9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Define "morally grey". If a villain is "morally grey" because they are evil but are driven by good intentions, then Yes, Sylvanas will be what you would call a "morally grey villain".

These people are villains, of course they will commit evil acts. Every villain from every story will have done something evil, that's why they're villains. However, since Blizzard is clearly writing Sylvanas as an extremist who genuinely has good intentions but is completely delusional, then Yes, she is morally grey. Just like Sargeras was morally grey, because even if he tried to commit omnicide, he was fundamentally terrified of the Void Lords (as he should be).

So even if these people are evil, which they obviously are (since Sylvanas committed genocide), they would still be morally grey by virtue of the fact that they don't want to do evil stuff for fun, like Gul'dan or Archimonde.

There's also the fact that the Jailer can be a complex villain while having evil intentions. You don't need to be morally grey to be a good villain. If these people do their job and actually come up with a convincing/compelling motivation that ties neatly into his backstory, then he will be a decent villain.

Sylvanas' morality is pretty much black by this point though. There is a level below for completely irredeemable character like Archimonde, but as far as evil characters go she is pretty far down there.

The comparision to Arthas is quite apt, the difference being that so far there is no good reason given for why Sylvanas went completely insane other than not wanting to go to hell. Arthas did have a motivation for good at the core that got layered in more and more evil acts as he went along all up until he picked up Frostmourne.
Sylvanas meanwhile has no such good explanation given as of this moment, and the magnitude of her evil acts means that her "good intention" has to be of such magnitude that her acts can somehow be somewhat excused, and given the acts we have seen, and her seeming refusal to confide in others what this intention is then the good intention has to be the defining moment of the entirety of SL for the playerbase to buy it.

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Well of course. He's new, we haven't had any chance to learn about him yet. Grading him on that makes little sense.

Though personally i'd have prefered the BlizzCon concept over giant human.

I would argue that we don't have enough time to know stuff about him. Especially not if we want his defeat to feel more important than the final death or defeat of Sylvanas.

[Lahis]

PITIFUL MORTALS DIE!

-Zovaal the Jailer

Give this guy some motivations and some story jesus christ.. hes already going in the books as the worst generic villain.. expansion hasnt even started yet.

Blizzard isn't good at writing nuanced villains. Saturday Morning Cartoon baddie will turn out better than Morally Grey™ characters.

[Alanar]

Well of course. He's new, we haven't had any chance to learn about him yet. Grading him on that makes little sense.

Though personally i'd have prefered the BlizzCon concept over giant human.

Ofc, but they maybe.. just an suggestion.. could have made one of those cartoons for the maw.. learn a thing or 2 of the jailer??

Sire Danathrius is a new villain, but many people already liked him first time they saw him. Throw in a couple of cool lines and a good voice actor and appearntly thats all it took.

The giant blue man sound and look generic, thats why I was sad when I learned the big guy with the beard was ditched. I already wanted to find out more about him and what he was afther. When they told us that THIS is the jailer.. many lost interest for some reason. Looks are important as well.. not just the goals.

[tristannarutofan]

Define "morally grey". If a villain is "morally grey" because they are evil but are driven by good intentions, then Yes, Sylvanas will be what you would call a "morally grey villain".

These people are villains, of course they will commit evil acts. Every villain from every story will have done something evil, that's why they're villains. However, since Blizzard is clearly writing Sylvanas as an extremist who genuinely has good intentions but is completely delusional, then Yes, she is morally grey. Just like Sargeras was morally grey, because even if he tried to commit omnicide, he was fundamentally terrified of the Void Lords (as he should be).

So even if these people are evil, which they obviously are (since Sylvanas committed genocide), they would still be morally grey by virtue of the fact that they don't want to do evil stuff for fun, like Gul'dan or Archimonde.

There's also the fact that the Jailer can be a complex villain while having evil intentions. You don't need to be morally grey to be a good villain. If these people do their job and actually come up with a convincing/compelling motivation that ties neatly into his backstory, then he will be a decent villain.

yep, its widely aggreed upon that in their books they get across their story elements well. The problem is they havent mastered telling those stories in an mmo setting, and i'd say no one has. People talk about how good FF14's story is, but while i love the game there is way to much dialogue boxes, and flat/static characters. In the bard story, an npc you were working with joined a group of bandits who kill people and terrorize the forest, cus she's had a bunch of elves say racist things to her for months, and once you defeat her she realizes she was wrong. it was NOT very good writing, happened to quick, was to extreme and to simple.

You find the best writers out there and SOMEONE out there can write an 8 page essay on how they are bad. Its almost like art is pretty subjective.

they know how to do morally grey characters, they know how to do complex characters. I still cringe when i think about the people asking at blizzcon if Jaina is evil and the sheer confusion on the faces of the Q and A people. This i believe was after Warlords in which the most recent thing Jaina did was to tell kadgar she didnt trust the people who tried to kill her and the kirin tor, and to tell him to be careful. Its probably because in Mists jaina said to destroy the faction that is the Horde and people interpreted that as her saying they should murder all of them or something.

They know what they are doing at the most accurate insult is to say like....maybe their reading lvl is jr high grade in complexity . Their story isnt high art and it never claimed to be. its just a story to go along with a video game about killing dragons and picking flowers. Their stories are objectively, not 'bad' either. Bad writing is when you assume one passing line is enough to establish a character trait, or you try to make crying show the character is happy but fail to describe anything else in their expression to show that its not Sad crying. THAT is bad writing. But Campy writing, high epic writing, accessible writing, writing with little nuance ...its all not bad writing. "Everybody Poos" and "Romeo and Juliet" are two different Styles of writing but neither are Bad writing.

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Ofc, but they maybe.. just an suggestion.. could have made one of those cartoons for the maw.. learn a thing or 2 of the jailer??

Sire Danathrius is a new villain, but many people already liked him first time they saw him. Throw in a couple of cool lines and a good voice actor and appearntly thats all it took.

The giant blue man sound and look generic, thats why I was sad when I learned the big guy with the beard was ditched. I already wanted to find out more about him and what he was afther. When they told us that THIS is the jailer.. many lost interest for some reason. Looks are important as well.. not just the goals.

we literally have a whole expansion to learn about him

why would we know his goals when we havent even met the character yet?

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Blizzard isn't good at writing nuanced villains. Saturday Morning Cartoon baddie will turn out better than Morally Grey™ characters.

they actually are. but 'fans' just are obsessed with oversimplying things to attack the writers for some reason.

Gul'dan was the most 'evil for the sake of evil" villain and they even made him a little complex what with his Warlords story and him only staying with sargeras because he saw how strong we were.

[Alanar]

]
we literally have a whole expansion to learn about him

why would we know his goals when we havent even met the character yet?.

Thanks mister obvious, but you missed the part that Denathrius is also a new villain and already had more likes and that was before we even saw him in game.

Sure we will learn.. and yes I agree, goals arent everything, but I already said that IN the post you quoted lol.

But still it feels they could have already done more to peak the interest, which is like zero now. I mean he looks dull as well.. we need more info on him, but hes in for a rough start. He has big shoes to fill anf not talking about hes size.

[huth]

Thanks mister obvious, but you missed the part that Denathrius is also a new villain and already had more likes and that was before we even saw him in game.

Sure we will learn.. like always, but still it feels they could have already done more to peak the interest, which is like zero now.

He's also getting kicked out in the first raid, while the Jailor will likely be around until the end of the expansion.

[Alanar]

He's also getting kicked out in the first raid, while the Jailor will likely be around until the end of the expansion.

Which is sad.

Edit: there was some talk about him being ressed in some datamined stuff, but that a differnt topic.

Denathrius is just more popular already which is not a good start for the jailer.

[Sondrelk]

Which is sad.

Edit: there was some talk about him being ressed in some datamined stuff, but that a differnt topic.

Denathrius is just more popular already which is not a good start for the jailer.

The problem is even then Sylvanas has been known since WC3, and has been built up as a major threat since Legion. The players are intimately aware of how dangerous she is and have ample reason to hate her guts and want to see her dead.
The Jailer could have a really interesting backstory, but even if we assume there is an unknown questline in 9.0 that explains his motivations and gives players reasons to hate him, defeating him still won't feel as cathartic as defeating Sylvanas will, which is why I feel she will stay alive until the final patch. Her death is simply the emotional climax of Shadowlands, and while the expansion can coast on that high for a while it would feel the expansion feel lackluster if she dies long before the final raid.

[razorpax]

Which is sad.

Edit: there was some talk about him being ressed in some datamined stuff, but that a differnt topic.

Denathrius is just more popular already which is not a good start for the jailer.

The guy mentioned through a zone’s quest line and the afterlives short is more popular than the guy that we’ve seen for 5 seconds in trailers??? No waaaayyyyy

I see the game going like this
9.0: set up and rallying covenants
9.1: cleaning up jailer’s influence in the zones and covenants/ KT defeat
9.2 initial assault on the maw

[Aeluron Lightsong]

We've barely seen the guy, we'll know more as time goes by.

[Sondrelk]

The guy mentioned through a zone’s quest line and the afterlives short is more popular than the guy that we’ve seen for 5 seconds in trailers??? No waaaayyyyy

I see the game going like this
9.0: set up and rallying covenants
9.1: cleaning up jailer’s influence in the zones and covenants/ KT defeat
9.2 initial assault on the maw

Going by the recent structure of expansions my guess would be:

9.0: Solving localized problem. Nathria in this case.
9.1: Solving general problem. In this case Anima drought/Arbiter comatose. My guess for raid would be Naxxramas 3.0.
9.2: Side plot. Solving a b-plot linked, but not directly affecting whatever the main plot is. My guess would be Thros and defeating the Drust.
9.3: Resolving main plot. In this case saving the Shadowlands and/or Azeroth. Most likely place for Torghast raid.

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By not directly affecting I should rather say having the zone be focused on a specific facet of something that is not the actual main villain.
4.2 being about defeating Ragnaros.
5.2 being about defeating the Thunder King and Mogu.
8.2 being about defeating Naga.

Cannot remember if it was actually 3.2, but Ulduar having pretty much nothing to do with the Scourge.

[Varodoc]

9.1: We go to a new realm of the Shadowlands, probably where the "machine of death" is located, we fix it, Kel'Thuzad end boss.

9.2: Now that the Maw no longer gets a constant flow of anima, we invade the Maw with the other covenants, Sylvanas end boss, Jailer betrays her/lets her die, either way the zombie is gone. However the Jailer does some shady shenanigans and somehow things get worse.
A Maw raid in patch 9.2 mirrors patch 6.2 and 7.2. Both patches took place in a zone that we briefly saw in the opening scenario of the expansion, but was too dangerous to dwell in so we had to escape.
9.2.5: Mini-raid about the Light and Void to build up 10.0. The Light and Void both seek to conquer the Shadowlands, there is evidence of past invasions in Bastion, Maldraxxus, and Revendreth. Sensing a window of opportunity, Light/Void send their agents to mess with the machine of death. Alternatively this can take place in 9.1.5, either way I foresee another mini-raid like the Crucible of Storm in BfA.

9.3: The Jailer gains access to the Sepulcher (according to the Primus, that is his target), the Archon finally wakes up to help us stop the Jailer, Jailer end boss. -ALTERNATIVELY- The Jailer attempts to merge the Shadowlands with the living cosmos and the final encounter takes place where it all began -- The Frozen Throne (maybe this is the mythic phase, like how N'Zoth tried to merge Ny'alotha with the Chamber of the Heart).
Either way, at the end of the fight, the Jailer is locked away for good and the rift in the sky is mended before it can engulf everything that exists.

This is my prediction, based on Blizzard interviews and past expansions.

Regardles, this plea from the Primus is key to the endgame of Shadowlands:

I am the Primus. Your presence within my sanctum means a darkness has fallen upon Maldraxxus... and all the realms of Death.
Ages ago, the Eternal Ones punished our brother Zovaal for his treachery. He was bound within the inescapable Maw, to be forevermore its Jailer.
Now I fear that Zovaal did not act alone. I suspect he had ancient allies... and will seek to win others to his cause.
That you are hearing this message means my suspicions proved true. Zovaal has forged his chains into a weapon... and brought about my defeat.
There is but one hope to save the Shadowlands. The Eternal Ones must stand together once more, before the Jailer escapes the Maw.
Bring my warning to the Archon, the Winter Queen, and the Sire. They must see to our defenses. Do not let Zovaal reach the sepulcher.
The Arbiter is the final key. Protect her, or all is lost.

The set-up from Blizzard is blatant.

[Eurhetemec]

With the new information available, almost definitely Nathrezim. 6 masters are the 6 cosmic forces/their representatives. The real question here is who they really serve.

Blind Queen could possibly be Sylvanas or some Shadowlands character. Five lanterns would fit the Flights after Cataclysm, although i don't think the second part of that has happened yet, so it wouldn't make much sense currently.

Crown of Light could just be metaphor for Turalyon's reign. Also, since when is he a half-elf? Arator is one, if Turalyon also where he'd be a 3/4 elf.

Sorry yes, confusing his ancestry with that of his son.

Re: his reign, yes maybe, or some kind of structure he has built or modified (I would see him slapping bigass light crystals all over Stormwind castle if he got in charge).

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Which is sad.

Edit: there was some talk about him being ressed in some datamined stuff, but that a differnt topic.

Denathrius is just more popular already which is not a good start for the jailer.

Alanar, you didn't have to make so many posts to say "I ALWAYS JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER!!!!"

[Sondrelk]

9.1: We go to a new realm of the Shadowlands, probably where the "machine of death" is located, we fix it, Kel'Thuzad end boss.

9.2: Now that the Maw no longer gets a constant flow of anima, we invade the Maw with the other covenants, Sylvanas end boss, Jailer betrays her/lets her die, either way the zombie is gone. However the Jailer does some shady shenanigans and somehow things get worse.
A Maw raid in patch 9.2 mirrors patch 6.2 and 7.2. Both patches took place in a zone that we briefly saw in the opening scenario of the expansion, but was too dangerous to dwell in so we had to escape.
9.2.5: Mini-raid about the Light and Void to build up 10.0. The Light and Void both seek to conquer the Shadowlands, there is evidence of past invasions in Bastion, Maldraxxus, and Revendreth. Sensing a window of opportunity, Light/Void send their agents to mess with the machine of death. Alternatively this can take place in 9.1.5, either way I foresee another mini-raid like the Crucible of Storm in BfA.

9.3: The Jailer gains access to the Sepulcher (according to the Primus, that is his target), the Archon finally wakes up to help us stop the Jailer, Jailer end boss. -ALTERNATIVELY- The Jailer attempts to merge the Shadowlands with the living cosmos and the final encounter takes place where it all began -- The Frozen Throne (maybe this is the mythic phase, like N'Zoth tried to merge Ny'alotha with the Chamber of the Heart).
Either way, at the end of the fight, the Jailer is locked away for good and the rift in the sky is mended before it can engulf everything that exists.

This is my prediction, based on Blizzard interviews and past expansions.

Regardles, this plea from the Primus is key to the endgame of Shadowlands:


The set-up from Blizzard is blatant.

I do feel confident 9.2 will be the "breather" patch where we deal with something not directly linked to the Maw. The Drust is the likely option, especially if you subscribe ot the theory that we will have one raid dedicated to each covenant. (Nathria for Venthyr, Kel'thuzad for Necrolords, Mawsworn/Arthas for Kyrian)
The Broker world is also a likely suspect I suppose, but I feel that would be more fitting if Blizzard goes for something similar to Mechagon.

Another reason why 9.2 will likely not be directly tied to the Maw is because it fits pretty well narratively and as a way to prevent burnout. We have 2 patches dedicated to something specific before taking a small detour ot taking care of something else, leaving us rejuvunated and ready to dive head first into the endgame.
If we assume WoD was supposed to have a Shattrath raid then it would have fit perfectly into this as well, leaving only Legion as the odd one out, and that one even kinda proved why having only one major theme throughout is a bad idea, because Tomb of Sargeras almost got completely lost in the noise of black and fel green.

[Alanar]

Sorry yes, confusing his ancestry with that of his son.

Re: his reign, yes maybe, or some kind of structure he has built or modified (I would see him slapping bigass light crystals all over Stormwind castle if he got in charge).

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Alanar, you didn't have to make so many posts to say "I ALWAYS JUDGE A BOOK BY ITS COVER!!!!"

Thats my point, nothing else to judge.. I know that.
I was saying earlier that we need alot more info on the guy to NOT only judge its cover.

Hope that helps.

[Cosmic Janitor]

We have already had our totally-not-Garrosh 2.0
Now it is time to meet the Jailer!
He will be our "Sylvanas is a morally grey, well-written character." 2.0
OMEGALUL

At this point it's kinda pointless to hope for well written villains in WoW. The only major one they ever managed to create during the life-time of WoW was probably onyxia, since she was the only one that managed to come up with a good plan that she executed well and her canon ending never even made it into WoW in the first place.

The Jailer is just another boob in the never ending line up of god tier villains that don't finish what they start. Just the fact that they conveniently captured our leaders but don't kill them is third rate bond villain levels of stupid. His design is also not exactly awe inspiring. They managed to break his chains but he still wears that ridiculous "Saw"-reject get-up for some reason. Either he needs to be more imposing and myserious in the background or he needs be more imposing with more direct interaction and some exposition why we should give a damn about him. He might as well just be a structure that needs to be torn down right now.

It's a bit like BfA tbh, as the overarching plot is by far weaker than most of the local ones again. But that obviously also detracts a bit from the maw itself compared to other zones, because their plots are way more engaging.

[Alanar]

The problem is even then Sylvanas has been known since WC3, and has been built up as a major threat since Legion. The players are intimately aware of how dangerous she is and have ample reason to hate her guts and want to see her dead.
The Jailer could have a really interesting backstory, but even if we assume there is an unknown questline in 9.0 that explains his motivations and gives players reasons to hate him, defeating him still won't feel as cathartic as defeating Sylvanas will, which is why I feel she will stay alive until the final patch. Her death is simply the emotional climax of Shadowlands, and while the expansion can coast on that high for a while it would feel the expansion feel lackluster if she dies long before the final raid.

That is true, 15 years vs a nobody will always be unfair.

But I get it.. lets keep the guy mysterious untill no one cares anymore.

Thats why I though it was a good idea to get the jailer in one of these shortstories so we get up to speed.. just to get some insight. In beta everyone fears him.. but no one knows why.. its just stupid.

I get what people are saying that we dont know the guy.. and that is exactly the problem for me...

[TickTickTick]

Define "morally grey". If a villain is "morally grey" because they are evil but are driven by good intentions, then Yes, Sylvanas will be what you would call a "morally grey villain".

She is morally grey only because Blizzard said so. None of her actions prove it though. Neither the way she presents herself, her thoughts, her opinion. Everything about her is vile at best, evil at worst.

If they for some pathetic reason write her to be a saviour or whatever other nonsense her fanboys want her to be, after 2 (and then however long will it last in SL) expansions then it's a bad writing, simple as that. You just can't write a character as evil from the begining then at the last moment reveal "SURPIRSE! AKCHUALY it all had a reason she wanted to save us all!!"

IDK what cosmic troubles are there in the universe, nothing allowed her to use unwilling azerothians, spark a baseless war, kill people, separate families and destroy homes. This isnt morally grey, it's evil. Unless you want to argue Sargeras is morally grey too, because his "intentions" were good even if the way he wanted to do it is extremely bad.

[Jastall]

Danuser/Ion (one of the two) specifically mentioned that they have major plans for the Jailer, as they will explain his motivations and backstory throughout the expansion.

Never forget this: The Jailer, and not Sylvanas, is the MAIN VILLAIN and CENTRAL DRIVING FORCE of Shadowlands. If you think Sylvanas will remain a major villain for ALL of Shadowlands, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Conversely, by the end of Shadowlands, when all has been revealed, you will most likely see the Jailer in a different light.

They also had big yuge plans for BFA and the story was a dumpster fire regardless. I don't trust a word Danuser says regarding such things.

[TickTickTick]

The giant blue man sound and look generic, thats why I was sad when I learned the big guy with the beard was ditched. I already wanted to find out more about him and what he was afther. When they told us that THIS is the jailer.. many lost interest for some reason. Looks are important as well.. not just the goals.

I think the main problem is that we start an expansion caused by someone, who is also the main villain, who we dont know much about. We dont know anything really, what he is, why is he there, why is he the jailer and why someone like this is needed. Is he the Maw itself, the Death, or is there something bigger. Literally nothing. Hard to be interested in something like that. And it's not a matter of mystery, they just decided to not tell us.

They probably keep it for the later patches, but then... the whole SL expansion revolves around him. Later patches is too late in such situation.

It's already pretty sad that a last boss of entry raid is far more interesting and villain-ly than his big bad boss and (supposedly) last boss of the expansion.