it. Nobody farmed titanforging because it was unrealistic to expect them to drop (TF was severely nerfed). Even "cutting edge" players, unless you mean top 20 guilds but nobody should care about these guilds do.

I guess it depends what the individual person define as a grind. For example, I don't see M+ as a grind because I enjoy doing them. I would probably do 10x M+ no matter what just for the fun of it. In shadowlands it looks like I can spend more time doing content that I actually enjoy compared to BFA.

[pinkz]

But that is still going to suck for a lot of players. Blizzard will get a lot of complaining from casuals that they are doing less damage because of their covenant choice. I actually see these systems hurt casual players more than CE player because the latter will simply just pick the best choice, end of story, whereas the many casuals will like to have both the best performing abilities but also the coolest transmog.

too many assume changes based of casuals. "casuals" meme has become "the kid" meme when memes weren't really used. imo, videos on youtube and streamers drive alot of the changes more than you think. top WOW section streamer, like to use the term casuals, slam casuals, says blizzard is catering to casuals, who dont really play the game.

yet gets carried in arenas, mythic raids, and forgets what he previously says, admitting he is really not a WOW hardcore guy, mostly collects mounts and tmogs. but when pissed he gets on the anti casual bandwagon, along with a fleet of his followers, ironicly the majority dont even play WOW, yet post/poll/vote etc. etc on reddit, tweet, as if they did.

when it comes to PVP
this same streamer does alot of react on youtube videos. when you look at the author of the videos, they are not casuals, they are top PVPrs or min-maxers.
ironicly corruption nerfs came not due to 3000 arena casuals, but due to 3000+ rated players complaining and videoing what was going on.

[Sevarin]

And we dealt with it just fine, the world did not end and Legion is considered a good expansion after all the dust has settled.

opinions are subjective. i hated legion.

[Kaver]

too many assume changes based of casuals. "casuals" meme has become "the kid" meme when memes weren't really used. imo, videos on youtube and streamers drive alot of the changes more than you think. top WOW section streamer, like to use the term casuals, slam casuals, says blizzard is catering to casuals, who dont really play the game.

yet gets carried in arenas, mythic raids, and forgets what he previously says, admitting he is really not a WOW hardcore guy, mostly collects mounts and tmogs. but when pissed he gets on the anti casual bandwagon, along with a fleet of his followers, ironicly the majority dont even play WOW, yet post/poll/vote etc. etc on reddit, tweet, as if they did.

when it comes to PVP
this same streamer does alot of react on youtube videos. when you look at the author of the videos, they are not casuals, they are top PVPrs or min-maxers.
ironicly corruption nerfs came not due to 3000 arena casuals, but due to 3000+ rated players complaining and videoing what was going on.

I really don't get what your point is. Seems like you're just pissed at Asmongold for some reason.

[pinkz]

I really don't get what your point is. Seems like you're just pissed at Asmongold for some reason.

point was...you as many are throwing the casual term around too loosely,

as for asmongold, i watch him daily, not to get pissed or see when he flubs, just saying he throws the term casual like a hand grenade also.

[goldlock]

“Adversity has the same effect on a man that severe training has on the pugilist: it reduces him to his fighting weight.”– Josh Billings

The wow community will do as it always has when faced with brutal minmaxing... The best/most dedicated players will run four of the class they wish to play and gear each to excel in whatever situation they find themselves in. The good but casual audience will pick the most powerful combination for the content they primarily enjoy and then swap over or level a alt if they enjoy other types of content once their main form is done.

The pug community will develop mods and with half understood information will deny and drive out people who they deem as not min maxed. You can't break the cycle it has been perfected by the community at large. There will never be acceptance of people with "unique" specs as there never has been in any but the easiest of content. If you spec is nerfed you will simply have to regrind another like rogues in legion.

There is nothing new under the sun we have been down this path before and just like before it will be endured.

[ToxicFlame]

By that logic not always playing the fotm class is an asshole thing to do

yes, and i do feel bad for not rerolling to the fotm, i just loathe leveling that much.

There is no content that can't be done with any covenant choice, aside from the very cutting edge of mythic progression. I am not doing that content - so I'm holding back exactly no one.

I'm sure you're willing to prove your point by linking your 99%+ parses on all your classes, or you'd be an asshole for holding back other people to right?

Never said it can't be done or that you need 99%+ parses, i am talking about you yourself feeling bad for the actions you make. If you make every effort and then you are just not able to play at the highest level that's a different topic and not something you should feel bad about. That is different from soemthing like, i can't be arsed to check what talents/covenants/stat/... is best so i'll go with whatever which is what absolutely makes me feel like an asshole and i think it should make everyone feel bad if they play with others

[Kaver]

point was...you as many are throwing the casual term around too loosely,

as for asmongold, i watch him daily, not to get pissed or see when he flubs, just saying he throws the term casual like a hand grenade also.

That's because we often use the word casual to describe the 90 % of WoW players. And in relation to the subject of this thread, a lot of those players will hate doing 10-20 % less damage than other players of the same class because of covenants. It's not about elite players. Everyone who cares just a little bit about performance will be hurt by this.

[Lei]

In my post I wasn't talking about Legion/BfA levels of grind, because SL is nowhere near them in this field (and if you're cutting edge player you sorta kinda should know this already). Without AP or any kind of titanforging you won't do any scrap of world quest you see, endless chain Islands or Mythic+ and do stupid shit like farming outdated content where you already got item or have better, but you hope for titanforged version.

In SL all you have to do (in open world) are 2 weekly quests. Conduits are just item drops. Rest (gear, legendary) is tied to your spec, not covenant. Also I'm not sure, but I heard Renown, despite being more like modern Conquest than AP, will have artifact knowledge catch up system as well (don't quote me on that).

So where I wrote "you grind like every expansion" I was rather thinking of Wrath-MoP time investment (not WoD, because it was true 'raid or die' expac), not Legion/BfA.

Ah, okay.
I'm still waiting for "the catch" in this system. I really feel like there will be. And I see people talk about it with confidence while it changes on a weekly basis.

[pinkz]

That's because we often use the word casual to describe the 90 % of WoW players. And in relation to the subject of this thread, a lot of those players will hate doing 10-20 % less damage than other players of the same class because of covenants. It's not about elite players. Everyone who cares just a little bit about performance will be hurt by this.

90%, then blizzard has a good reason for doing what they are doing.

[Kaver]

90%, then blizzard has a good reason for doing what they are doing.

I'm not sure if you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth (written). A lot of player will most likely hate the covenants. Everyone who cares just a little bit about performance will soon realize that it suck to be 10-20 % behind on dps just because they chose the wrong covenant.

[razorpax]

But the point is the lock itself change the game. They want that game. Saying "Well, dont screw with my game and pretend you are locked" is not a valid argument. You can argue its creepy but the point is that no Swapping changes the game. Period. Even if you can pretend to be locked in the covenant, that is not the point, the point is to make your choices matter in your game. They want that game. They cannot pretend to be in a different game. It is not about the RP.

Also the week to week change will not be a thing, they have said as much. They will announce it properly, at least according to them. So changing covenants 3-4 times during an Expansion does not seem that bad, not if you are trying to stay at the cutting edge at least.

Since Vanilla? Well that did not happen at all, changing talents were a gold sink, because they intended to make the choices matter that time. I have several friends that made janky builds that had to farm in order to get the gold to reset. Sure, if you had the money, it was relatively easy, but not everyone did. And to those people, the talent system might aswell be a permanent decision.

They are not screwing with you, they want a game, you want another. And so far, the devs agree with the former group. I personally believe the best option would be some sort of secondary covenant, but that is just me. In the end, one thing is undeniable, if you have all the choices, all the time, you have no choice at all but the optimal one. Your gameplay is always controlled, whethet you like it or not, there is usually one or two right answers on how to beat a boss. You can only have one class in each character. You have to level this to do that. You need to do this dungeon to get this. Your gameplay is always being controlled. You have to play the game according to the rules, and they control what you can and cannot do. One could argue that the Devs work is to control how you play the game.

If that train of thought seens way too abstract or way to generalistic for you, approach the subject from a different angle. They are giving feedbakc in hopes of changing the game to the way they want. And you are trying to change the game to the way you want.

Tha being said, I fully expect them to walk back this decision, at least in some shape or form, maybe even before the launch. They are being pressured. Hard. Either way I know I will be fine, but I can see the problem that min maxers will go through, but I can also see the fact that a RPG without meaningful choices is a little weak.

Sorry for the long ramble.

my main issue is that trying to force a choice to be meaningful is garbage
unlcoking the player power still leaves you with the other 99% of the covenant system

now we get players who say "listen i never change talents based on fights and i will probably never swap covenants but fuck the guy that wants to have the game the same as before"

this isnt even new either
this is the same thing that happened with master loot and m+ gear locking

a small thing that literally wont effect anybody outside of one group that for some reason gets touted as awesome and game changing

placing a talent behind a time gate is not game changing its just an annoying change made and justified by an extremely weak reason that people buy.

"we dont think that having multiple sets of gear is a good thing"
players doing +15 or lower: yeah thats autistic losers
players doing +18 and higher: well there went the fun part

the initial masterloot change requiring a guild group was great but then they removed it because "trials desrve loot too"
players who only ever pugged and thus never dealt with it: yeah fuck those abusive guilds (20 stories of ninja looting proven fake)
guilds: well...lets try to work around it. (also gave loot to trials constantly just not BiS items from progression)

"we are making it to where you cant trade items of a higher item level than what you have because we dont want players to feel pressured"
idiots: yeah dont pressure us (stories about how they were FORCED to trade loot despite not mentioning the reason they got the kill was because the guild needed them to funnel gear)
people who understood this change: ok there goes trading off spec gear from personal loot and now im stuck with an OH in my bag thats lower than my 2h staff because i dont have an OH of a higher ilvl. Lets craft gear that is a much higher ilvl so we can go back to playing the game normally again.

my favorite part is the fact that blizzard has some ppl thinking that they wont screw with your meaningful choice. Ion said in an interview that they wont mess with abilities too bad and got called out on the fact that not only was that not a new line but they actually did in a more permanent way by screwing with an artifact weapon.

the game will launch and in about a week or so you will start seeing the complaints roll in. You will see the defenders of this system realize what they actually fought for and then in 9.1 instead of just unlocking the ability blizzard will make covenant swapping a click of a button....even though storywise it actually makes more sense to be able to swap easily anyways.

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I'm not sure if you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth (written). A lot of player will most likely hate the covenants. Everyone who cares just a little bit about performance will soon realize that it suck to be 10-20 % behind on dps just because they chose the wrong covenant.

but muh rp and muh meaningful choice

blizzzard said its a meaningful choice therefore it is because they arent wrong about anything ever
its their game so shut up its just beta

[Sluvs]

my main issue is that trying to force a choice to be meaningful is garbage
unlcoking the player power still leaves you with the other 99% of the covenant system

now we get players who say "listen i never change talents based on fights and i will probably never swap covenants but fuck the guy that wants to have the game the same as before"

this isnt even new either
this is the same thing that happened with master loot and m+ gear locking

a small thing that literally wont effect anybody outside of one group that for some reason gets touted as awesome and game changing

placing a talent behind a time gate is not game changing its just an annoying change made and justified by an extremely weak reason that people buy.

"we dont think that having multiple sets of gear is a good thing"
players doing +15 or lower: yeah thats autistic losers
players doing +18 and higher: well there went the fun part

the initial masterloot change requiring a guild group was great but then they removed it because "trials desrve loot too"
players who only ever pugged and thus never dealt with it: yeah fuck those abusive guilds (20 stories of ninja looting proven fake)
guilds: well...lets try to work around it. (also gave loot to trials constantly just not BiS items from progression)

"we are making it to where you cant trade items of a higher item level than what you have because we dont want players to feel pressured"
idiots: yeah dont pressure us (stories about how they were FORCED to trade loot despite not mentioning the reason they got the kill was because the guild needed them to funnel gear)
people who understood this change: ok there goes trading off spec gear from personal loot and now im stuck with an OH in my bag thats lower than my 2h staff because i dont have an OH of a higher ilvl. Lets craft gear that is a much higher ilvl so we can go back to playing the game normally again.

my favorite part is the fact that blizzard has some ppl thinking that they wont screw with your meaningful choice. Ion said in an interview that they wont mess with abilities too bad and got called out on the fact that not only was that not a new line but they actually did in a more permanent way by screwing with an artifact weapon.

the game will launch and in about a week or so you will start seeing the complaints roll in. You will see the defenders of this system realize what they actually fought for and then in 9.1 instead of just unlocking the ability blizzard will make covenant swapping a click of a button....even though storywise it actually makes more sense to be able to swap easily anyways.

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but muh rp and muh meaningful choice

blizzzard said its a meaningful choice therefore it is because they arent wrong about anything ever
its their game so shut up its just beta

Well the rest of the covenant system is not tied to player power and it is mostly for fun. But again, when you say:

"listen i never change talents based on fights and i will probably never swap covenants but fuck the guy that wants to have the game the same as before"

The point is that they want a different game from you. The min maxxers getting boned in the proccess is a consequence, not the goal.

Placing a talent behind a time gate does change the game, because player expectations will be different. It is clear to me that they want this expansion to be about meaningful choice and player agency.

You can argue that WoW never had meaningful choice, and I mostly agree with that. Following that train of thought, it does not make any sense for them to be enforcing something like this now. And that is a fair argument.

I think people that want it to be easy to swap are being a little too apocaliptic about it. I'm sure it will be fine, it does not excuse the system btw, but I do not think it will fundamentally break the game, I think it will just add needless busywork. And one thing that we have to consider is how the players will react to it, E.G.: If the players do not invite unoptimized player to the group, it could potentially be pretty bad. If players do invite them, but rather have someone more optimized (my personal guess) It will not be as much of a big deal and if they don't care, well, then it will be fine.

As for your examples, while I have a problem with the way you portrayed them, I can generally agree and understand where you are coming from.

[Vlaid]

Good, blizzard should grow a balls and spit on face of community playerbase that picks only what is best: "we told you so, pick what you like best".
Somehow their OV team can do that, why WoW team cant?
https://www.tomreakes.co.uk/post/ove...sive-balancing

Probably because you don't pick a hero at the start of a season of Overwatch and then get stuck with it unless you do multiple days of WQs.

[Kyux]

Yes, It's a choice we make. But it's a sucky choice. We shouldn't be put in a situation where we have to pick between RP and performance. It's not fun for us.

I disagree. You're making a choice on how you want to play the game and what you want to focus on. You're just fixated on the negative half of the equation. It's like saying "these talents suck because I don't get option B and C when I pick A." Yeah, that's how it works. You pick one option out of a selection at the expense of the others. "Oh lame, I can't shapeshift into a bear because I chose to play a warrior. This game sucks." It's the same kind of logic.

I bet that most players will play what they enjoy, and because they enjoy it they'll play better. Anyone that is absorbed by the theoretical BiS covenant either a) doesn't play well enough for it to make a difference, or b) will min-max anyway and the RP was never a consideration just as it never was in any world first race.

Or do you want the RP AND the DPS? You want talent A, B, AND C? You want to be a warrior than can cast frostbolt? You can't have everything and that makes the game better.

[Th3Scourge]

I disagree. You're making a choice on how you want to play the game and what you want to focus on. You're just fixated on the negative half of the equation. It's like saying "these talents suck because I don't get option B and C when I pick A." Yeah, that's how it works. You pick one option out of a selection at the expense of the others. "Oh lame, I can't shapeshift into a bear because I chose to play a warrior. This game sucks." It's the same kind of logic.

I bet that most players will play what they enjoy, and because they enjoy it they'll play better. Anyone that is absorbed by the theoretical BiS covenant either a) doesn't play well enough for it to make a difference, or b) will min-max anyway and the RP was never a consideration just as it never was in any world first race.

Or do you want the RP AND the DPS? You want talent A, B, AND C? You want to be a warrior than can cast frostbolt? You can't have everything and that makes the game better.

Except there's no "RP" tied to it. Literally none. It's just a dev team trying to force 'mEaNiNgFuL cHoIcE' on to players and pretending the game is an RPG and not an MMO.

Modern gaming is vastly different to the past they think they remember. Classic has proved, if anything, that metagaming dominates everything. Sure, you get some meme raids stacking meme classes for a meme kill. But they are so far and away outliers that they are statistically insignificant.