War (?) has broken out in Nagorno-Karabakh between Armenia and Azerbaijan

[Easo]

Update - Azeri drones are grounded due to bad weather (hello fighting in mountains), but there are offensives on the ground. Front is overall stable and the position warfare has set in. Azerbaijan supposedly took the strategically important town of Jabrayil yesterday, but again, supposedly, they lost it today and were beaten back.
Both sides are shooting tactical missiles at each other like it's Christmas.

Didn't say they had been used, just that they would not be very accurate either.

MANPADs are not a threat to high flying aircraft. The service ceiling of the Su-25 is twice that of the effective max altitude of the SA-16. It is heavier systems like the SA-10 that keep them from being used in strategic bombing. The use of inaccurate stand-off weapons is actually more of an escalation than the use of more precise air launched missiles. When one cannot use one's air force, one resorts to lobbing less capable rockets and missiles.

Su-25 is pretty much useless for high altitude bombing unless heavily upgraded (which none of the Caucasian ones are, they all are close to what they were when rolling off the Soviet factories decades ago) and the service ceiling for it is abysmally low (and it cannot go there anyway unless fully unloaded). Flying at 5km (it won't, it will be much lower) will make it both useless and vulnerable to manpads, not to mention anything heavier.
Sure, you can evade one missile. But can you evade, say, 5? They won't bomb much when under constant targeting.
This shit already happened in Donbas, did not go too well for Ukraine.

I find it troublesome that no news program in Holland has reported on this yet. Like: at all. Really shows our liberal western media is coloured as fuck.

Sounds like the most absolute bullshit ever, because Western media clearly is reporting it. I see an article right now on BBC (and there have been more than one since the war started) and I bet that they are there on Netherlands media too.

Ethnically / genetically, Armenians and Azeri seem very similar to me.

Let's get a few things straight.


3 Azerbaijan appears to have clusterbombed Nagorno-Karabakh
5 Azerbaijan has the stated goal of ethnically cleansing all of Nagorno-Karabakh
7 The Azeri dam provides electricity to a huge part of the country and is a valid military target

They are not genetically similar - Azeris are Turkic people, having later in that region, due to the Persian empire shenanigans, IIRC. Are Caucasian nations similar overall culture wise? Yes and no, it really depends on specific stuff.

3. Yes, got the same back too, IIRC. Also, does not officially matter as both sides have not signed the cluster munitions treaty, just bad from moral aspect.
5. No, it is not. It is obvious, of course, that at least minimum of "voluntary exodus" would happen, but it is not an official policy. No country says stupid shit like that nowadays, not "cool" anymore.
7. Would be a foolish mistake almost guaranteed to incur Azerbaijan answering in kind with everything and possibly targeting Armenia's nuclear power plant.
It is not a valid military target unless you wanna drown bunch of civilians. Trust me, Armenia would love to avoid loosing what little of the world's support they have.

[Thekri]

Both sides are shooting tactical missiles at each other like it's Christmas.

How the hell do you celebrate Christmas!?

As far as the people saying the media isn't covering it, this is a good opportunity to do some introspection about the types of media you consume. Because yeah, this isn't getting much coverage on Prime Time MSNBC, and Colbert and Carlson aren't going to spend air time on this, but real news is covering it a lot. In short, if your media bubble doesn't include this conflict, you need to expand your media bubble. Talk shows are not news. Most prime time news shows are barely news.

[Kellhound]

Update - Azeri drones are grounded due to bad weather (hello fighting in mountains), but there are offensives on the ground. Front is overall stable and the position warfare has set in. Azerbaijan supposedly took the strategically important town of Jabrayil yesterday, but again, supposedly, they lost it today and were beaten back.
Both sides are shooting tactical missiles at each other like it's Christmas.



Su-25 is pretty much useless for high altitude bombing unless heavily upgraded (which none of the Caucasian ones are, they all are close to what they were when rolling off the Soviet factories decades ago) and the service ceiling for it is abysmally low (and it cannot go there anyway unless fully unloaded). Flying at 5km (it won't, it will be much lower) will make it both useless and vulnerable to manpads, not to mention anything heavier.
Sure, you can evade one missile. But can you evade, say, 5? They won't bomb much when under constant targeting.
This shit already happened in Donbas, did not go too well for Ukraine.

The SA-16's ceiling is 3500m, not 5000m. The Su-25's accuracy at altitude is not much worse than the SS-21's, but I would wager that both sides have more iron bombs than tactical missiles. Bombing is always preferable for strategic targets when practical, but the laughably small air forces of both sides would not stand a chance against the moderate heavy SAM defenses they each have. This is further shown by Armenia's reluctance to commit their handful of Su-30s to offensive operations.

[Kante]

Both sides are shooting tactical missiles at each other like it's Christmas.

Not many reports on that aside from two instances on video, one of the Azeri use of LORA to strike a bridge connecting Nagorno-Karabakh to Armenian side and one video of Armenian "Tochka" launch at undisclosed location.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

7. Would be a foolish mistake almost guaranteed to incur Azerbaijan answering in kind with everything and possibly targeting Armenia's nuclear power plant.
It is not a valid military target unless you wanna drown bunch of civilians. Trust me, Armenia would love to avoid loosing what little of the world's support they have.

According to some reports the Metsamor Nuclear power plant has already been targeted by missiles as early as October 2nd, and again yesterday, with the missiles being intercepted by armenian S-300.

[breadisfunny]

Admit you are wrong and move on, Themius. The main and real stakes in this are - Armenia/Azerbaijan (duh), Turkey and Russia. In addition Russia sells weapons to both and has an army base (for peacekeeping purposes) in Armenia proper plus has huge economic influence on both countries, while Turkey supplies just Azeris. Plus there is some small stake in Iran vs Turkey via Armenia as proxy.

P.S.
There was a bearded joke in Russian forums that if all Armenians and Azeris currently working in Russia would right now go back to their countries the conflict would end in days (if you have ever been in Moscow you would know the basis for this).



That is correct.



Isn't MMOchamp's forum wonderful?

themius would rather immolate himself then admit he's wrong on anything.

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Azerbaijan seems to be using cluster munitions on civilian sites. I am pretty fucking sure Turkish advisors are not involved.

your obvious turkish bias is showing.

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Tell me, where were you when Stepanakert was under bombardment? It was started quite some time before Armenians answered in kind. Why complain only now?



The Azerbaijani exclave of Nakhchivan also was "cleaned" of Armenians and their gravesites destroyed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni...etery_in_Julfa plus there was some bullshit from Baku about how Armenians have never lived there.

Obviously Armenians were also "nice" to local Azeri's and the wheel just turns and turns.

in case you can't tell he's 100% pro turkey by his post history alone. i also believe he supports that disgusting pos edrogan. i could be wrong. imo the us should just pull their assets out of turkey and remove edrogan themselves and do the world a favor.

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Seems like you are making the argument for getting kicked out of NATO yourself. If your agenda isn't aligning with either the US or France, it is probably time to go, because those are the most powerful two members of the alliance (And it isn't like Turkey gets along with Germany or the UK either). NATO is an alliance, not a geographic region. If you aren't aligned with their policy, you don't belong in the alliance, as simple as that.

The "End of US Hegemony" thing is irrelevant to this conversation, since the US is barely involved in any of this. The only relevant part they play in this is that it is our Nukes that are in Turkey, and I definitely think those should be withdrawn. Their presence no longer serves a purpose, and endangers Turkey for no advantage to its population. As far as domestic fighter jets, you should definitely think about building those. Trying to buy S-400s and F-35s at the same time is nothing but fad chasing, you build your military out of equipment from all over the world, and you are shooting yourself in the foot on logistics. And since both the US and Russia increasingly distrust Turkey, you are going to have a hell of a time getting parts for either of those systems.

So by all means, go make your own way in the world. But when you piss off everyone and have no allies, it isn't going to go well for you. Turkey is making no friends (Except Azerbaijan I guess), and they are pissing off damn near everyone. And maybe stop attacking the Kurds and Armenians. There probably won't actually be any consequences for murdering them, because nobody really cares enough to stop you, but it just isn't nice to murder people for their ethnicity.

if history is any indication (i.e. world war 2) piss off enough people and eventually they will go after you and smash your face in.

[Fuiking]

How the hell do you celebrate Christmas!?

As far as the people saying the media isn't covering it, this is a good opportunity to do some introspection about the types of media you consume. Because yeah, this isn't getting much coverage on Prime Time MSNBC, and Colbert and Carlson aren't going to spend air time on this, but real news is covering it a lot. In short, if your media bubble doesn't include this conflict, you need to expand your media bubble. Talk shows are not news. Most prime time news shows are barely news.

I checked: Telegraaf, Algemeen Dagblad, NU.nl and several more newspaper sites.. almost no mention about that war whatsoever. And if its mentioned it goes along the lines of: azeris and armenians fighting each other on our streets. And this is all in Holland. Thereturn is right.

[Biglog]

10/7 - "Putin rules out military intervention in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Says Russia has obligation to defend Armenia but fighting is on Azerbaijani soil." Not what the Armenians wanted to hear I'm sure. It kind of settles things for Armenia. I don't see how they can hold Nagorno-Karabakh on their own vs. Azerbaijan with Turkish help. Turkey is really good at drones and is running the management of air assets for Azerbaijan, so they are very heavily involved just not on the ground. It's also a bit harsh by Putin basically admitting that Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijani soil.

One positive for the Armenian side, it does feel at least like an affirmation from Putin that if things escalated into an invasion of Armenia proper that Russia would assist.

[Easo]

Drones are being used again, Armenians are doing some counterattacks. It is unclear what the exact situation on the front line is, as usual, but Azeris have taken Jabrayil (strategically important) for the, umm, second time now. More and more information about Syrian fighters being used.
Armenia published KIA list twice today, total 80 dead on their side - absolute majority are 20 year olds, just boys...
Azeris, of course, are still being silent about their military losses. They also are doing really funny propaganda videos with bullshit in them - even got called out on Azeri forums (which usually does not happen).

Some shot down drones and missiles (?) fell down in Georgia, Iran is also complaining about crap flying over to them.

The SA-16's ceiling is 3500m, not 5000m. The Su-25's accuracy at altitude is not much worse than the SS-21's, but I would wager that both sides have more iron bombs than tactical missiles. Bombing is always preferable for strategic targets when practical, but the laughably small air forces of both sides would not stand a chance against the moderate heavy SAM defenses they each have. This is further shown by Armenia's reluctance to commit their handful of Su-30s to offensive operations.

Yes, too much AA. Even if manpads cant reach them, the remaining OSAs would, not to mention S-300 if it really comes to that. And mountains sucks for strike craft, not to mention as you said - too small airforce to matter. Azeris have a reasonable number of helis but even those are almost unused.

According to some reports the Metsamor Nuclear power plant has already been targeted by missiles as early as October 2nd, and again yesterday, with the missiles being intercepted by armenian S-300.

We do not know, it was most likely Armenian bullshit. Their S-300 were shooting at something, but no one knows what exactly it was. Shooting at nuclear station would result in possibly really bad international situation for Azerbaijan. No one wants another nuclear catastrophe.

[Kuntantee]

your obvious turkish bias is showing.

I just stated that the side I support uses cluster bombs and I criticized them and yet I am called biased. That's the kind of droids you bunch are.

[AeneasBK]

your obvious turkish bias is showing.

I just stated that the side I support uses cluster bombs and I criticized them and yet I am called bias. That's the kind of droids you bunch are.

No you said "My side is using drones but I highly doubt it's because any of my guys told them to"

[Kuntantee]

10/7 - "Putin rules out military intervention in Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. Says Russia has obligation to defend Armenia but fighting is on Azerbaijani soil." Not what the Armenians wanted to hear I'm sure. It kind of settles things for Armenia. I don't see how they can hold Nagorno-Karabakh on their own vs. Azerbaijan with Turkish help. Turkey is really good at drones and is running the management of air assets for Azerbaijan, so they are very heavily involved just not on the ground. It's also a bit harsh by Putin basically admitting that Nagorno-Karabakh is Azerbaijani soil.

One positive for the Armenian side, it does feel at least like an affirmation from Putin that if things escalated into an invasion of Armenia proper that Russia would assist.

Armenia did not only occupy NK but Azerbaijani soil surrounding the "disputed territory" under the pretext of OPSEC. There is maybe a remote argument that you can make about the occupation of NK but for the rest, there is no. Those regions are Azerbaijan proper and are under active invasion.

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No you said "My side is using drones but I highly doubt it's because any of my guys told them to"

What? Where did I say that?

[AeneasBK]

What? Where did I say that?

Literally, if not verbatim, in the part that Breadisfunny quoted when accusing your bias of showing.

[Pohut]

Let's hope Azerbaijan takes back their lands without much more bloodshed. Looks like Armenian president already calling for negotiations. With Russia abandoning them, I don't think they have much choice.

[Kuntantee]

Let's get a few things straight.

1 Azerbaijan started this war -> The war started when Armenia invaded UN-recognized Azerbaijan soil.
2 Azerbaijan is using islamist militants from Syria and Libya and elsewhere -> evidence or bullshit
3 Azerbaijan appears to have clusterbombed Nagorno-Karabakh -> looks like they did, let's condemn all parties, including Armenia for bombing civilian sides.
4 Azerbaijan is shelling all over Nagorno-Karabakh -> see 3
5 Azerbaijan has the stated goal of ethnically cleansing all of Nagorno-Karabakh -> Where did they state it? Well, Armenia massacred any Azerbaijan Turk they could catch after the war so things are two way street. People who defend Armenian shelling of civilians with garbage like "what are they supposed to do when they are shelled" are silent here. I guess crimes are defended only if Armenia commits them.
6 Armenia is not at war. Though many Armenians serve in the Nagorno-Karabakh military -> Turkey is not in war, if TAF was involved, Armenian Army would be removed from existence within a week.
7 The Azeri dam provides electricity to a huge part of the country and is a valid military target -> No one, including Turkey, will allow them to do such thing. They know this pretty well.
8 World media, including Western media, have reported extensively from both sides perspectives -> Your bias is so pathological that you are beyond saving.

Fixed your garbage.

Azerbaijan didn't exist until 1991.

Same applies to Armenia, your point?

Nagorno-Karabakh has been Armenian for centuries if not millennia.

"NK was ArmAnIAN for DAUZENDS YeEErs".

Who gives a fuck though?

The Armenians in NK are clearly trying to make the Azeris, who were already about to riot against their government, think twice. The Azeri president is wagging the dog. Same reason why he shut down the internet in Azerbaijan as he ordered the islamist mercenaries to attack.

You keep repeating the same insults and lies again and again as if we Turks give a flying crap.

A just war? Rarely if ever has such a thing existed.

Yes, and this is one of them. They should leave all regions surrounding NK effective immediately. Sort the rest with Azerbaijan.

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Literally, if not verbatim, in the part that Breadisfunny quoted when accusing your bias of showing.

What I wanted to say is that if Turkish advisors were involved, they wouldn't allow them to bomb civilian sites with cluster bombs. I am waiting for your next non-sense though, I wonder how are you going to turn this simple statement around.

As for our involvement, we sold them drones and that's perfectly legal under UN law so long as you follow the procedure. Armenia also purchase hardware from Russians so unless you are telling Azerbaijan Turks shouldn't arm themselves, what you are saying is utter non-sense.

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Here is a video of a city in Azerbaijan (proper) being shelled by Armenians.

"BuT AzeRis DeserVe To DieAA, ThAy GANUCIDE ArMaNiaEns"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZBwml9hp2Q

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They are not genetically similar - Azeris are Turkic people, having later in that region

This is how ignorant you are. Armenians are the closest to Turks when it comes to genetics (haplogroups).

[AeneasBK]

What I wanted to say is that if Turkish advisors were involved, they wouldn't allow them to bomb civilian sites with cluster bombs.

Good, that's how everyone read it, too.

[Easo]

Supposedly Armenians managed to make a feint by retreating and lured a lot of Azerbaijan's forces into trap, then inflicted "huge losses" upon them, whole Jabrayil was a ruse. A lot of bullshit is being thrown around, but there is a fresh video with long Azeri convoy deserted and overtaken by Armenians. Something did happen, question is, what and how big this is.

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1313903827435892737

So... Those are F-16 in Azerbaijan. If the date is correct then you can make some obvious conclusions.

P.S.
Funniest propaganda piece recently was "Azerbaijani soldiers visiting a liberated Armenian woman". One of the soldiers looks exaaaactly like a journalist from a different photo op

"NK was ArmAnIAN for DAUZENDS YeEErs".

Who gives a fuck though?

This is how ignorant you are. Armenians are the closest to Turks when it comes to genetics (haplogroups).

So I can demand a piece of Turkey, Kuntantee? Who cares that Turks lived there, right? I mean, we love breeding ethnic conflicts, don't we?

Ah yes, I am ignorant. This sounds like some of the bullshit that came from Azerbaijan - that Armenians are not the local natives, that they have never lived in Nakhchivan, etc. Goes well in hand with the destruction of their centuries old graveyards.

[Kuntantee]

Ah yes, I am ignorant.

Just read the genetic research. There is also a wiki page. Closest doesn't mean the same but proximity seems to be the main relation when it comes to genetics. I am going to ignore the rest of garbage in your post.

[Thenadrys]

You keep repeating the same insults and lies again and again as if we Turks give a flying crap.

I haven't made a single insult. You've made loads. I'm not even going to bother answering you because you're clearly too emotional to deal with reality.

Armenia didn't come into existence in 1991, it has existed for over 2200 years. One of the oldest nations in the world. You can't have an "historical claim" to territory that you 1) Have never truly possessed 2) Your people do not live in and 3) existed thousands of years prior to your own country

Armenians are the indigenous people of Nagorno-Karabakh and no amount of childish insults is going to change that.

Just how many genocides must the Armenians suffer?

No, it's time for NATO and Europe to intervene.

[Kellhound]

Supposedly Armenians managed to make a feint by retreating and lured a lot of Azerbaijan's forces into trap, then inflicted "huge losses" upon them, whole Jabrayil was a ruse. A lot of bullshit is being thrown around, but there is a fresh video with long Azeri convoy deserted and overtaken by Armenians. Something did happen, question is, what and how big this is.

https://twitter.com/trbrtc/status/1313903827435892737

So... Those are F-16 in Azerbaijan. If the date is correct then you can make some obvious conclusions.

P.S.
Funniest propaganda piece recently was "Azerbaijani soldiers visiting a liberated Armenian woman". One of the soldiers looks exaaaactly like a journalist from a different photo op



So I can demand a piece of Turkey, Kuntantee? Who cares that Turks lived there, right? I mean, we love breeding ethnic conflicts, don't we?

Ah yes, I am ignorant. This sounds like some of the bullshit that came from Azerbaijan - that Armenians are not the local natives, that they have never lived in Nakhchivan, etc. Goes well in hand with the destruction of their centuries old graveyards.

2 F-16s are not going to be of much help besides local air defense. Turkey would have to airlift in all of the ordnance, spare parts, and maintenance equipment/crews. That is a lot more than a small 2 engine cargo plane can move. Plus, it lacks significant maintenance space, and the revetments and taxiways from its days as a Soviet air base are very run down.