Do people genuinely think the Horde is evil?

[socialmaker]

Yes they are evil. Except the tauren or newly added panda/vulperas every horde race is evil especially muh fel addiction orcs.

[keldarepewpew]

Its pretty simple. People who hate horde and only play Alliance support Biden.

What a dumb statement.

- - - Updated - - -

The undeads were mindcontrolled by Ner'zhul. They yell "for Ner'zhul", not "for Arthas". Arthas is just a champion of Ner'zhul.




It's the lore. The Draenei were genocided by the Orc tribes regrouped in the organization called "the Horde".
Again there's no evidence that the humans genocided the trolls, Garithos didn't kill a single elf (he planned on executing "only" the group of Kael) and Arthas was an enemy of the Alliance at that point.
In fact it's thanks to the Scourge that the Horde was able to claim Lordaeron.

What about the alliance mass murdering surrendered swimming orcs in the MOP intro, leading to the sha spawning cause the act was so atrocious? Any reason why conveniently didn't reply to that example?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

the only successful genocide in azeroth history is done by.... humans and high elves, the horde only attempt (which done by old horde, a different faction from playable horde btw) was against humans of stormwind, who are very well alive and active and even playable, Trolls on other hands are a fraction of faction, like how belfs are leftovers of successful genocide by Scourge against High Elves
As for torture camps, alliance still win by miles in the infamous camps they horded the orcs in it after wc2, which btw I consider better act than flat out slaughter them, but u seems to ignore that they were still torture camps.. yeah better than flat out kill but they weren't ponies and rainbows either

You must know this is a bunch of nonsense right? There are literally the same orcs from the WC1-2 horde in the current playable horde while the humans who took part in doing any major damage to the trolls are long dead and most of the high elfs are horde now with even zul’Jin pointing that out.

If you want to count the trolls the horde has them at there feet as well as, the goats on Draenor, the humans of stormwind and the night elfs.

The alliance then has what? Helping the high elfs with the trolls one cow tribe and nothing else? There was no major movie against the undead or even the orcs outside of just general warfare and the worse that happens to the blood elfs was a mass arrest with some blood shed.

[CTiranno]

Yea because most of them were dead. Lordaeron gone just a splinter group lead by a jerk slaughted by the banshee queen.

dalaran destroyed by Archimond and continued being slaughtered by the forsaken even in classic.
gilneas walled themselves of because they didn't want a internetment camp full with bloodthirsty mongrels at their doorstep
Kul tiras left because of jaina.
Quel thalas went horde
Strom all but destroyed during second war,
And stormwind had a civil war followed by a dragon infestation manipulating the nobles,

So how are they suposed to condemn it seeing as the alliance of lordearon fell apart post arthas,

IMHO why alliance players don't start in theramore in vanilla is beyond me. Seeing as the alliance what was left of it ended up on kalimdor in WC3

The deaths of those responsible don't matter. You can still condemn the actions of a dead man, just like Thrall's Horde condemned the actions of the old Horde.
On his part, the Alliance never condemned the actions of Garithos against the BE, never tried to put Genn on trials for abandoning his own allies during the Scourge invasion (or his attack against the Horde fleet at Stormheim). Hell, at least they should consider Terenas responsible for the fall of Lordaeron considering he didn't even try to arrest his son for the slaughter of Stratholme before his departure for Northtrend or after his return.

About the part of the Alliance starting in Theramore, I'm with you. After wc3 and The Frozen Throne I thought the Alliance was basically composed of almost extinct races at that point all gathered at Theramore.

[eurojust]

What a dumb statement.

- - - Updated - - -



What about the alliance mass murdering surrendered swimming orcs in the MOP intro, leading to the sha spawning cause the act was so atrocious? Any reason why conveniently didn't reply to that example?

Please show me where the post mentioned those orcs swimmers and don't be condescending.

- - - Updated - - -

The deaths of those responsible don't matter. You can still condemn the actions of a dead man, just like Thrall's Horde condemned the actions of the old Horde.
On his part, the Alliance never condemned the actions of Garithos against the BE, never tried to put Genn on trials for abandoning his own allies during the Scourge invasion (or his attack against the Horde fleet at Stormheim). Hell, at least they should consider Terenas responsible for the fall of Lordaeron considering he didn't even try to arrest his son for the slaughter of Stratholme before his departure for Northtrend or after his return.

About the part of the Alliance starting in Theramore, I'm with you. After wc3 and The Frozen Throne I thought the Alliance was basically composed of almost extinct races at that point all gathered at Theramore.

Was the Alliance even aware of the actions of Garithos? We are talking about the remnant of the Alliance which was wiped out at the end of wc3. The WoW alliance didn't even exist back then. Thrall never truly condemned the actions of the old Horde since he worships the same Horde and its warchiefs like Orgrim.

[bowlink]

What a dumb statement.

- - - Updated - - -



What about the alliance mass murdering surrendered swimming orcs in the MOP intro, leading to the sha spawning cause the act was so atrocious? Any reason why conveniently didn't reply to that example?

Isolated incident rell got outranked and overruled by sky admiral rogers when he calked bullshit. and its no secret that she hates the horde, shes from southshore, which 1: was the battleground of warcraft 2 and 2: it got blighted by old edge lady herself. She also the one responsible for stormheim. And actually wanted to use the divine bell on the horde, where she got overruled by king varian himself.

Were not saying alliance doesn't do bad stuff, they do. What were saying when they do they are either:
A: responding to the horde in kind
B: trying to keep colatoral damage to a minimum
Or C: its a single person or small group acting on their own accord.

Horde on the other hand always try do as mutch colatoral damage as they can. Which exception of pandaren,vulpera or tauren and maby the nightborne basicly anything with fur. The rest pretty doesn't care about an extra skull here or there

[Zalraki]

Well now... let's see

Use of biologic weapons on towns and cities - check
Burning a civilian population - check
Terrorist bombing of a town - check
Death and assassination squads - check
Large scale deforestation - check
Aggressive conquest - check


All this actively and passively supported by the horde races so yeah, evil to the core and so are those playing horde characters

[mickybrighteyes]

Was the Alliance even aware of the actions of Garithos? We are talking about the remnant of the Alliance which was wiped out at the end of wc3. The WoW alliance didn't even exist back then.

You say this.... and then immediately argue this:

Thrall never truly condemned the actions of the old Horde since he worships the same Horde and its warchiefs like Orgrim.

The alliance of lordearon and the alliance of stormwind have more in common with each other than Thrall's Horde has with Black Hand's, Ogrim's, Or whatever horde you want to say was active in a given storyline.

Also, for the record. Garithos' actions were known to Dalaran and he had reinforcements from Ironforge somehow informed of his, and by extentions, Kael's position. And since some of Garithos' forces did make it to Theramore (to be present for other storylines post founding of Orgrimmar) it stands to reason that YEAH the Alliance on some level was informed.

[baskev]

Don't get me wrong, I know during WCI & II the Horde were the bad guys. Since Vanilla however the Horde were depicted as a group of exiles banding together to survive (something I really liked!). Beyond PvP the conflict was mostly border disputes until Cataclysm. Granted Garrosh became a War Criminal but he was cast out by the Horde. Now obviously Sylvanas is evil and I agree Blizzard did a terrible job regarding the Horde throughout BfA, BUT do people genuinely believe that the Horde were always evil?

Personally I play both factions so naturally have seen the good, the bad and the ugly side from both sides.

Think this is a non answer question.

Because blizzard writes things in a perspective from a certain point of view. ( a hero of the alliance or horde).

And history of Azoroth wise, there have been times where the horde was evil ( teldrassil burning, Garrosh support) but also where alliance was evil ( old alliance that is) or alliance did stupid things ( thunder tottem gat attack, stonard).

But to the simpelst version of your question. Is the horde as a faction always evil, Nope. But has it done very big Evil things, and very much more evil as the alliance. Somewhere reactions to outside forces ( legion, alliance etc) or inside sub factions ( si 7, sylvanas).

Are they always bad guys, nope. But they have done the most evil in recent years. They started the most evil things. I know people wil argue: alliance did this or that. But if you look at the grand total of things. Horde or former members have ravage 3 zones/burned cities, bombed a city, started death camps in darkshore etc etc.

And yes i think alliance had a part to play in it. As example not sent a army to silithus. But the question is, who over reacted the most, and the biggest. And lets all be honest there. Horde over reacted the most. Hell they have had 2 civil wars because of it.

But again, its how blizzard has written the horde.
And you should be happy, you get story, and new lore.

[eurojust]

You say this.... and then immediately argue this:



The alliance of lordearon and the alliance of stormwind have more in common with each other than Thrall's Horde has with Black Hand's, Ogrim's, Or whatever horde you want to say was active in a given storyline.

Also, for the record. Garithos' actions were known to Dalaran and he had reinforcements from Ironforge somehow informed of his, and by extentions, Kael's position. And since some of Garithos' forces did make it to Theramore (to be present for other storylines post founding of Orgrimmar) it stands to reason that YEAH the Alliance on some level was informed.

They have almost nothing in common. Even the symbol isn't the same. The core of the Alliance of Lordaeron was the humans of Lordaeron (wiped out by the Forsaken) and the remnant was just a shell of their former self, lead by some warlord whose values were at the opposite of this organization. The Alliance of Lordaeron actions were nobles. They could have ended the genocidal aliens known as the Orcs but they didn't because they believed in redemption.
Meanwhile the current Horde has the exact same core as the "old" one. Why do you think that they named their capital Orgrimmar if they are nothing like the old Horde?
Show me instances of current Alliance worshiping Garithos. And Dalaran is neutral by the way and has high/blood elves in it. Probably the reason why the whole Garithos thing was never brought by WoW again.
Garithos forces never made it to Theramore as far as i know. Please share some source about that.

[loras]

Well now... let's see

Use of biologic weapons on towns and cities - check
Burning a civilian population - check
Terrorist bombing of a town - check
Death and assassination squads - check
Large scale deforestation - check
Aggressive conquest - check


All this actively and passively supported by the horde races so yeah, evil to the core and so are those playing horde characters

You forget the use of the warcraft equivalent of nukes.
Also tendency towards corruption / being used by clearly hostile cosmic forces (initially fel, shadow under Garrosh and a bit of death under Dylvanas).

[TheRevenantHero]

You say this.... and then immediately argue this:



The alliance of lordearon and the alliance of stormwind have more in common with each other than Thrall's Horde has with Black Hand's, Ogrim's, Or whatever horde you want to say was active in a given storyline.

Also, for the record. Garithos' actions were known to Dalaran and he had reinforcements from Ironforge somehow informed of his, and by extentions, Kael's position. And since some of Garithos' forces did make it to Theramore (to be present for other storylines post founding of Orgrimmar) it stands to reason that YEAH the Alliance on some level was informed.

There's no point arguing with him. He is incapable of accepting his own logic used against him. There's a reason I stopped debating with him. He doesn't have a single solid point.

[Captain Proton]

Draenei, Night Elves = genocide. Also attempted genocide on the humans twice (wc1, wc2).
I could also count the Forsaken finishing what the Scourge started by killing every human left in Lordaeron.

Why do Draenei and Night Elves get a pass with their involvement with the Legion while the orcs don't? Orcs were a super primitative race who's planet was revealed to the Legion because of the Draenei's former comrades? Orcs don't get a pass because of the Frostwolves not participating.

The Elves aligned with the Legion and brought them to Azeroth. A human helped open the dark portal. The orcs were dumb pawns in a war caused by the much more advanced Night Elves and Draenei/Eredar, who didn't even need to be tricked like the orcs.

[eurojust]

Why do Draenei and Night Elves get a pass with their involvement with the Legion while the orcs don't? Orcs were a super primitative race who's planet was revealed to the Legion because of the Draenei's former comrades? Orcs don't get a pass because of the Frostwolves not participating.

The Elves aligned with the Legion and brought them to Azeroth. A human helped open the dark portal. The orcs were dumb pawns in a war caused by the much more advanced Night Elves and Draenei/Eredar, who didn't even need to be tricked like the orcs.

The Draenei on Outland are the ones who fled from the Legion. I don't recall them trying to do anything to the Orcs. Nice victim blaming. The Elves aligned with the Legion were mostly Highbornes and the Night Elves fought them. One human =/= the human race (btw that human was corrupted).
If the Orcs are dumb pawns who can't be held responsible for their act, then indeed they shouldn't be free.

[kukkamies]

They have almost nothing in common. Even the symbol isn't the same. The core of the Alliance of Lordaeron was the humans of Lordaeron (wiped out by the Forsaken) and the remnant was just a shell of their former self, lead by some warlord whose values were at the opposite of this organization.

I don't think they are that different. The military leader of Alliance of Lordaeron was Anduin Lothar. The current king's Anduin Wrynn's name came from him. In wowwiki Terenas Menethil was supporting Varian Wrynn and Stormwind a lot and in response Wrynns were standing with Terenas and Lordaeron.
A lot of the 2nd war was all about saving Stormwind and Wrynn getting back in power with Terenas' and the Alliances help.
They even say the "Alliance of Lordaeron served as the ultimate inspiration for the new Alliance".

I think much more similar than fel orcs and current orcs.

[Captain Proton]

The Draenei on Outland are the ones who fled from the Legion. I don't recall them trying to do anything to the Orcs. Nice victim blaming. The Elves aligned with the Legion were mostly Highbornes and the Night Elves fought them.
If the Orcs are dumb pawns who can't be held responsible for their act, then indeed they shouldn't let be free.

The Draenei are Eredar. Eredar are the one's who allied with the Legion and the Draenei brought them to the Orc's planet. The Eredar with the Legion corrupted the Orcs and instructed them to attack the Draenei.

The Orcs, too, are victims yet they are blamed constantly. That's the point, why not Draenei too?

True some of the Night Elves fought off the Legion, just like not all Orcs followed the legion. Just like not all Night Elves followed the Legion or Eredar/Draenei follow the Legion.

[eurojust]

The Draenei are Eredar. Eredar are the one's who allied with the Legion and the Draenei brought them to the Orc's planet. The Eredar with the Legion corrupted the Orcs and instructed them to attack the Draenei.

The Orcs, too, are victims yet they are blamed constantly. That's the point, why not Draenei too?

Indeed and the draenei in the alliance aren't eredar. So I don't get your point. The Orcs started to genocide the Draenei even before drinking the Fel blood iirc (and they drank the Fel blood willingly). Again, that's pretty sick how you blame the victims of a massive genocide and make apologize for mass genociders.

[Captain Proton]

Indeed and the draenei in the alliance aren't eredar. So I don't get your point. The Orcs started to genocide the Draenei even before drinking the Fel blood iirc (and they drank the Fel blood willingly). Again, that's pretty sick how you blame the victims of a massive genocide and make apologize for mass genociders.

The Draenei ARE Eredar. The Draenei is a name for the Eredar exiles who didn't align with Legion. Just like the playable Orcs aren't the old horde orcs who aligned with the Legion. The tribal, no technology orcs were MANIPULATED by the advanced space faring Eredar. You don't get the point because you can't see through your hypocrisy.

[Accendor]

Yes they are evil. Except the tauren or newly added panda/vulperas every horde race is evil especially muh fel addiction orcs.

The Vulpera are actually the only exceptions. Pandaren and Tauren too took part in the Genocide at Teldrassil and the Slaughtering at Brennendam, so yeah. Fuck that part of their culture too, I guess.

[eurojust]

I don't think they are that different. The military leader of Alliance of Lordaeron was Anduin Lothar. The current king's Anduin Wrynn's name came from him. In wowwiki Terenas Menethil was supporting Varian Wrynn and Stormwind a lot and in response Wrynns were standing with Terenas and Lordaeron.
A lot of the 2nd war was all about saving Stormwind and Wrynn getting back in power with Terenas' and the Alliances help.
They even say the "Alliance of Lordaeron served as the ultimate inspiration for the new Alliance".

I think much more similar than fel orcs and current orcs.

Green Orcs of the current Horde are the same people as the Green Orcs of the "old" Horde. Perhaps that the humans from Stormwind admired some heroes from Lordaeron but they aren't the same people. But this debate is kinda pointless anyway, since the Alliance of Lordaeron weren't bad guys and didn't commit any genocide, quite the contrary since they spared the Orcs (The High Elves wanted them all dead).