Shadowlands Sylvanas and Anduin cinematic.

[TheRevenantHero]

Because biggest dick who was Alliance affiliated ever was either Daelin or Garithos. Daelin was a Kul'Tiras leader, and specifically commanded Kul'Tiran fleet while Jaina , his own daughter opposed him. Garithos was an upstart post-apocaliptic warlord with a chip on his shoulder and commanded a ragged "army" of refugees, surviving Lordaeron troops and some Dwarves who couldnt get to Khaz Modan and so had to stick around. Both cases only have the "bad apple" leading either one single faction or a mish-mash militia in a time of lawlessness. Unlike Horde who always lines up behind an evil Warchief/leader figure be that Gul'Dan (and yes, Gul Dan betrayed them but so did Sylvanas) , Garrosh or Sylvanas. Have i explained my point? If Varian for example went mad and decided to torch Thunderbluff or take over Silvermoon by force and put elves on a mana-diet and entire Alliance followed eagerly (because yes, both Garrosh and Sylvanas were pretty much celebrated as leaders until the very end) then i would have agreed with you.

Genn committed a literal war crime in Stormheim. The dwarves genocided an entire tauren clan. The Alliance sank goblin ships fleeing from Kezan because they had the gall to witness the attempted kidnapping of Thrall. Archbishop Benedictus was literally the Twilight Father. These are just a few examples that Alliance players like to either disregard or say they were acting alone.

[VladlTutushkin]

Genn committed a literal war crime in Stormheim. The dwarves genocided an entire tauren clan. The Alliance sank goblin ships fleeing from Kezan because they had the gall to witness the attempted kidnapping of Thrall. Archbishop Benedictus was literally the Twilight Father. These are just a few examples that Alliance players like to either disregard or say they were acting alone.

Genn attacked soldiers on warships. Its a violation of peace, not a warcrime. If he went to Lordaeron and attacked forsaken civilians while sylvanas was away that would have being a warcrime. Stonespire clan happened in Vanilla, old new. Plus since then ALL of those dwarves were killed. Benedictus havent led Alliance and acted covertly, its the same as blaming horde for actions of a Burning Blade clan or Dark Shamans or horde members of the Cult of the Damned. Again - we never had a moment when High King chose genocide and whole Alliance cheered and followed.

[TheRevenantHero]

Genn attacked soldiers on warships. Its a violation of peace, not a warcrime. If he went to Lordaeron and attacked forsaken civilians while sylvanas was away that would have being a warcrime. Stonespire clan happened in Vanilla, old new. Plus since then ALL of those dwarves were killed. Benedictus havent led Alliance and acted covertly, its the same as blaming horde for actions of a Burning Blade clan or Dark Shamans or horde members of the Cult of the Damned. Again - we never had a moment when High King chose genocide and whole Alliance cheered and followed.

Violating a ceasefire is a war crime. Which is what Genn did. Also, just because something happened in vanilla doesn't make it any less horrific. But you're really further proving my point that Alliance fans outright refuse to admit the Alliance can be evil.

And I see people CONSTANTLY putting the actions of the Burning Blade and dark shamans entirely on the Horde as a whole. And your last comment is over-dramatic and inaccurate. Nobody cheered. They hesitated before following orders for fear that if they didn't, Sylvanas would murder them then do it herself. Furthermore, Teldrassil doesn't fit the definition of genocide.

[Unholyground]

It's quite clear that they're setting her up to take the jailers place somehow.

[VladlTutushkin]

Violating a ceasefire is a war crime. Which is what Genn did. Also, just because something happened in vanilla doesn't make it any less horrific. But you're really further proving my point that Alliance fans outright refuse to admit the Alliance can be evil.

And I see people CONSTANTLY putting the actions of the Burning Blade and dark shamans entirely on the Horde as a whole. And your last comment is over-dramatic and inaccurate. Nobody cheered. They hesitated before following orders for fear that if they didn't, Sylvanas would murder them then do it herself. Furthermore, Teldrassil doesn't fit the definition of genocide.

Teldrassil fits the definition and that was explained why - whole night elven population that kept escaping the horde aggression migrated there. Or rather they migrated to Ashenvale from all over Kalimdor, then to Darkshore and then ran off to Teldrassil when war began. So essentially horde burned down overcrowded island-sized tree with pretty much entire Kalimdor worth of night elven civvies who thought they would be safe there. Thats the whole point of Teldrassil being a huge tragedy and a genocide.
And when you talk of war crimes and broken ceasefires i shall remind you how horde initiated hostilities on Ashran because "Alliance might have found something there so we better go whack them before they take it" and nobody started a war of extermination because of that.
Only idiots put the actions of BB or Dark Shamans or CotD on the factions because those groups are non-factional and specifically have both faction races in them.
And no, horde wasnt hesitant or afraid, they were almost jubilant afterwards. I say that based on words of both Saurfang and Lor'Themar. Lor'Themar claims especially that Sylvanas "has the hearts of the horde" and thinks that even his own people might not follow him because of how popular sylvanas is. You cant "take the hearts" by fear, you cant make people choose you over their racial leader by fear.

[TheRevenantHero]

Teldrassil fits the definition and that was explained why - whole night elven population that kept escaping the horde aggression migrated there. Or rather they migrated to Ashenvale from all over Kalimdor, then to Darkshore and then ran off to Teldrassil when war began. So essentially horde burned down overcrowded island-sized tree with pretty much entire Kalimdor worth of night elven civvies who thought they would be safe there. Thats the whole point of Teldrassil being a huge tragedy and a genocide.
And when you talk of war crimes and broken ceasefires i shall remind you how horde initiated hostilities on Ashran because "Alliance might have found something there so we better go whack them before they take it" and nobody started a war of extermination because of that.
Only idiots put the actions of BB or Dark Shamans or CotD on the factions because those groups are non-factional and specifically have both faction races in them.
And no, horde wasnt hesitant or afraid, they were almost jubilant afterwards. I say that based on words of both Saurfang and Lor'Themar. Lor'Themar claims especially that Sylvanas "has the hearts of the horde" and thinks that even his own people might not follow him because of how popular sylvanas is. You cant "take the hearts" by fear, you cant make people choose you over their racial leader by fear.

That is literally just Blizzard having no idea what genocide is. Genocide is the systematic eradication of an entire people based on race, creed, or political beliefs. Sylvanas' goal wasn't to wipe out the Kaldorei, it was to try and break the Alliance's morale. So therefore, it's technically not genocide. Because otherwise, you would have to call the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WWII genocide. Furthermore, it's canon that most of the elves were evacuated through portals. Was Teldrassil a tragedy? Yes. Was it genocide? No.

Hey guess what? Your comment about Ashran is nothing but a strawman. The ceasefire was declared AFTER Ashran, something Genn violated and therefore he committed a war crime. And your comment about people being idiots, I agree. Most Alliance fans are because they constantly say that the actions of Garrosh and the dark shamans should be treated as a crime the Horde committed despite the rebellion against Garrosh.

Lmfao what?! I think you watched a different cut scene because there was nobody celebrating or being jubilant after the command to torch Teldrassil was given. Furthermore, Lor'Themar's opinion is that Sylvanas has the "hearts of the Horde" but that's all it is. An opinion of ONE man. And Lor'Themar habitually puts the blame of his people doubting him on someone else constantly. He's been doing it since Mists.

So yeah. You're utterly wrong.

[VladlTutushkin]

That is literally just Blizzard having no idea what genocide is. Genocide is the systematic eradication of an entire people based on race, creed, or political beliefs. Sylvanas' goal wasn't to wipe out the Kaldorei, it was to try and break the Alliance's morale. So therefore, it's technically not genocide. Because otherwise, you would have to call the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WWII genocide. Furthermore, it's canon that most of the elves were evacuated through portals. Was Teldrassil a tragedy? Yes. Was it genocide? No.

Hey guess what? Your comment about Ashran is nothing but a strawman. The ceasefire was declared AFTER Ashran, something Genn violated and therefore he committed a war crime. And your comment about people being idiots, I agree. Most Alliance fans are because they constantly say that the actions of Garrosh and the dark shamans should be treated as a crime the Horde committed despite the rebellion against Garrosh.

Lmfao what?! I think you watched a different cut scene because there was nobody celebrating or being jubilant after the command to torch Teldrassil was given. Furthermore, Lor'Themar's opinion is that Sylvanas has the "hearts of the Horde" but that's all it is. An opinion of ONE man. And Lor'Themar habitually puts the blame of his people doubting him on someone else constantly. He's been doing it since Mists.

So yeah. You're utterly wrong.

Yeah, i see. You just going to dismiss all i say no matter how many arguments i bring because that dosent fit your attempts to make horde innocent of the crime that will forever hang over them. You know, Allinace will forgive and forget, they already did mostly but at least have some dignity and try to look sad for a second or two before prancing off to another act of "questionable behavior". Is that too much to ask?
And i already said that Teldrassil is a genocide because of MAJORITY OF A RACE WAS THERE. If majority of japanese lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki then yes, bombing would have being a genocide. But it wasnt so.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yeah, i see. You just going to dismiss all i say no matter how many arguments i bring because that dosent fit your attempts to make horde innocent of the crime that will forever hang over them. You know, Allinace will forgive and forget, they already did mostly but at least have some dignity and try to look sad for a second or two before prancing off to another act of "questionable behavior". Is that too much to ask?
And i already said that Teldrassil is a genocide because of MAJORITY OF A RACE WAS THERE. If majority of japanese lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki then yes, bombing would have being a genocide. But it wasnt so.

I never once said the Horde was innocent so stop being overdramatic. I even said it was a tragedy. You're just upset that I won't call it a genocide. The reason I won't is because it doesn't fit the parameters OF genocide. The Alliance does NOT forgive and forget. As a matter of fact, they have sparked every single act of aggression in the lore since vanilla.

And I told you that you are completely wrong about Teldrassil being genocide for two reasons. One, the majority of the elves escaped Teldrassil before it was too late. For two, if it was genocide then Sylvanas would have continued marching south wiping out every single Kaldorei settlement she saw. Because once again, genocide is the systematic eradication of a group of people. She didn't do that and therefore it doesn't fit the parameters of genocide.

I will continue to dismiss what you say if you continue to be wrong. It's that simple.

[VladlTutushkin]

I never once said the Horde was innocent so stop being overdramatic. I even said it was a tragedy. You're just upset that I won't call it a genocide. The reason I won't is because it doesn't fit the parameters OF genocide. The Alliance does NOT forgive and forget. As a matter of fact, they have sparked every single act of aggression in the lore since vanilla.

And I told you that you are completely wrong about Teldrassil being genocide for two reasons. One, the majority of the elves escaped Teldrassil before it was too late. For two, if it was genocide then Sylvanas would have continued marching south wiping out every single Kaldorei settlement she saw. Because once again, genocide is the systematic eradication of a group of people. She didn't do that and therefore it doesn't fit the parameters of genocide.

I will continue to dismiss what you say if you continue to be wrong. It's that simple.

And you will continue to be wrong as long as you dismiss what dosent fit your bias.

And there arent any elven settlements left on Kalimdor aside from maybe Nordrassil which is neutral ground and has horde people living there and Feathermoon Stronghold that most likely was empty after the war since Sentinels left to fight on Darkshore.

[TheRevenantHero]

And you will continue to be wrong as long as you dismiss what dosent fit your bias.

And there arent any elven settlements left on Kalimdor aside from maybe Nordrassil which is neutral ground and has horde people living there and Feathermoon Stronghold that most likely was empty after the war since Sentinels left to fight on Darkshore.

If you're going to keep putting words in my mouth, I'm not gonna respond anymore. Nothing about what I said is based in bias at all. Just because you don't know what the parameters of genocide are doesn't mean I'm biased.

And the fact that you're saying there's no other settlements just shows you me you pick and choose parts of the lore or simply don't read it at all.

[VladlTutushkin]

If you're going to keep putting words in my mouth, I'm not gonna respond anymore. Nothing about what I said is based in bias at all. Just because you don't know what the parameters of genocide are doesn't mean I'm biased.

And the fact that you're saying there's no other settlements just shows you me you pick and choose parts of the lore or simply don't read it at all.

What other settlements are left? Because Ashenvale and Dakrshore are done for and according to that plot (again) majority of elves moved to Ashenvale and Dakshore so we can assume that they abandoned their homes outside of those borders.

[Coconut]

And you will continue to be wrong as long as you dismiss what dosent fit your bias.

And there arent any elven settlements left on Kalimdor aside from maybe Nordrassil which is neutral ground and has horde people living there and Feathermoon Stronghold that most likely was empty after the war since Sentinels left to fight on Darkshore.

This whole discussion reminds me of an embarrassing moment from my childhood.

We were in the first year of kindergarten, must've been around 5 years old at most, and we had a Christmas play. I don't remember exactly what the story was, but it was about forest animals and Santa, and the baddie was the Sly Fox, who had some sort of Grinchian role, trying to steal all the presents. I was considered the smartest kid in the class, so the kindergarten teacher had me playing Santa, while the Fox role was assigned to a girl with red hair. Aside from my role in the story, I was also to give the little forest animals gifts at the end (which were the actual gifts from the kindergarten to us). It all went well, only when I got to the little girl who played the Fox, I vehemently refused to give her a gift, on account of her being "naughty" and "not deserving" one. She almost burst into tears, and the teacher had to come over and explain to me that it was all just a story, and the little girl wasn't really bad (and Santa would have forgiven the Fox anyway).

But, you know, I was 5. What excuse do Alliance fanboys have? What is the point of trying to "prove" to Horde fans that their faction is bad? Do you think the majority of them, who enjoy it on the back of its Warcraft III portrayal (which also applies to Sylvanas) like it when their faction and characters get villain batted? Do you think those who embrace the villain flavor pushed onto them by Blizzard - because you know how it goes, when life gives you lemons... - are actually bad people in real life, and undeserving of fun? Do you think the blatant whitewashing of the Alliance, such as turning Genn Greymane - a dude who left the Alliance because Terenas wouldn't genocide the Orcs, built a wall that cut off an entire district of his kingdom, did fuck all to help Azeroth during one Legion and two Scourge invasions, and authorized and partook in worgen hunts while keeping a secret the fact that he himself was one - into a kindly and forgiving grandfather, or the haphazard minimalization of Garithos's involvement with the Alliance (10 years after his story played out, mind you), is solid ground for grandstanding? Do you think it's something that Horde fans should just accept with a straight face?

It's not our fault that Blizzard writes the Alliance boring. I, for one, would love it if they made it more interesting, as I play both factions and story is story. You shouldn't need to piss on the Horde to make yourselves feel better.

[VladlTutushkin]

This whole discussion reminds me of an embarrassing moment from my childhood.

We were in the first year of kindergarten, must've been around 5 years old at most, and we had a Christmas play. I don't remember exactly what the story was, but it was about forest animals and Santa, and the baddie was the Sly Fox, who had some sort of Grinchian role, trying to steal all the presents. I was considered the smartest kid in the class, so the kindergarten teacher had me playing Santa, while the Fox role was assigned to a girl with red hair. Aside from my role in the story, I was also to give the little forest animals gifts at the end (which were the actual gifts from the kindergarten to us). It all went well, only when I got to the little girl who played the Fox, I vehemently refused to give her a gift, on account of her being "naughty" and "not deserving" one. She almost burst into tears, and the teacher had to come over and explain to me that it was all just a story, and the little girl wasn't really bad (and Santa would have forgiven the Fox anyway).

But, you know, I was 5. What excuse do Alliance fanboys have? What is the point of trying to "prove" to Horde fans that their faction is bad? Do you think the majority of them, who enjoy it on the back of its Warcraft III portrayal (which also applies to Sylvanas) like it when their faction and characters get villain batted? Do you think those who embrace the villain flavor pushed onto them by Blizzard - because you know how it goes, when life gives you lemons... - are actually bad people in real life, and undeserving of fun? Do you think the blatant whitewashing of the Alliance, such as turning Genn Greymane - a dude who left the Alliance because Terenas wouldn't genocide the Orcs, built a wall that cut off an entire district of his kingdom, did fuck all to help Azeroth during one Legion and two Scourge invasions, and authorized and partook in worgen hunts while keeping a secret the fact that he himself was one - into a kindly and forgiving grandfather, or the haphazard minimalization of Garithos's involvement with the Alliance (10 years after his story played out, mind you), is solid ground for grandstanding? Do you think it's something that Horde fans should just accept with a straight face?

It's not our fault that Blizzard writes the Alliance boring. I, for one, would love it if they made it more interesting, as I play both factions and story is story. You shouldn't need to piss on the Horde to make yourselves feel better.

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried but let me explain. I would love for factions to be equal in moral standing. Be either equally good or equally bad. Make horde as it was in Warcraft 3 or make Alliance go as far and as eagerly as horde did in BfA. BUT we obviously cant have that due to Blizzard being horde biased and not wanting to write Alliance dishing out any pain to the horde or being too mean to them, heh. So, i will and i simply put HAVE TO (for no feasible alternative otherwise) enjoy my shining and pristine moral goodness and extend and hand of help to brothers our lesser in the horde.
See what i am talking about?

[Coconut]

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried but let me explain. I would love for factions to be equal in moral standing. Be either equally good or equally bad. Make horde as it was in Warcraft 3 or make Alliance go as far and as eagerly as horde did in BfA. BUT we obviously cant have that due to Blizzard being horde biased and not wanting to write Alliance dishing out any pain to the horde or being too mean to them, heh. So, i will and i simply put HAVE TO (for no feasible alternative otherwise) enjoy my shining and pristine moral goodness and extend and hand of help to brothers our lesser in the horde.
See what i am talking about?

I strongly disagree that there is any sort of Horde favoritism in terms of how the story plays out. I'm not sure how many Horde players felt "favored" in BFA. They villain batted one of our last remaining classic racial heroes, retroactively turned Vol'jin into an idiot and undermined Shadowhunter lore by invalidating his only important act after becoming Warchief, completely nuked the flavor of the Forsaken, turned Baine and Saurfang into less than they used to be, and killed off two interesting Horde second tier heroes in Saurfang and Nathanos. We are in shambles right now.

You lost Teldrassil, which was sad and all (I was a big Night Elf fan too), but it's ultimately a much smaller hit to general racial identity and major characters. The Night Elves lost nameless NPCs, but culturally they are more "themselves" than they've ever been, and Elune has finally entered play. Plus that their race is Life-aligned, so there is always hope of revival, and if that's not the case, they have another tree at Hyjal. The Forsaken cannot be what they used to be anymore without Sylvanas. At all (they also lost Val'kyrs and presumably the Blight from their racial repertoire).

[VladlTutushkin]

I strongly disagree that there is any sort of Horde favoritism in terms of how the story plays out. I'm not sure how many Horde players felt "favored" in BFA. They villain batted one of our last remaining classic racial heroes, retroactively turned Vol'jin into an idiot and undermined Shadowhunter lore by invalidating his only important act after becoming Warchief, completely nuked the flavor of the Forsaken, turned Baine and Saurfang into less than they used to be, and killed off two interesting Horde second tier heroes in Saurfang and Nathanos. We are in shambles right now.

You lost Teldrassil, which was sad and all (I was a big Night Elf fan too), but it's ultimately a much smaller hit to general racial identity and major characters. The Night Elves lost nameless NPCs, but culturally they are more "themselves" than they've ever been, and Elune has finally entered play. Plus that their race is Life-aligned, so there is always hope of revival, and if that's not the case, they have another tree at Hyjal. The Forsaken cannot be what they used to be anymore without Sylvanas. At all (they also lost Val'kyrs and presumably the Blight from their racial repertoire).

Have to disagree. If situation was reversed i would have reveled , simply put thrived in the event "aka Teldrassil" but against horde. I would have give anything for that, anything at all. Night elfs are in their lowest point and they were low since Cata as is. They are broken people, they will never get a meaningful revenge and their "figurehead" for "vengeful thinking" - Tyrande portrayed as horrible wrong and downright mentally unstable person who is NOT on a right side of a spectrum. While forgiveness and weakness shown as "better", brighter future which disgusts me.
Forsaken are also not in a good place but they were going strong for a long time, being a powerhouse which continuously stomped Alliance and prove their strength to all.
Night elves? Weak, trembling sissies uncapable of even self defence, refugees on the streets of human capital and ragged beggars scrambling for food and alms. Tired of war that didnt even lasted two full years and broken in spirit. Some so broken they actually join the horde - which btw was the ultimate insult. If not for that retarded "undead night elves" story i would have eventually recovered and moved on but now i just cant! That was too much.

[Coconut]

Have to disagree. If situation was reversed i would have reveled , simply put thrived in the event "aka Teldrassil" but against horde. I would have give anything for that, anything at all. Night elfs are in their lowest point and they were low since Cata as is. They are broken people, they will never get a meaningful revenge and their "figurehead" for "vengeful thinking" - Tyrande portrayed as horrible wrong and downright mentally unstable person who is NOT on a right side of a spectrum. While forgiveness and weakness shown as "better", brighter future which disgusts me.
Forsaken are also not in a good place but they were going strong for a long time, being a powerhouse which continuously stomped Alliance and prove their strength to all.
Night elves? Weak, trembling sissies uncapable of even self defence, refugees on the streets of human capital and ragged beggars scrambling for food and alms. Tired of war that didnt even lasted two full years and broken in spirit. Some so broken they actually join the horde - which btw was the ultimate insult. If not for that retarded "undead night elves" story i would have eventually recovered and moved on but now i just cant! That was too much.

This seems more like a you problem. You accuse Horde players of downplaying their faction's evil, when in fact what you actually want is an evil side to the Alliance. You envy us for what we hate. Personally, I'd support you; for a very long time I felt a lack of Alliance figures I could actually enjoy hating. Closest were Wrath-Cata era Varian and Genn until they started the whitewashing, but he was never major. Most Horde players don't actually want to simply stick it to the Alliance, they want to fight for their right to live against xenophobic assholes like Daelin and Garithos.

I certainly don't see most Horde "reveling" in what was done to the Night Elves. If it was Humans or Worgen, sure. Or if the Night Elves had provoked us more visibly in game. But we've helped the Night Elves countless times, they were one of the most represented neutral races, with several Night Elf themed factions throughout most expansions, as well as leveling neutral hubs, the most recent of which had come right before in Legion. In game, there was a hell of a lot more projected friendship with the NElves than rivalry.

Oh, and I am 100% sure that the Night Elves will bounce back. Likely with the help of Tyrande. You need to be in a dark place for the recovery to feel more meaningful, and she is only vengeful now so it will feel meaningful when she lets it go so she can help her people.

[bagina]

Night elfs are in their lowest point and they were low since Cata as is. They are broken people, they will never get a meaningful revenge and their "figurehead" for "vengeful thinking" Tyrande portrayed as horrible wrong and downright mentally unstable person who is NOT on a right side of a spectrum.

Oh hey, now you know how Forsaken have felt since Vanilla. Empathy hurray!

Alliance version of the events is the canon one and that's the biggest proof of bias as far as I'm concerned, because it's where it actually matters. The rest is irrelevant. Imagine playing Horde, you're presented with an inaccurate story.

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh hey, now you know how Forsaken have felt since Vanilla. Empathy hurray!

Alliance version of the events is the canon one and that's the biggest proof of bias as far as I'm concerned, because it's where it actually matters. The rest is irrelevant. Imagine playing Horde, you're presented with an inaccurate story.

Forsaken were not portrayed as "wrong" for being vengeful and cruel until very recently. They were always "super deth metul" and pretty much endorsed by devs in their "mischief". Night elfs are not even close to that. They were always a battered housewives of Alliance and now cant even be spiteful about that without being shown as crazy.

- - - Updated - - -

This seems more like a you problem. You accuse Horde players of downplaying their faction's evil, when in fact what you actually want is an evil side to the Alliance. You envy us for what we hate. Personally, I'd support you; for a very long time I felt a lack of Alliance figures I could actually enjoy hating. Closest were Wrath-Cata era Varian and Genn until they started the whitewashing, but he was never major. Most Horde players don't actually want to simply stick it to the Alliance, they want to fight for their right to live against xenophobic assholes like Daelin and Garithos.

I certainly don't see most Horde "reveling" in what was done to the Night Elves. If it was Humans or Worgen, sure. Or if the Night Elves had provoked us more visibly in game. But we've helped the Night Elves countless times, they were one of the most represented neutral races, with several Night Elf themed factions throughout most expansions, as well as leveling neutral hubs, the most recent of which had come right before in Legion. In game, there was a hell of a lot more projected friendship with the NElves than rivalry.

Oh, and I am 100% sure that the Night Elves will bounce back. Likely with the help of Tyrande. You need to be in a dark place for the recovery to feel more meaningful, and she is only vengeful now so it will feel meaningful when she lets it go so she can help her people.

They WERE in dark places since Cata when they got painted as [unching bags for the horde and left hanging. There was no need to push as far as a genocide/extinction level event/huge overdramatic tragedy for that. And they CANT bounce back. To bounce back they should at least reconquer Ashenvale in a bloody campaign the scale of War of Thorns and then become basically "Forsaken of the Alliance" in terms of how much they hate and antagonise (and win) against the enemy faction which is obviously impossible. Just "moving on" will not be bouncing back, it will be wiping the jizz off your face and sulking into shadows. Plus Tyrande is either dead meat or will revert to Anduinism by the end of expansion. Or at the very best just remain passive-aggressive towards the horde without doing anything about it.

[Coconut]

They WERE in dark places since Cata when they got painted as [unching bags for the horde and left hanging. There was no need to push as far as a genocide/extinction level event/huge overdramatic tragedy for that. And they CANT bounce back. To bounce back they should at least reconquer Ashenvale in a bloody campaign the scale of War of Thorns and then become basically "Forsaken of the Alliance" in terms of how much they hate and antagonise (and win) against the enemy faction which is obviously impossible. Just "moving on" will not be bouncing back, it will be wiping the jizz off your face and sulking into shadows. Plus Tyrande is either dead meat or will revert to Anduinism by the end of expansion. Or at the very best just remain passive-aggressive towards the horde without doing anything about it.

I can agree the story beats for the Night Elves in BFA were poor and offensive to their fans, but the exact same thing applies to the Forsaken and Sylvanas. Yet you think Sylvanas fans should't complain just because the character they used to like "won" a battle in the process of being villain batted and lost to them. We should speak with one voice on the story, not argue.

And do you want to talk about extinction events? The Blood Elves would like to say hello. They lost 90% of their population to the Scourge, then what was left was split between Horde, Kael'thas and the wretched, then they were on the front lines in Icecrown, then Jaina and the Silver Covenant killed a bunch of them in Dalaran and IoT, they sent forces to AU Shattrath and Argus, and then they lost a good chunk of what they had left to Alliance defection. Yeah, no, the Night Elves will bounce back, don't you worry. And by that I mean population-wise, you don't need to own the whole of northern Kalimdor to feel good about your faction, although I would approve of a more heavily Night Elf themed Ashenvale, even if we don't get to quest there anymore.

[VladlTutushkin]

I can agree the story beats for the Night Elves in BFA were poor and offensive to their fans, but the exact same thing applies to the Forsaken and Sylvanas. Yet you think Sylvanas fans should't complain just because the character they used to like "won" a battle in the process of being villain batted and lost to them. We should speak with one voice on the story, not argue.

And do you want to talk about extinction events? The Blood Elves would like to say hello. They lost 90% of their population to the Scourge, then what was left was split between Horde, Kael'thas and the wretched, then they were on the front lines in Icecrown, then Jaina and the Silver Covenant killed a bunch of them in Dalaran and IoT, they sent forces to AU Shattrath and Argus, and then they lost a good chunk of what they had left to Alliance defection. Yeah, no, the Night Elves will bounce back, don't you worry. And by that I mean population-wise, you don't need to own the whole of northern Kalimdor to feel good about your faction, although I would approve of a more heavily Night Elf themed Ashenvale, even if we don't get to quest there anymore.

Ashenvale is a must for any attempt to reanimate broken and humiliated race. It either that or all of them dying in an attempt to reclaim it and dish horde some punishment because living in humiliation by now is too much to bear. And yes, population wise they might recover but i want to remind you that Scourge is all but dealt with (and will be dealt with post Shadowlands entirely) and Arthas, main architect of their misery is dead, defeated by forces of both factions and now suffers endlessly in the Maw. But the fact that he is dead is good enough imho. Night elfs cant claim that because horde will never be put to a same axe as Scourge was obviously since thats a playable faction and sylvanas will get a cheesy redemption story. And again - Ashenvale must be entirely night elven or the race must cease to be because thats what defines them and makes them what they are, they are land bound race, their pride stakes on defending their land and that what Blizz kept shattering again and again.