Let us all at least agree to this:

[NED funded]

Thats kinda dumb

You can dislike tokens while also buying them

Its like a top pvp player complaining about a certain spec being broken but also playing it, it would be stupid to not do otherwise

[Queen of Hamsters]

People won't let hypocricy stop them from whining.

People also won't get over their ex-partner syndrome with ease. Some have suffered from it for a decade by now.

So the only thing we can agree on, is that we can't all agree. WoW token FTW though, it's saved me so much money.

[Maxilian]

In my case, it doesn't make me angry that there is a transmogs thing on the shop, but as someone who plays wow and like transmog a lot and spend most of my time getting stuff for it, it does displease me that there's stuff that i can't get in game, mostly because its HIGH QUALITY stuff, making me feel that most things of such quality are going to stay as a cash shop thing (same problem i had with the cash shop helmets, as they are the most "interesting" head pieces around). as long as this doesn't become a trend i'm ok with it.

Is is that bad? No, that doesn't change i like it and a part of me think that is also fault of the new management Blizzard have (that push for profit over good product)

[Magical Mudcrab]

No you dont. You Pay for the Service provided. That is the Game that is already there. Future GameContent is in itself again an Investment made by the Company.

Its the Hope of the Consumer that the Money flows to the Development of future Content. Blizzard sells you Access to the Game. You Pay for said Access. Your Money flows into the big "Blizzard" Pot, from which certain amounts of Money flow to the Different Projects.

Its a common Practice, not exclusive to Games. Check a Restaurant. You dont buy a Drink, and expect that Money to be used only to buy Drinks. In Reality, cheap stuff like Fries, Drinks, Coffee pay for the Expensive Stuff.

Your subscription does multiple things: (1) it provides access to the game, (2) pays for content development. Your argument could be applied to Blizzard requesting players pay for patches, or anything really. This cyclical logic of "it happens, therefore it happens" doesn't actually address anything substantive, but is a strange pedantic way of saying that Blizzard can do whatever they want. This is true, but that doesn't mean that it would be the right choice or that players would like it.

This part is Funny. You say, the Subscription is supposed to flow into the Game, and into the surplus for the Company to invest.
Now, how do you know that the Store Items eat from the "Active Development" Budget, and not from the "Company Invest" Budget?

To make it clear, I dont have any idea how Blizzard manages Budgets and Investmants. But I doubt anyone else here either. Point is, most likely all revenue goes into the big Blizzard Pot, and each project gets certain Budget.

When I say reinvest, I obviously mean back into the game. The expectation is that the company will hire additional staff or dedicate more resources to the actual development of the core game. Any other interpretation is just bad faith. When Blizzard takes money and uses it to develop content, gate it from players, and then sell that same content to players to double down on those dollars, there's a question as to whether this is good practice.

But thats a Consumer Problem. Blizzard never told you what they do with the Money. You just think/expect what they do with it, but in reality, its none of your Business.
Do you think you have any say in what the Store does with the Money you paid for your Computer? Its presumptuous

When you pay an active subscription, the buy-in is different from a one-time purchase. You are paying a monthly amount with the expectation of delivered content. You could try and double down on the claim that the subscription is only for access, but that would be horrifically disingenuous. There is, and always has been, the expectation for additional/future content to be delivered. When this money is being used for content that will then be gated to you, there is obviously going to be players who are not OK with that, and players, essentially, do pay for the right to both play the game and complain about it if they want.

Attempting to constantly reduce the situation by comparing it to dissimilar avenues of service, or simply accepting bad practice as a thing and then handwaving anything which could be against said practice, is not incredibly constructive.

[LanToaster]

Your subscription does multiple things: (1) it provides access to the game, (2) pays for content development.

Sure it does. You Pay Blizzard, and Blizzard grants you access to the game. And Blizzard uses the Money. But you have no influence in what Blizzard does with the Money.

Your argument could be applied to Blizzard requesting players pay for patches, or anything really.

And they do. We call these Patches: Expansions

This cyclical logic of "it happens, therefore it happens" doesn't actually address anything substantive, but is a strange pedantic way of saying that Blizzard can do whatever they want. This is true, but that doesn't mean that it would be the right choice or that players would like it.

That is simply because: Blizzard can do whatever the hell they want. Its neither Right nor Wrong, and if the players like it or not is completely Irrelvant.
Because Players:
A: Dont know what Blizzard does with the Money, or how much Money from whatever sources go into which project.
B: You have no Businsess in Knowing either.

When I say reinvest, I obviously mean back into the game. The expectation is that the company will hire additional staff or dedicate more resources to the actual development of the core game. Any other interpretation is just bad faith. When Blizzard takes money and uses it to develop content, gate it from players, and then sell that same content to players to double down on those dollars, there's a question as to whether this is good practice.

As I Mentioned: How do you know who paid for the development of the Promotional and Store Content? Or is Blizzard in your Opinion obligated to only develop the game you pay them for?

What if they have a small team for this stuff, where they Invested a bit of Money, into it to start it, and now it only creates stuff for the Store and Promotion material? And it is actually paid by the Store sales? Or do you think the Store sales should also go into the development of your game?

When you pay an active subscription, the buy-in is different from a one-time purchase. You are paying a monthly amount with the expectation of delivered content. You could try and double down on the claim that the subscription is only for access, but that would be horrifically disingenuous. There is, and always has been, the expectation for additional/future content to be delivered. When this money is being used for content that will then be gated to you, there is obviously going to be players who are not OK with that, and players, essentially, do pay for the right to both play the game and complain about it if they want.

Attempting to constantly reduce the situation by comparing it to dissimilar avenues of service, or simply accepting bad practice as a thing and then handwaving anything which could be against said practice, is not incredibly constructive.

Again, you just expect it. Afaik has Blizzard never said they will use any amount of the Subscription for game development. You just Expect it.
If you would actually think you pay the Subscription for the Game Development, you would also complain about the Price of the Expansion. Because you pay right now 13$ a month for them to Develop Shadowlands, and they dare to put that behind a paywall.

And I double down on it, you pay Blizzard to play the game. That is the Contract you signed with Blizzard. Thats not disingenuous nor anything.
What blizzard does with the Money is up to them. They probably use whatever remains after subtracting the running costs, for Development. But its really shortsighted to think they only use it on WoW.

If they were and they would follow your complaining, you would not get a WoW2, nor would you get any other games. Because where would the money come from?
Each game profites from each other. Because Blizzard earns Money, and uses this Money freely however they see fit, they can develop new Games, and are not concerned with tight budgets.

E.g. If the Revenue from WoW drops, they can supply that from another game, and vice versa. What you "Expect" and want them to do, would make them inflexible, and would make abandonment of games much more likely, we wouldnt have such a long support for Diablo III or StarCraft II for example, as I dont think they generate that much money after such a long time. While games like HearthStone and HotS probably generate way more Money than they cost in Development (In relation to WoW), so I can see WoW profiting from them.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Sure it does. You Pay Blizzard, and Blizzard grants you access to the game. And Blizzard uses the Money. But you have no influence in what Blizzard does with the Money.

It grants access to the game and is paid with the expectation that content will be developed. That content will be developed is a primary purpose of the subscription and has always been a primary purpose of subscriptions in games: for supporting continued development on the product. This is, and always has been, the dual purpose of live service (i.e.: subscription) models.

And they do. We call these Patches: Expansions

You're just being obtuse at this point. Expansions and patches have had clear delineation since Vanilla, though this was even contentious at the time.

That is simply because: Blizzard can do whatever the hell they want. Its neither Right nor Wrong, and if the players like it or not is completely Irrelvant.
Because Players:
A: Dont know what Blizzard does with the Money, or how much Money from whatever sources go into which project.
B: You have no Businsess in Knowing either.

Players have the right to comment on Blizzards actions. These weird arguments simply towing the line for the sake of it aren't productive.
> Blizzard does what it does because it does.
> Players don't have the right to know what they do because they don't.

As I Mentioned: How do you know who paid for the development of the Promotional and Store Content? Or is Blizzard in your Opinion obligated to only develop the game you pay them for?

What if they have a small team for this stuff, where they Invested a bit of Money, into it to start it, and now it only creates stuff for the Store and Promotion material? And it is actually paid by the Store sales? Or do you think the Store sales should also go into the development of your game?

What you're doing doesn't actually help your case. This would be developing a team, using money expected to be invested into WoW, or possibly new games, for something a good portion of the community considers anti-consumer behaviour. Saying "well, it grew from a small one over time and was developed" is sort of the problem that people have. Recontextualizing the problem to try and make it seem like a different problem is silly.

Again, you just expect it. Afaik has Blizzard never said they will use any amount of the Subscription for game development. You just Expect it.
If you would actually think you pay the Subscription for the Game Development, you would also complain about the Price of the Expansion. Because you pay right now 13$ a month for them to Develop Shadowlands, and they dare to put that behind a paywall.

The delineation between expansions and patches has existed for over 10 years.

And I double down on it, you pay Blizzard to play the game. That is the Contract you signed with Blizzard. Thats not disingenuous nor anything.
What blizzard does with the Money is up to them. They probably use whatever remains after subtracting the running costs, for Development. But its really shortsighted to think they only use it on WoW.

Then you simply do not have any concept of what the subscription model entails and should not be commenting on it. The subscription service has always been for both access and continued development. It's a well-defined method of game monetization in which games are provided in a service format, and Blizzard is largely accredited with being one of the first companies to popularize its usage to guarantee revenue streams in exchange for continually developing content.

If they were and they would follow your complaining, you would not get a WoW2, nor would you get any other games. Because where would the money come from?
Each game profites from each other. Because Blizzard earns Money, and uses this Money freely however they see fit, they can develop new Games, and are not concerned with tight budgets.

These are such incredibly bad faith arguments. There's a clear difference between growing a company and reinvesting money in ways that are anti-consumer.

[Baneto]

Whats the reason for being a Activision/Blizzard-apologist in all of this?

Why would you not be for them adding content to the actual game aquirable by gold/achievements instead of a cheap $$$ store.

And keep things like t-shirts action figures and other paraphernalia on the websites shop.

I dont think we're far away from having to buy the coolest looking gear on the store if this is the direction they're heading towards.

[baskev]

If you buy and / or use WoW tokens for Game time and / or Blizzard Balance - You should legally not be allowed to whine over the in-game store existing / having items added too it. You are just fueling the system you supposedly "Hate" - You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also: While on that topic - What is even the fuss about the game store about? I am a Mount Collector and I'm hardly fazed by there being mounts at the store. Comparing the WoW game store to so many other MMORPGS out there makes the WoW one seem like a kindergarden project; it's harmless. There is NO pay to win elements as no mount, transmog or battle pet will give you an in-game advantage. (Yeah I know Lil'Rags is a decent battle pet but he is nowhere near the best, nor does he break the system)

In addition to that; All of the items on the game store is TOTALLY obtainable via in-game activities. You get your gold, you turn it into a token and you convert that to currency. Like how is this missing people's head?

Seeing folks shout "70 DOLLARS / EUROS FOR A MOUNT / TRANSMOG?!" Is also just absurd, it's 70 $ / € for SIX MONTHS OF GAME TIME IN ADDITION TO (Insert whatever Blizz will include with the 6 month sub in the future)

But yeah, if you add fuel to the system you hate - Then screw you, your argument is invalid. If you use tokens; you should not whine in any way over whatever the heck Blizz adds to the game store (As long as it remains purely cosmetic and nothing stupid like "Pay not for a full set of the most recent raid gear" is added)

Yet while on that note. Ya'll know WoW can be played for free now after purchase yeah? Thanks to those tokens? Surely a lot of people is doing that. And Blizzard despite being under Activision's wing (Activision which clearly wants WoW to die so they can have the people working on it focus on things like Hearthstone and Overwatch where there is still money being made for some reason) They still got employees to pay, despite that they seem to go in + on the quarterly earnings calls we see: A lot of people seem to think that a in-game store is only justified if your company is going in minus or is barely breaking even. Are you folks just that ignorant? I guess there is a reason you are sitting here complaining about Brightwing being flayed for a transmog as opposed to taking it for what it is and rather unsubbing or moving on with your life.

Thanks. I'll see some of you in court since surely someone got offended to the point of feeling like I personally attacked them while standing firm on that if you buy and / or use WoW Tokens to any degree; You should shut the heck up about anything in-game store related.

Disagree if something stupid is done. But mostly agree with the first part.

And yes, if you look other paid or non paid mmo type games. WoW is nons store is small, non conseqeuntal etc to the game. Hell you can even pay it ( i think not sure) with blizzard balance. Something you can get with ingame gold.....so.....yeah. kinda silly.

And yes on the 70 dollars for a mount is to much, or colletors edition is to much. The mounts/transmogh are a gift to subs who stayed subbed. Not to all the angry people who play the game 1 month a year and then unsub and are angry about everything the game does.

Its just sad all of this.

Its hate to hate. I blame politics, parents and a those youtubers/twitchers who teach these kids/adultchilds that being rude, hatefull is a good thing.

[LanToaster]

It grants access to the game and is paid with the expectation that content will be developed. That content will be developed is a primary purpose of the subscription and has always been a primary purpose of subscriptions in games: for supporting continued development on the product. This is, and always has been, the dual purpose of live service (i.e.: subscription) models.

You are just repating yourself. Show me any posting made by Blizzard that they will use the Money generated by WoW Subscriptions, only for the development of WoW, and not additional Content sold elsewhere.

Otherwise it is just pure hope, and specualation on your part, and as I said: Shortsighted

You're just being obtuse at this point. Expansions and patches have had clear delineation since Vanilla, though this was even contentious at the time.

Then show me the delineation, the only difference between a regular Contentpatch inside an Expansion is the size and paywall.
So it doesnt change the fact that Expansions are nothing more than Glorified patches. Hell, thats even reflected in the Version.
V8.0 - World of Warcraft - Battle for Azeroth
V8.1 - World of Warcraft - Tides of Vengeance
V8.2 - World of Warcraft - Rise of Azshara
V8.3 - World of Warcraft - Visions of N'Zoth
V9.0 - World of Warcraft - Shadowlands

Players have the right to comment on Blizzards actions.

This is right, but that doesnt change the fact that the complaining players have no base to demand changes, or have any Rights, or blizzard does anything objectivly wrong.

These weird arguments simply towing the line for the sake of it aren't productive.

> Blizzard does what it does because it does.
> Players don't have the right to know what they do because they don't.

What can I say? I told you why Blizzard does things: Because they are a Company, and they want to make Money.
Every investment they do, is to make Money. If you think that is "Anti Consumer", then every Company out there is Anti Consumer. Especially those who do Promotions.

What you're doing doesn't actually help your case. This would be developing a team, using money expected to be invested into WoW, or possibly new games, for something a good portion of the community considers anti-consumer behaviour.

Sure it does, you just dont understand what I´m trying to say:
YOU HAVE NO IDEA, where the money for the creation of the store stuff comes from. You just blindly assume, and expect that the money you pay Blizzard each month goes directly and only into the game. You just blindly assume and expect blizzard to not use the Money it earns to create more Content to sell on different places. You blindly assume, and expect that the "winnings" from your payment directly go into the thing you pay the same money for, so you get more out of your money than you were yesterday.

Saying "well, it grew from a small one over time and was developed" is sort of the problem that people have. Recontextualizing the problem to try and make it seem like a different problem is silly.

I dont try to make it a "Different Problem", i´m saying you dont know where the Money you pay Blizzard goes, you have no contract with blizzard that states what they do with the Money. So, you just "Think" they do stuff with it.

The delineation between expansions and patches has existed for over 10 years.

So, what? Just because the Store is "fairly" new, makes it "Anti Consumer"? Elaborate what makes it Anti Consumer to charge people for Content.

Then you simply do not have any concept of what the subscription model entails and should not be commenting on it. The subscription service has always been for both access and continued development. It's a well-defined method of game monetization in which games are provided in a service format, and Blizzard is largely accredited with being one of the first companies to popularize its usage to guarantee revenue streams in exchange for continually developing content.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subscr...business_model

I dont see anything remotely in line with your claims. Read up on the Topic if you think others are wrong.
There is only two key points: "A subscription model may be beneficial for the software buyer if it forces the supplier to improve its product."
This is the "Expection" you have that the money flows directly into development. Blizzard needs to develop the game, in order to keep subscriptions. They are however not obligated to do so, as you are not obligated to keep your subscription active.

These are such incredibly bad faith arguments. There's a clear difference between growing a company and reinvesting money in ways that are anti-consumer.

No there is not. And the WoW Store doesnt even apply there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-consumerism

You cant tell me that the creation of the Store Content comes at the expense of anyone, if anything the Store would benefit everyone who plays the game. As it generates additional revenue, that probably flows back into the development of the game.
More Money = Greated Budget
Less Money = Lesser Budget

You had an Argument if the amount of Store Items would grow larger or as large as the actual stuff ingame.

Whats the reason for being a Activision/Blizzard-apologist in all of this?

Why would you not be for them adding content to the actual game aquirable by gold/achievements instead of a cheap $$$ store.

And keep things like t-shirts action figures and other paraphernalia on the websites shop.

I dont think we're far away from having to buy the coolest looking gear on the store if this is the direction they're heading towards.

Because some people have a brain, and know that if the Store wouldnt be there, the stuff on the store would probaly not exist anyway.

[Algorath]

I can only agree on this: neither you or anyone else gets to tell me what I can and can't complain about. Or generally tell me what to do. You can suggest it politely, and maybe I will consider your opinion. But don't hold your breath.

Cuz 'Murica!

[Baneto]

Because some people have a brain, and know that if the Store wouldnt be there, the stuff on the store would probaly not exist anyway.

You have a strong opinion, since you're writing essays to defend the in-game store, I'd give you that.

But the rest? Not so much, trying to act clever and portray yourself as "having a brain" for having an opinion just makes you look stupid.

[erifwodahs]

They have no idea how the budget of the gameplay team and the budget of the art team have literally nothing in common and do not take away from each other.
"Okay we're not going to balance this class for now cuz we have a new transmog set to make".

You don't seem to be too bright about that either. I won't go into hypotheticals that Blizz laid off developers to get an tmog shop artists some budget.They can take away from each other very easy. You have your yearly budget and if you don't want to explain why you went over that you dip into other departments budget which might mean you lay someone off and re-hire some time later when the times are better but it is absolutely possible and is not uncommon in very strict budget companies.

That being said they could have fixed some awful clipping issues with some haircuts/races OR made more customization options OR created a new mob model/updated pet model/updated spell visuals. Instead of that they put the paid set in.

[Accendor]

If you buy and / or use WoW tokens for Game time and / or Blizzard Balance - You should legally not be allowed to whine over the in-game store existing / having items added too it. You are just fueling the system you supposedly "Hate" - You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Also: While on that topic - What is even the fuss about the game store about? I am a Mount Collector and I'm hardly fazed by there being mounts at the store. Comparing the WoW game store to so many other MMORPGS out there makes the WoW one seem like a kindergarden project; it's harmless. There is NO pay to win elements as no mount, transmog or battle pet will give you an in-game advantage. (Yeah I know Lil'Rags is a decent battle pet but he is nowhere near the best, nor does he break the system)

In addition to that; All of the items on the game store is TOTALLY obtainable via in-game activities. You get your gold, you turn it into a token and you convert that to currency. Like how is this missing people's head?

Seeing folks shout "70 DOLLARS / EUROS FOR A MOUNT / TRANSMOG?!" Is also just absurd, it's 70 $ / € for SIX MONTHS OF GAME TIME IN ADDITION TO (Insert whatever Blizz will include with the 6 month sub in the future)

But yeah, if you add fuel to the system you hate - Then screw you, your argument is invalid. If you use tokens; you should not whine in any way over whatever the heck Blizz adds to the game store (As long as it remains purely cosmetic and nothing stupid like "Pay not for a full set of the most recent raid gear" is added)

Yet while on that note. Ya'll know WoW can be played for free now after purchase yeah? Thanks to those tokens? Surely a lot of people is doing that. And Blizzard despite being under Activision's wing (Activision which clearly wants WoW to die so they can have the people working on it focus on things like Hearthstone and Overwatch where there is still money being made for some reason) They still got employees to pay, despite that they seem to go in + on the quarterly earnings calls we see: A lot of people seem to think that a in-game store is only justified if your company is going in minus or is barely breaking even. Are you folks just that ignorant? I guess there is a reason you are sitting here complaining about Brightwing being flayed for a transmog as opposed to taking it for what it is and rather unsubbing or moving on with your life.

Thanks. I'll see some of you in court since surely someone got offended to the point of feeling like I personally attacked them while standing firm on that if you buy and / or use WoW Tokens to any degree; You should shut the heck up about anything in-game store related.

I stopped reading after your first paragraph.
Yes, you are right about that, but as with everything it is ok to change your mind if you get confronted with new facts.
Just... When you change your mind, act accordingly.

That being said, fuck the token and the store and most of all this transmog set.

[pokies]

in modern western world, one can whine about almost anything, frankly.

Unfortunately true ...

[Yorimar]

Ok.

Option 1: Level up. Get a guild. No decent guild accepts you because you have no gear or experience. You start from a bottom tier guild. You progress, you wipe, you endure hardships. After months of effort you clear the current raid on mythic. Mount drops. You don't get it.

Option 2: Buy a level boost. Buy a billion coins using real money. Use them to buy mythic boosts until you are decked out in crazy gear. Also buy the mount because why not.

No pay to win elements.

this. sponsored by WoW Token

[LanToaster]

You have a strong opinion, since you're writing essays to defend the in-game store, I'd give you that.

But the rest? Not so much, trying to act clever and portray yourself as "having a brain" for having an opinion just makes you look stupid.

So, you are thinking if the store would not exist everything in the store would be in the base game? Because thats what the People i´m arguing with think/want. And thats what I´m refering to.

You don't seem to be too bright about that either.

I never claimed to know how Blizzard spends their money. I said:
Probably the revenue generated by Blizzard goes into the big Blizzard Pot, and then distributed to the Budgets of the games/projects/departments. As that is afaik the common thing that happens at companies.

I won't go into hypotheticals that Blizz laid off developers to get an tmog shop artists some budget.

*Laugh* That thought alone is priceless.

They can take away from each other very easy. You have your yearly budget and if you don't want to explain why you went over that you dip into other departments budget which might mean you lay someone off and re-hire some time later when the times are better but it is absolutely possible and is not uncommon in very strict budget companies.

Sure, thats a sane way to look at it. But that also tells you that if Blizzard sells some Assets in the Store as Transmogs/Mounts it will in return make the overall revenue of WoW larger, which in return most likely increases the Budget of the WoW department.

Same goes with the 6 Month Promotion, while it overall generates less money than when everyone only has 1Month Subs. It generates a larger "Guranteed" revenue.
That maens the budget can again be higher with less risks.

That being said they could have fixed some awful clipping issues with some haircuts/races OR made more customization options OR created a new mob model/updated pet model/updated spell visuals. Instead of that they put the paid set in.

Sure, they could do alot of things. But there is only a certain amount of capacity, and I would think some higher ups above the Artists need to think about the Financial Budgets and how to keep them where they are and/or increase them. While managing the Capacity Budgets.

Basically, I assume the revenue generated by the Store is (at least thats what I would do) calculated to make the Budged for the entire team Larger, without taking to much away. That means they (Ass Pulled Numbers) 10% of their Capacity, to ensure they can use 20% more Capacity.

[Baneto]

So, you are thinking if the store would not exist everything in the store would be in the base game? Because thats what the People i´m arguing with think/want. And thats what I´m refering to.

I'll quote myself if you missed what I wrote:

Keep the store for the website for things like tshirts mugs and figurines.

Let the creative artists put the mounts and transmogs in the game available for gold of achievements instead.

[Echeyakee]

Cuz 'Murica!

Not even close. 'Cuz free will.

[LanToaster]

I'll quote myself if you missed what I wrote:

Yea, and I say if they would not sell additional Mounts and Transmogs in the Store and generate additional revenue, some of these Artists wouldnt even have a job, because of a smaller Budget.
Its short sighted to think they would do the same stuff/amount of stuff, if they would earn less money.

[Baneto]

Yea, and I say if they would not sell additional Mounts and Transmogs in the Store and generate additional revenue, some of these Artists wouldnt even have a job, because of a smaller Budget.
Its short sighted to think they would do the same stuff/amount of stuff, if they would earn less money.

And I disagree with that, Blizzard as a company doesnt have to push in-game shops to pay their employees salaries.