The horde council is pathetic.

[hulkgor]

What a silly list, especially since most are villains and already -dead-.

good effort making it buddy. /s

[Tarba]

Our current cast of leading characters is truly pathetic. They are underdeveloped, underused, underpowered and lack any sorts of investment that could draw a horde player emotionally to them. To fix these issues it is needed that the horde council gets replaced with characters that could actually stand off against the big alliance super heroes.

Orcs - kill Thrall. Bring back AU Grommash
Trolls - Rastakhan and Jindo the Breaker
Tauren - Sark Ragetotem
Blood elves - kael’thas Sunstrider
Nightborne - Grand magistrix Elisande
Undead - sylvanas can come back.

Then the horde would be fixed.

Non bland characters can only be loot box in wow. Look at all the hard work they put into whitewashing Illidan during legion. They even used a Naaru to rape him so they could lift their guilt of not making him a loot box again.
Also Rastakhan was a retard.
Also bis, their is only Anduin. Something else than a random prince from a child book is a no go. What truly matters is the length of the ears and the color of Anduin and then you have your faction leader.

[[KJ]]

haha yea I am with you. The horde does feel a bit pink and fluffy right now.

[Aresk]

Orcs - They really need more orc cast now. Eitrigg could work instead of Thrall, I guess. Or maybe Drek'thar. I'd say Nazgrim if he weren't a horseman.
Trolls - Rokhan still makes the most sense to me. The appointee should be Darkspear, at the very least.
Tauren - I think Baine's fine there. If he really needs replaced, maybe Hamuul, though I don't see him wanting to lead. Aponi would be my third pick.
Blood Elves - Lor'themar seems fine to me. Liadrin or Rommath if not him.
Nightborne - Thalyssra seems the only choice here. Even Occuleth or Valtrois wouldn't make sense to me.
Undead - Faranell or Lilian Voss make the most sense to me. If you really want to shake things up, Detheroc or Balnazaar.

[Die]

Do a storyline involving Drek'thar vs Atomik. Both were horde faction leaders in battlegrounds. Maybe they spar with each other and, in the end, both emerge as leaders of their respective races. Drek leads the Orcs and Atomik leads the Tauren. Atomik can even periodically summon Kronus who can walk around and buff people or something.

[Nargrom]

We've had the Horde be run by incompetent edgelords and nihilistic psychopaths for the better part of a decade now, with a brief respite where Vol'jin didn't do anything because the developers wanted to do more orc stuff instead. Can we give the unrelenting edge a break for an expansion or two? This shit is starting to come off like Game of Thrones fanfiction at this point.

This Horde Council tho is mostly a band of bitches. With the exception of Talanji, Rokhan, Ji Firepaw(which was insignificant anyway) and the orc that leads the mag'har the rest are pathetic. Firstly we have Thrall, the guy is clearly depressed his whole storyline indicated that he couldnt be arsed to leave his home and now he is in orgrimmar representing the orcs. The orcs are a race of survivors that did what they had to do in order to survive in the new world, Thrall was a part of that mindset up until that mak'gora with Garrosh. Then everything went to shit. Bring Rexxar in even temporarely until Thrall grows his balls back in Shadowlands( At least i hope he does).

Then Baine...In all honesty i think his father would be ashamed, i understand the need for peace and saving lives but the guy took it to a new level to the point he resides inside Stormwind Keep apparently with his new found love Maila. He is unable to lead anything, for the whole expa of BfA i felt like the taurens where one step away from mass genocide with the decisions their chieftain was making. Even when Vol'jin was working on his rebelion i didnt feel this, like at any moment the trolls would be fucked( and they were cause garrosh actually attacked the Echo Isles). How is he fit to lead his people and be part of the Horde is beyond me. You could argue that the preservetion of life is a higher purpose that Baine is working towards, but that the reason the horde was created as well, to preserve life, the different factions that are part of the horde as survivors in their own right and together they stand a better chance.

The undead, well i dunno about them, Calia has potential if also grows some balls and realises she is now a different species from the humans of the alliance, and also realises that the forsaken had a way of life before she discovered them. I hope this way of life is preserved.

Lastly the elves, the blood elves are literal badass with the shit the have been through but lor'themar is just too political. Every decision is made when in the dilemma he faces there only one viable option left, or when he is pushed to a corner has to enter a fight or flight mode( see nazatar arc). I believe the elves of the horde are currently one of the strongest factions we have and yet with his decisions are always last to the party. Thallusra and her nightborne apparently now just follow around Lor'themar, at least if she gonna fuck him, might as well knock some sense into him as well, since she has more balls than him( she was actually able to lead a rebellion).

[Accendor]

Ignoring the fact that a few of these are actually dead, this is a horrible idea. These are truly evil characters, and it’d just make the Horde the bad guys. Again.

The Horde still are the bad guys. The same people as before are in charge. After BfA its pretty clear that the horde is planned to be forever the bad guys.

[Thage]

This Horde Council tho is mostly a band of bitches. With the exception of Talanji, Rokhan, Ji Firepaw(which was insignificant anyway) and the orc that leads the mag'har the rest are pathetic. Firstly we have Thrall, the guy is clearly depressed his whole storyline indicated that he couldnt be arsed to leave his home and now he is in orgrimmar representing the orcs. The orcs are a race of survivors that did what they had to do in order to survive in the new world, Thrall was a part of that mindset up until that mak'gora with Garrosh. Then everything went to shit. Bring Rexxar in even temporarely until Thrall grows his balls back in Shadowlands( At least i hope he does).

Thrall's got every right to doubt himself when his decisions directly led to the Horde being taken over by a power-maddened tyrant, since he put Garrosh in the role against even Garrosh's own objections--objections that weren't made out of polite humility because Garrosh didn't do polite humility. He legitimately knew he wasn't ready for the job, and Thrall dumped it in his lap and fucked off at the precise moment everything went to shit. Thrall's got a lot of bad decisions weighing on him, but in Shadows Rising he still ends up constantly stepping up to the plate because everyone else is distracted with their own thing (and in one situation, Ji kinda forces his hand because Ji kept pressuring him to hurry the fuck up and make a decision).

Then Baine...In all honesty i think his father would be ashamed, i understand the need for peace and saving lives but the guy took it to a new level to the point he resides inside Stormwind Keep apparently with his new found love Maila. He is unable to lead anything, for the whole expa of BfA i felt like the taurens where one step away from mass genocide with the decisions their chieftain was making. Even when Vol'jin was working on his rebelion i didnt feel this, like at any moment the trolls would be fucked( and they were cause garrosh actually attacked the Echo Isles). How is he fit to lead his people and be part of the Horde is beyond me. You could argue that the preservetion of life is a higher purpose that Baine is working towards, but that the reason the horde was created as well, to preserve life, the different factions that are part of the horde as survivors in their own right and together they stand a better chance.

Baine's biggest problem is a problem the tauren have had for what's now the slim majority of WoW's lifespan: they feel like the odd men out in the post-Garrosh Horde alongside the blood elves and pandaren, the other two moderates in the faction with personal and political ties across the board. Back in Thrall's Horde, the tauren were a perfect fit as spiritual leaders and brothers in arms; under Garrosh and later Sylvanas, the tauren have really only served a narrative purpose in telling the Warchief they're being a gaping dickhole who's fracturing the Horde and betraying the ideals Thrall reformed it under. Baine is a microcosm of this, in that it feels like the writers want to write the tauren as defecting but can't due to the constraints of the ingame faction system and not wanting to forcibly change existing characters' faction (something that could be solved entirely by removing the faction barrrier for PvE, but I digress).

The undead, well i dunno about them, Calia has potential if also grows some balls and realises she is now a different species from the humans of the alliance, and also realises that the forsaken had a way of life before she discovered them. I hope this way of life is preserved.

Calia has no interest in leading the Forsaken. She's said this time and again. She isn't even their official representative, Lillian is, and Calia's just there as Lillian's plus-one. Lillian, for her part, is like Thrall in that she didn't want the job, but stepped up because someone needed to and there was a whole lot of nobody stepping up going on.

Lastly the elves, the blood elves are literal badass with the shit the have been through but lor'themar is just too political. Every decision is made when in the dilemma he faces there only one viable option left, or when he is pushed to a corner has to enter a fight or flight mode( see nazatar arc). I believe the elves of the horde are currently one of the strongest factions we have and yet with his decisions are always last to the party. Thallusra and her nightborne apparently now just follow around Lor'themar, at least if she gonna fuck him, might as well knock some sense into him as well, since she has more balls than him( she was actually able to lead a rebellion).

Lor'themar has always had one priority and one priority only: do what's best for the blood elves. This involves a lot of politicking and maneuvering, especially under Garrosh and Sylvanas, so that he could fly under the radar while the louder dissidents like Baine and Vol'jin drew the Warchief's ire. That's not him being a pussy or whatever, that's just how elves operate on a cultural level. High society in Quel'Thalas is an endless chess game of one-upmanship without making it obvious it's an endless chess game of one-upmanship.

So yes, this often leads to him weighing his options when the Horde fractures. At least once this has led to him considering a defection prior to Jaina scuttling talks, and he also briefly entertained the notion of a bid for Warchief himself. Even after being thrown to the wolves in Nazjatar, it was the impact on his people that lay foremost on his mind. I'd argue that makes him smart, especially since being so far from the rest of the Horde meant that he could afford the time to consider his options, as any reprisals would have to cross the ocean which would give him time to prepare.

As far as the Nightborne, they've been removed from global politics since the Sundering, and the blood elves were the only ones really hustling to make friends. It makes sense Thalyssra would be taking her cues from Lor'themar as the resident elves who've been active in Horde politics for a while now; I expect her to be more confident in breaking with him where the situation calls for it as she gets a better feel for the geopolitical situation outside Suramar.

[Nargrom]

Thrall's got every right to doubt himself when his decisions directly led to the Horde being taken over by a power-maddened tyrant, since he put Garrosh in the role against even Garrosh's own objections--objections that weren't made out of polite humility because Garrosh didn't do polite humility. He legitimately knew he wasn't ready for the job, and Thrall dumped it in his lap and fucked off at the precise moment everything went to shit. Thrall's got a lot of bad decisions weighing on him, but in Shadows Rising he still ends up constantly stepping up to the plate because everyone else is distracted with their own thing (and in one situation, Ji kinda forces his hand because Ji kept pressuring him to hurry the fuck up and make a decision).

Baine's biggest problem is a problem the tauren have had for what's now the slim majority of WoW's lifespan: they feel like the odd men out in the post-Garrosh Horde alongside the blood elves and pandaren, the other two moderates in the faction with personal and political ties across the board. Back in Thrall's Horde, the tauren were a perfect fit as spiritual leaders and brothers in arms; under Garrosh and later Sylvanas, the tauren have really only served a narrative purpose in telling the Warchief they're being a gaping dickhole who's fracturing the Horde and betraying the ideals Thrall reformed it under. Baine is a microcosm of this, in that it feels like the writers want to write the tauren as defecting but can't due to the constraints of the ingame faction system and not wanting to forcibly change existing characters' faction (something that could be solved entirely by removing the faction barrrier for PvE, but I digress).

Im not bothered by the fact that the decision's he made were bad or hard, in the past he had to make hard decision but a factor was always the integrity of the Horde in BfA both Thrall and Baine threw that out of the window, to the point that i really dont see how the Horde even exists atm, we are protectorate of the Alliance. If Anduin says jump we jump now. And we have carrot and stick Jaina that does whatever the fuck she wants with us. There is not a single leader stepping up and saying we will do this BUT... in a way that Horde has some self respect, we just node at this point. Regarding Baine i dont really see it like this, the same way trolls fit in so do the tauren, Trolls and Tauren are 2 of the founding pillars of the Horde and should the strongest advocates in preserving its integrity, now more than ever before. Vol'jin did it right in siege of orgrimmar, when varyan told them we will keep an eye of you, he said sure, but i wont be ur bitch. Baine didnt show any self respect when dealing with Jaina or Anduin.

Calia has no interest in leading the Forsaken. She's said this time and again. She isn't even their official representative, Lillian is, and Calia's just there as Lillian's plus-one. Lillian, for her part, is like Thrall in that she didn't want the job, but stepped up because someone needed to and there was a whole lot of nobody stepping up going on.

Lor'themar has always had one priority and one priority only: do what's best for the blood elves. This involves a lot of politicking and maneuvering, especially under Garrosh and Sylvanas, so that he could fly under the radar while the louder dissidents like Baine and Vol'jin drew the Warchief's ire. That's not him being a pussy or whatever, that's just how elves operate on a cultural level. High society in Quel'Thalas is an endless chess game of one-upmanship without making it obvious it's an endless chess game of one-upmanship.

So yes, this often leads to him weighing his options when the Horde fractures. At least once this has led to him considering a defection prior to Jaina scuttling talks, and he also briefly entertained the notion of a bid for Warchief himself. Even after being thrown to the wolves in Nazjatar, it was the impact on his people that lay foremost on his mind. I'd argue that makes him smart, especially since being so far from the rest of the Horde meant that he could afford the time to consider his options, as any reprisals would have to cross the ocean which would give him time to prepare.

As far as the Nightborne, they've been removed from global politics since the Sundering, and the blood elves were the only ones really hustling to make friends. It makes sense Thalyssra would be taking her cues from Lor'themar as the resident elves who've been active in Horde politics for a while now; I expect her to be more confident in breaking with him where the situation calls for it as she gets a better feel for the geopolitical situation outside Suramar.

I agree with ur Pov on the Undead and the elves

[Auberdeen]

Our current cast of leading characters is truly pathetic. They are underdeveloped, underused, underpowered and lack any sorts of investment that could draw a horde player emotionally to them. To fix these issues it is needed that the horde council gets replaced with characters that could actually stand off against the big alliance super heroes.

Orcs - kill Thrall. Bring back AU Grommash
a warmongering fool who would be more harm then good, and no sense of diplomacy? terrible idea.
Trolls - Rastakhan and Jindo the Breaker
archaeic way of thinking and too brash and bold to get out of his own way? he's the reason the empire almost fell. not going to work.
Tauren - Sark Ragetotem
most random tauren selection ever. nothing of value about him is known.
Blood elves - kael’thas Sunstrider
clearly joking right? "your arrogance will be your undoing"
Nightborne - Grand magistrix Elisande
you mean a monarch who would rather abolish a rebellion then seek peace and understanding? horrible idea.
Undead - sylvanas can come back.
lol

Then the horde would be fixed.

strength in battle does not equal power in leadership. back to the drawing board mate

[Gurahk]

Agree with the title, heavily disagree with whatever else you wrote.

[Zuben]

The current council feels like the Horde had its balls cut off. We don't have to be outright villains all the time, but the faction still yearns for a strong leader figure to rally behind, it's always been our way. We certainly don't have to appease the night elves like Thrall seems set out to do; let's remember the general troops were excited to march on them during War of Thorns.

What the OP suggested in the current council's place was awful lore-wise, but agreeable thematically. Thrall and Baine just feel awful and the rest feel like they'll always follow their lead after giving some symbolic lip-service to suggest a weak illusion of independence.

[blankfaced]

Everyone keeps mentioning balls like they're strong and fierce, as if they aren't the weakest part of the male human body. You so much as blow a cold breeze their way and they shrivel up and hide.

[Daronokk]

Everyone keeps mentioning balls like they're strong and fierce, as if they aren't the weakest part of the male human body. You so much as blow a cold breeze their way and they shrivel up and hide.

It's not to be taken literally. Balls do produce testosteron though, which fuels masculine behaviour like aggression, strength, bravery, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Horde Council are a bunch of peace loving hippie pussies. It's the Red Alliance except the actual Alliance has more balls.

[Talon8669]

Ignoring the fact that a few of these are actually dead, this is a horrible idea. These are truly evil characters, and it’d just make the Horde the bad guys. Again.

Sounds good to me. I am ready for another alliance genocide anyways

[Sagenod]

Our current cast of leading characters is truly pathetic. They are underdeveloped, underused, underpowered and lack any sorts of investment that could draw a horde player emotionally to them. To fix these issues it is needed that the horde council gets replaced with characters that could actually stand off against the big alliance super heroes.

Orcs - kill Thrall. Bring back AU Grommash
Trolls - Rastakhan and Jindo the Breaker
Tauren - Sark Ragetotem
Blood elves - kael’thas Sunstrider
Nightborne - Grand magistrix Elisande
Undead - sylvanas can come back.

Then the horde would be fixed.

- Both Groms are dead and Thrall is more level headed than he was, Fell-corruption or not. Thrall is a good leader when he has the time to be one but as the new Earth-Warder (the job Neltharion had), his concern is Azeroth as a whole. Thus even if he were warchief, he would still delegate most of his responsibilities to someone less pre-occupied. Is Eitrigg around or stuck with the Valarjar? He would be an excellent warchief.

- Rastakhan would never have been accepted by the Darkspear considering he was their enemy until BFA and Jindo followed Hakkar so... Not even sure where you're coming from with this one.

- What's wrong with Baine? He's not a mamby pamby for desiring peace between two warring factions.

- Kael makes the most sense out of this list, if he is capable of being resurrected following his repentance in Revendreth, or at the very least able to channel his consciousness into Azeroth.

- I could see Elisande for the same reason as Kael. She saw the error of her ways in death, we don't know where exactly she is (do we?) only that she was a ghost right after we killed her. Perhaps through some chronomancy stuff she could remain tethered to reality and serve the Nightborne again. A complementing and perhaps at times foiling force to Thalyssra's rule, which perhaps is and could be flawed in the future.

- You're trolling aren't you?

[Maljinwo]

- Both Groms are dead and Thrall is more level headed than he was, Fell-corruption or not. Thrall is a good leader when he has the time to be one but as the new Earth-Warder (the job Neltharion had), his concern is Azeroth as a whole. Thus even if he were warchief, he would still delegate most of his responsibilities to someone less pre-occupied. Is Eitrigg around or stuck with the Valarjar? He would be an excellent warchief.

While Eitrigg is a good choice, he was laughed at when he was captured during the loyalist scenario. They even threw fruit at him. It doesn't seem that he holds much respect among some members of the Horde

- Rastakhan would never have been accepted by the Darkspear considering he was their enemy until BFA and Jindo followed Hakkar so... Not even sure where you're coming from with this one.

Rastakhan never attacked the Darkspear as the conflict against the Zandalari was Zul's doing. Rokhan calls Zul a snake during the Stormwind extraction, without any comment against Rastakhan.
Vol'jin does mention Rastakhan once during Cataclysm, but it was unknown at the time who was leading the Zandalari forces

[Thage]

The current council feels like the Horde had its balls cut off. We don't have to be outright villains all the time, but the faction still yearns for a strong leader figure to rally behind, it's always been our way. We certainly don't have to appease the night elves like Thrall seems set out to do; let's remember the general troops were excited to march on them during War of Thorns.

Sure, the general troops were down for the War of Thorns, partly because Sylvanas was good at propagandizing the Alliance's attack on the goblin excavation in Silithus and partly because they were riding high on the win against the Burning Legion, but many accounts ingame I've been able to find see much of the Horde agreeing that incinerating Teldrassil was maybe a really bad idea.

Thrall's current policy of trying to smooth things over with the night elves is one part smart politics and one part how things work when you lose the war--the Horde and Alliance both are in a bad way after the total meat grinder of a war Sylvanas just got everyone involved in. Not only is it standard procedure to find some way to give reparations to your victims when you lose the war, getting back to at least a cold-but-respectful relationship with the night elves is a good plan considering Tyrande smoked an entire batallion with one Moonfire spam.

Not exactly a situation you want to stay antagonistic when they live at your back door while your forces are depleted and you're trying to reorganize your government into something less autocratic, given the autocracy has been a failure prone to corruption (even Thrall fell prey to this as he became complacent in forcing the orcs to struggle, either not understanding or willfully ignoring the sentiments this would engender among the orcs) with two out of five Warchiefs not being power-mad lunatics or nihilistic despots (and of them, one is the aforementioned Thrall and the other was manipulated at death's door to enable the nihilistic despot).

What the OP suggested in the current council's place was awful lore-wise, but agreeable thematically. Thrall and Baine just feel awful and the rest feel like they'll always follow their lead after giving some symbolic lip-service to suggest a weak illusion of independence.

Talanji had no intention of playing nice until Sylvanas did what she does best and unintentionally inspired her enemies to strengthen their bonds. Even then, she and Geya'rah seem poised to remain antagonistic forces within the council pushing for war with the Alliance, Talanji because she still has beef with Jaina and Geya'rah because she associates the draenei with the Lightbound. Lor'themar remains a wild card depending on what course of action would give the blood elves the best step forward (or would at least earn them the least blowback), Thalyssra takes her cues from Lor'themar due to unfamiliarity with the geopolitical situation outside Suramar, and Ji seems to be the one pushing Thrall to commit to something for a change and stop wallowing in self-pity. Lillian seems the most apathetic of the bunch, though Rokhan definitely takes his cues from Thrall and Baine. Kiro doesn't seem like he has too many strong opinions on things politically; like Ji he's probably more of the mind to push people into deciding something rather than just dither about indecisively.

That everyone is generally in agreement now doesn't mean it's going to stay that way, especially since now is a situation of a whole lot of things going wrong and the Horde already being stretched way too thin. Once the Horde's back on its feet I expect conflicting agendas to play a big role in the Horde's story development, especially now that there's no autocrat to knuckle everyone into toeing the 'company line' as it were.

[VinceVega]

The problem with lore characters in wow is quite simple tbh... there are no new generations. The games are YEARS old. The only offspring of anyone is Anduin and he has been there since vanilla.
So the characters have to come out of nothing. Sometimes it works. But how do you find an orc suddenly who can lead the horde when there have been 0 before. Every famous orc is really old by now.
Blizzard always struggles with new characters. I can only think of a handful who will maybe stick.

Zekan: Never was planed as a big character but got pushed by us.
Talanji: Meh. Tbh i don't care to much about her. But a good start
Wrathion: They have plans with him, but we still have absolutly no idea what he is doing.
Flynn Fairwind: Great character. Loved him in the book. Maybe he will get more spotlight. But people are bitching because he is bi. So blizz will probably burry him.
Yrel: LOVED her as a character. Got completly butchered with the Magahr introduction. But maybe we will see her again but i doubt it.
Geya'rah: Hard maybe... doesn't get to much to do tbh other than being a martial badass.

Nearly every other character is a one-off thing. Only in that expansion important. The have brought back some characters from WC3 etc.
But again. OLD characters.
Arathor is a child of other characters but he doesn't have anything to do.

Every major character in wow will die of old ages without children and no proteges to take over the empty lore void they themselves created or we will have a World of Seniors in the future.

So... the current council is the best they can do

[Sagenod]

While Eitrigg is a good choice, he was laughed at when he was captured during the loyalist scenario. They even threw fruit at him. It doesn't seem that he holds much respect among some members of the Horde



Rastakhan never attacked the Darkspear as the conflict against the Zandalari was Zul's doing. Rokhan calls Zul a snake during the Stormwind extraction, without any comment against Rastakhan.
Vol'jin does mention Rastakhan once during Cataclysm, but it was unknown at the time who was leading the Zandalari forces

Does a large population of Orcs view Eitrigg in this manner, especially after Sylvanas has been ousted? Not that them disrespecting him in such a manner ever made sense to begin with. He has been around since day one and never faltered in his loyalty to Thrall's Horde, unlike Nazgrim and the Kor'kron who tolerated Garrosh's tyranny, or the ones who stayed loyal to Sylvanas despite Varok and Thrall both rising against her. Any Orcs who don't understand this post-BFA are morons.

Regarding Rastakhan and Zul, how much of a difference do you think that makes to the Darkspear? The Zandalari united nearly all the rest of Azeroth's trolls against the Horde in a failed power grab. At the very least many Darkspear would hold disdain for Rastakhan for what he was seemingly responsible for. It would take time for them to accept his or his daughter's leadership.

- - - Updated - - -

Flynn Fairwind: Great character. Loved him in the book. Maybe he will get more spotlight. But people are bitching because he is bi. So blizz will probably burry him.

Why do people have an issue with his sexuality, out of curiosity? It's not like the dude has been shoehorned into anything major and he is obviously going to further Shaw's story, who has lacked depth in the past. I truly can't think of any other reason people would have an issue with him other than bigotry.