The Brexit aftermath thread

[dribbles]

The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

Well done Boris.

[Calfredd]

The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

So like crap then.

[Kallisto]

The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

Well done Boris.

56% voted against Boris brexit and for the choice to remain either directly or through a second vote.

[Mihalik]

The WA is null and void. It was signed on condition at the time of an envisaged future UK/EU Canada style deal which is now not possible. No one should be surprised that a newly sovereign nation is asserting its sovereignty. The majority in the UK voted for exactly that and brexit is working exactly as intended.

Well done Boris.

That's a lot of horseshit.

The withdrawal agreement wasn't signed under any condition that this or that would be signed in the future.

The treaty specifically says that if not future agreement is to be reached than a No Deal Brexit would be the default outcome. But that doesn't not invalidate any of the previously agreed upon points of the treaty.

What side of your ass did you pull that piece of bullshit from?

Furthermore even if Boris actually decided to ignore parts of treaty he would first have to pass it through parliament as the treaty was signed into law by parliament. He could probably pull it off considering the state of the British government, but that would almost instantly be challenged in the courts especially by Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The treaty is certainly not "null and void" not by the standards of international law nor by the standards of British law.

Also as a final point, Britain has always been sovereign, all EU member states are sovereign. It's not a new country coming into existence or whatnot...its an existing country that as a sovereign entity went into an international agreement and is now trying to reneg on its obligations and given word, like a failed third world Banana republic.

[Twdft]

When all this is done the British will realise that they are just a couple isles in the Atlantic.

[Lynarii]

That's a lot of horseshit.

The withdrawal agreement wasn't signed under any condition that this or that would be signed in the future.

The treaty specifically says that if not future agreement is to be reached than a No Deal Brexit would be the default outcome. But that doesn't not invalidate any of the previously agreed upon points of the treaty.

What side of your ass did you pull that piece of bullshit from?

Furthermore even if Boris actually decided to ignore parts of treaty he would first have to pass it through parliament as the treaty was signed into law by parliament. He could probably pull it off considering the state of the British government, but that would almost instantly be challenged in the courts especially by Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The treaty is certainly not "null and void" not by the standards of international law nor by the standards of British law.

Also as a final point, Britain has always been sovereign, all EU member states are sovereign. It's not a new country coming into existence or whatnot...its an existing country that as a sovereign entity went into an international agreement and is now trying to reneg on its obligations and given word, like a failed third world Banana republic.

The problem, as I understand it, is that it doesn't really matter if it's UK law even. All the Tories need to do is not actually put up any border checks on goods headed towards Ireland, and who in the UK will punish them for it? The EU will be pissed, but all they can do about it is put up a hard border ON Ireland, which the Tories will then whine and moan about how the evil EU is breaking the GFA and betraying the good will of the British citizens. And people like Dribbles will eat it up and ask for more.

[dribbles]

56% voted against Boris brexit and for the choice to remain either directly or through a second vote.

That's not correct. At the 3rd or 4th vote we had on brexit, the last just a few months ago in the 2019 GE, Boris went to the people asking for a mandate to "get brexit done". The people responded by returning 365/650 seats in favour of Boris's good men. Or 56% of seats in favour of the Tory get brexit done party, giving them the biggest majority for almost 50 years.

That's a lot of horseshit.

The withdrawal agreement wasn't signed under any condition that this or that would be signed in the future.

The treaty specifically says that if not future agreement is to be reached than a No Deal Brexit would be the default outcome. But that doesn't not invalidate any of the previously agreed upon points of the treaty.

What side of your ass did you pull that piece of bullshit from?

Furthermore even if Boris actually decided to ignore parts of treaty he would first have to pass it through parliament as the treaty was signed into law by parliament. He could probably pull it off considering the state of the British government, but that would almost instantly be challenged in the courts especially by Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The treaty is certainly not "null and void" not by the standards of international law nor by the standards of British law.

Also as a final point, Britain has always been sovereign, all EU member states are sovereign. It's not a new country coming into existence or whatnot...its an existing country that as a sovereign entity went into an international agreement and is now trying to reneg on its obligations and given word, like a failed third world Banana republic.

See above, with such a massive and legitimate democratic majority in the UK parliament what exactly do you think Boris cannot do?

The UK internal market bill being tabled tomorrow will be passed unilaterally re-writing and overriding the WA that we backed out of after discovering the EU falsely negotiating in bad faith a deal that is not on the terms they promised at the time of the UK WA signature.

It is not the UK that is breaking the WA treaty, the EU did that months ago by failing to negotiate in good faith, also a term used in the WA. I'm just surprised the UK has been so patient with them, never mind we will get there in the end.

[Mihalik]

sip

Those are some mighty fine delusions and a whole lot of bullshit.

The UK can unilaterally breach the treaty. But that makes the UK a joke internationally, exposes to the UK as an unreliable negotiating partner, will have severe economic consequences to adds further fuel to the fire of the internal fracture between England, Scotland and NI and reignites the Irish border crisis and the constitutional problems around that.

But again, you are clearly delusional.

[Gorsameth]

The problem, as I understand it, is that it doesn't really matter if it's UK law even. All the Tories need to do is not actually put up any border checks on goods headed towards Ireland, and who in the UK will punish them for it? The EU will be pissed, but all they can do about it is put up a hard border ON Ireland, which the Tories will then whine and moan about how the evil EU is breaking the GFA and betraying the good will of the British citizens. And people like Dribbles will eat it up and ask for more.

Dribbles will eat it up, but dribbles opinion is irrelevant since I don't believe he lives in Ireland or NI. And I wouldn't be so sure people there will see his point of view.

As UK law it matters because that means the UK courts can try to compel the government to honour the agreement. What happens when the PM ignores the UK courts? Well someone more versed in UK law and government would have to answer that.
As for the EU, there is a section on arbitration in the WA. If a party is believed to be in breach an arbitration court is set up which reviews the claim and can impose fines. Which the UK could once again ignore. At which point the other party can take proportional measures. I don't think a post no-deal Brexit UK would be very eager for trade sanctions.

[Mihalik]

The problem, as I understand it, is that it doesn't really matter if it's UK law even. All the Tories need to do is not actually put up any border checks on goods headed towards Ireland, and who in the UK will punish them for it? The EU will be pissed, but all they can do about it is put up a hard border ON Ireland, which the Tories will then whine and moan about how the evil EU is breaking the GFA and betraying the good will of the British citizens. And people like Dribbles will eat it up and ask for more.

Not necessarily. The UK had the advantage of interacting with a good faith actor who is committed to a rule and norm based behavior.

If the EU actually chooses to it can unilaterally grant Northern Ireland a series of exemptions with the ultimate goal of promoting Irish unification while punishing the UK in the areas of services, import-export, intellectual property and simultaneously could write up a whole set of resolutions on how it could fast track the reintegration of an independent Scotland.

There are quite a few major EU players who have been advocating for a hard line stance against the UK, chiefly among them France, who mostly accepted the current milquetoast attitude towards the UK for the benefit of the EU members still under the illusion that the UK is a serious country.

But I think the Brits have disabused everyone of that foolish idea by now. It's clear that Boris wants a confrontation and will do whatever it takes to get it so they might as well give Boris one, while also constantly exulting "our British friends".

[lagiacrux]

A majority of British people don't want this. It doesn't help the cause of you people to keep describing Brexiteers as "Brits" and trying to denigrate what is still an essentially strong economic country, its precisely that kind of retarded xenophobia that caused people to vote for Brexit in the first place.

look at my field of fucks and see that it is barren. the "brits" had god knows how many elections to show this "majority". they didnt. it sucks to those who tried to vote for reason, but what do you expect us to do?

[lagiacrux]

I don't care what you do I'm just posting out your motivation is as exactly the same as your typical Brexiteer. Become more self-aware maybe.

judging people by their voting results is "typical brexiteer motivation"? ok then ...

[zealo]

That's not correct. At the 3rd or 4th vote we had on brexit, the last just a few months ago in the 2019 GE, Boris went to the people asking for a mandate to "get brexit done". The people responded by returning 365/650 seats in favour of Boris's good men. Or 56% of seats in favour of the Tory get brexit done party, giving them the biggest majority for almost 50 years.

The conservatives got 43.6% of the vote in the 2019 election.

That is not under any circumstances a majority of the electorate wanting Boris Johnson's Brexit, it is rather a sign of how broken the UK electoral system is if 43.6% of the vote nets a party 56% of seats in parliament.

[Slant]

Not necessarily. The UK had the advantage of interacting with a good faith actor who is committed to a rule and norm based behavior.

If the EU actually chooses to it can unilaterally grant Northern Ireland a series of exemptions with the ultimate goal of promoting Irish unification while punishing the UK in the areas of services, import-export, intellectual property and simultaneously could write up a whole set of resolutions on how it could fast track the reintegration of an independent Scotland.

There are quite a few major EU players who have been advocating for a hard line stance against the UK, chiefly among them France, who mostly accepted the current milquetoast attitude towards the UK for the benefit of the EU members still under the illusion that the UK is a serious country.

But I think the Brits have disabused everyone of that foolish idea by now. It's clear that Boris wants a confrontation and will do whatever it takes to get it so they might as well give Boris one, while also constantly exulting "our British friends".

We're better than that. See, the EU is a good faith actor, because at some point in the distant future we'd like the UK to have the option to come back. They are still our friends and as is usually the case among friends, it's not a big deal if you get into a fight as long as you can still talk to each other afterwards.

[dribbles]

Dribbles will eat it up, but dribbles opinion is irrelevant since I don't believe he lives in Ireland or NI. And I wouldn't be so sure people there will see his point of view.

As UK law it matters because that means the UK courts can try to compel the government to honour the agreement. What happens when the PM ignores the UK courts? Well someone more versed in UK law and government would have to answer that.
As for the EU, there is a section on arbitration in the WA. If a party is believed to be in breach an arbitration court is set up which reviews the claim and can impose fines. Which the UK could once again ignore. At which point the other party can take proportional measures. I don't think a post no-deal Brexit UK would be very eager for trade sanctions.

The problem with that is the UK courts have to follow UK law. Who makes UK law? That's our Boris. If Boris doesn't like a current law he can just make a new one via his massive democratic majority in parliament that UK courts must follow. And he can make/change laws very quickly overnight as can be witnessed from the recent muzzling order imposed on the UK population in response to the coronavirus. It's a benefit of brexit that he no longer has to refer to the EU for consent. /three cheers for brexit!

If he decides that the WA is for the dustbin, that is where it will go. We will see that process begin to happen tomorrow.

You are correct in that I don't live in NI, I live in brexit Britain. In one of the places coloured here in Blue on this map who also voted by the millions the same way as I. A lot of blue isn't there, a majority many might say.

[Gorsameth]

The conservatives got 43.6% of the vote in the 2019 election.

That is not under any circumstances a majority of the electorate wanting Boris Johnson's Brexit, it is rather a sign of how broken the UK electoral system is if 43.6% of the vote nets a party 56% of seats in parliament.

Then perhaps this majority should be protesting more to save their country.

[zealo]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...u-b413813.html

And just to re-iterate what has been stated before in here regarding current events, if the UK rips up the WA in such a fashion that it endangers the GFA, there will be no UK trade deal with the US in the immediate future, so long as the Democrats is in control of parts of US congress.

“If the UK does it in such a way that it violates the Good Friday Agreement, there will be no US-UK free trade agreement,” Mr Boyle said.

“So, the UK needs to understand there will be consequences that stretch well beyond trust dealings with the EU on this matter.”

[Temp name]

That's not correct. At the 3rd or 4th vote we had on brexit,

You've only had 1 vote on Brexit. Every other vote you've had has also been about other things.

the last just a few months ago in the 2019 GE, Boris went to the people asking for a mandate to "get brexit done". The people responded by returning 365/650 seats in favour of Boris's good men. Or 56% of seats in favour of the Tory get brexit done party, giving them the biggest majority for almost 50 years.

But that's the results with a shit FPTP system, not the actual votes. How many people actually voted for him? Because it's not 56%. Wikipedia says it's only 43.6%
Oh, and that's 43.6% of the turnout, which Wikipedia says is only 67.3% of the total voting populace.

[Slant]

You've only had 1 vote on Brexit. Every other vote you've had has also been about other things.

But that's the results with a shit FPTP system, not the actual votes. How many people actually voted for him? Because it's not 56%. Wikipedia says it's only 43.6%
Oh, and that's 43.6% of the turnout, which Wikipedia says is only 67.3% of the total voting populace.

That's just playing with numbers to make you feel better about the result. The UK decided on a voting system, everyone had the same chance and Cameron blew it. That's the bottom line. He thought he could get away with it, because the "right answer" was obvious, and many people mistook it as an opportunity to shove it up some snobby arse from Westminster.

And then you have the trolls like Dribbles that latch onto anything funny enough to entertain them for a while, because fuck consequences. It's a bit of a perfect storm in terms of bad decision process, but you won't change anything by reiterating how low the supporting percentage was. Same way he's pretending 52% means all British, you can't go pretending 48% means the majority didn't want it. Children don't count, anyone who didn't vote doesn't count. The only meaningful number is the number of valid ballots handed in. Sorry.

[dribbles]

Then perhaps this majority should be protesting more to save their country.

It is strange that no one in the UK is protesting isn't it, perhaps everyone like me now educated and informed on the clear benefits of restoring UK sovereignty by brexit finds nothing to protest about.

You've only had 1 vote on Brexit. Every other vote you've had has also been about other things.

But that's the results with a shit FPTP system, not the actual votes. How many people actually voted for him? Because it's not 56%. Wikipedia says it's only 43.6%
Oh, and that's 43.6% of the turnout, which Wikipedia says is only 67.3% of the total voting populace.

That's a different debate though and is complaining about an established democratic system with well known rules that doesn't deliver the result you would like. You can't go around changing the system every time the vote doesn't go your way, that would lead to chaos.