Superman & Lois

[Beloren]

Really? You think Man of Steel Superman is the "most powerful" incarnation of Superman?

He's not even the most powerful live-action Superman.

The Reeves/Routh Superman is much more powerful.

He reversed the flow of time to save Lois.

He lifted an entire island made out of Kryptonite, threw it into space, and crashed back to earth in a weakened condition and survived.

Cavill Superman got his ass kicked by Batman with a Kryptonite Spear. And then stupidly charged Doomsday with that same Kryptonite Spear...when he could have just handed it to WW.

i'm sorry, it all pales in comparison to how badass he seemed in Dawn of Justice and Justice League, for the first time in all the superman incarnations I have watched, he actually felt invincible and the most powerful superhero in the universe.

No other incarnation has made me feel that so strongly. And I have watched every superman movie and series including the 90s Lois & Clarke, and all of Smallville. But then one of the strengths of the Snyder movies was how real they made the world feel.

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Did you forget the "wall-building vision" power the Superman of old had? And how he was so fast to run around the planet multiple times in the span of a few seconds, fast enough to make the Earth rotation to go in reverse and go back in time?

No, but then you just attribute those more abstract abilities that we have no real measure or feel for, to all superman, as part of their powers. how the filmmakers make superman feel powerful in a relatable - never felt anything like it, as I did when I watched Cavil in the 4 movies.

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He's the first Superman that was relatable. The others...not so much.

Yeh, exactly, I liked that a lot, and valued it, even though I preferred the optimism and lighter touch of the earlier movies. Because of that I'd still take Cavil's Superman over the others

[Ivanstone]

He's the first Superman that was relatable. The others...not so much.

Superman is completely relatable. Do you not like Truth, Justice and the Canadian Way?

Much more relatable than being some malignant sociopath who squanders his intellectual prowess and immense wealth on beating up low level criminals in the middle of the night.

[Kyphael]

Looks good, and it's refreshing they'll be telling stories from a different time period in Superman's life: after marrying Lois, instead of recycling the old stories OVER, and OVER, telling his origin coming to Earth, growing up, meeting Lois, saving Lois, fighting Zod/Luthor, etc. The actor is no Cavil but he's growing on me and the potential for stories has me intrigued.

Jonathan Kent I know from the comics (Superboy) but is Jordan a made up character for the show?

Villains I look forward to seeing on the show, if done proper: Brainiac, Metallo, Parasite, Lobo, Ultraman, Toyman and Maxima.

Please, no Luthor, Zod, or Doomsday. Zack Snyder ruined Doomsday for life for me, and Zod/Luthor have been done to DEATH, and the only good Luthor ever was Michael Rosenbaum.

[Monster Hunter]

An impossible Task. There is no one media company that sums up the American Arts. Nor is there one for Europe.

Not really, cultures are what they are and there are commonalities and generalities that can be drawn. There are things the define french art for example, japanes art, chinese, e.t.c, yes there are exceptions that break the mould and it does change over time, but art is ultimatly a reflection of a society and art can often be seen and used as a chronology of a society mood and perceptions, the rise and fall of rome and its refelction in romes artististic produce is well enough studied to show this is so

But modern american art can be fairly summed up currently as vapid, its devoid of substance and meaning, its deeply fake, bland, dull, Its the cornflakes of art.

Its a product of a corpratised arts industry, rife and riddled with nepatism, of a society with an artisticly enfranchised upper class, offset by an artisticly disenfranchised lower class, made all the worse by a society who half wants to be more inclusive but whos other half, and that arts industry is by its core founded on exclusion and elitism.

So what we get from america, is vapid, generic bland narratives, superimposed with marketability and slogans, with either blatent tokenism or worse overt sterotyping, force fed to us my the American media monopoly as art....

John Boyega touched on much of this in his scathing attack on Disney this year and its blatent use of him as a "token" black guy to sell tickets, and yet remarkably though his role was deliberately stifled, he was by far the best character and best actor in those movies. He did what he could and made some success dispite what he was there to be and dispite terrible American writing, but thats not how things should be.

[Kyphael]

Superman is completely relatable. Do you not like Truth, Justice and the Canadian Way?

Much more relatable than being some malignant sociopath who squanders his intellectual prowess and immense wealth on beating up low level criminals in the middle of the night.

I see your point, but to be fair, Batman focuses on getting the big fish like Ra's Al Ghul and Joker. Low level criminals get beat up in the crossfire. His crusade is also to save as many people as possible, including 9 year-old boys in alleys who might become orphaned, and Bruce Wayne is pretty charitable with his money during the daytime. Batman being human does more for his city than any superhero I can think of, Superman included all things considered.

[Beloren]

Looks good, and it's refreshing they'll be telling stories from a different time period in Superman's life: after marrying Lois, instead of recycling the old stories OVER, and OVER, telling his origin coming to Earth, growing up, meeting Lois, saving Lois, fighting Zod/Luthor, etc. The actor is no Cavil but he's growing on me and the potential for stories has me intrigued.

Jonathan Kent I know from the comics (Superboy) but is Jordan a made up character for the show?

Villains I look forward to seeing on the show, if done proper: Brainiac, Metallo, Parasite, Lobo, Ultraman, Toyman and Maxima.

Please, no Luthor, Zod, or Doomsday. Zack Snyder ruined Doomsday for life for me, and Zod/Luthor have been done to DEATH, and the only good Luthor ever was Michael Rosenbaum.

Yes, I'm very curious about Jordan - if new, that would be an exciting development that those of the comics can't predict.

And yes, I also like that it is from a different time period of Superman's life.. i think this is what these shows should be exploring if they go to the traditional heroes, rather than the re-hash of Superman in the usual stage which is what the movies do, and Lois & Clarke -t he 90s show did. Smallville was refreshing for looking at early superman, teenage clarke, but now we see a part no one has ever done on the screen yet.

It's almost a shame it's the CW, cos we know how cheesy it can be.

[Nihilist74]

I don't know, but since Cavill, I just can't see anyone else in that role and take him seriously...
Doesn't help that this looks campy as all hell.

I agree that Henry Cavill was a good superman along with Christopher Reeves.
This looks like a horrible version of superman geared for teenagers to watch.
Even when I was a teenager, I hated stuff that was made for teenagers.

[Egomaniac]

i'm sorry, it all pales in comparison to how badass he seemed in Dawn of Justice and Justice League, for the first time in all the superman incarnations I have watched, he actually felt invincible and the most powerful superhero in the universe.

No other incarnation has made me feel that so strongly. And I have watched every superman movie and series including the 90s Lois & Clarke, and all of Smallville. But then one of the strengths of the Snyder movies was how real they made the world feel.

Specifically, what did Superman actually do in those movies that made you think he was more powerful? How was he "invincible" when he quite literally dies at the end of BvS? Wonder Woman is far more impressive fighting Doomsday than Superman is.

I mean, you're just objectively wrong here. Snyderverse Superman is nowhere near as powerful as Reeves/Routh. Reeves Superman breaks physics. Routh Superman lifts an entire island made up of the one thing that makes him weak, falls miles to Earth, and survives...even though he's still in a weakened condition. That's what Invincibility actually looks like. Cavill Superman gets exposed to just a little bit of Kryptonite...and gets Batmanhandled. The only thing that saves him is the very convenient coincidence that both Bruce's mother was also named Martha.

[Ivanstone]

I see your point, but to be fair, Batman focuses on getting the big fish like Ra's Al Ghul and Joker. Low level criminals get beat up in the crossfire. His crusade is also to save as many people as possible, including 9 year-old boys in alleys who might become orphaned, and Bruce Wayne is pretty charitable with his money during the daytime. Batman being human does more for his city than any superhero I can think of, Superman included all things considered.

Correction: Big Fish like Ra's Al Ghul and Joker focus on Batman while he beats up low level criminals in the middle of the night. They came because of Batman not the other way around.

Further, Gotham is a shithole and has been for 80 years. His "charity" isn't working.

[eschatological]

Really? You think Man of Steel Superman is the "most powerful" incarnation of Superman?

He's not even the most powerful live-action Superman.

The Reeves/Routh Superman is much more powerful.

He reversed the flow of time to save Lois.

He lifted an entire island made out of Kryptonite, threw it into space, and crashed back to earth in a weakened condition and survived.

Cavill Superman got his ass kicked by Batman with a Kryptonite Spear. And then stupidly charged Doomsday with that same Kryptonite Spear...when he could have just handed it to WW.

While previous Supermans (Supermen?) had higher power levels....MoS's Superman literally felt like a benevolent god mucking about among ants.

His solemnity, the weight of his responsibility, the depth of his emotion all made him far more badass than Reeves/Routh. I honestly felt like he was like the legend of St. Christopher, with the weight of the world truly on his shoulder. Or Atlas. Routh/Reeves's two depictions come off as almost plastic and fake in comparison - and that's not their fault, it's a product of those times.

Snyder is all about Ayn Rand-ian solemn individuals, and while I can't agree with the quality of his storytelling or directing, I think the characterization of his characters is almost always spot on.

[Egomaniac]

While previous Supermans (Supermen?) had higher power levels....MoS's Superman literally felt like a benevolent god mucking about among ants.

The discussion was about the actual power levels on display...not Snyder's desire to make SuperJesus.

His solemnity, the weight of his responsibility, the depth of his emotion all made him far more badass than Reeves/Routh

Superman isn't a badass. He's a boyscout. And the only emotion he had on display was anger. With the Reeves/Routh Superman...you could feel the love he had for the world and his desire to protect it. Snyder's Clark is mostly disinterested in humanity for the majority of Man of Steel.

Snyder is all about Ayn Rand-ian solemn individuals, and while I can't agree with the quality of his storytelling or directing, I think the characterization of his characters is almost always spot on.

There is very little that is Rand-ian about Superman. And trying to Square Peg that Round hole is where everything falls apart in MoS. When I saw Superman leave his father to die because saving him might compromise his secret....I checked right out of the movie.

And then you have Batman mutilating and murdering people.

[Beloren]

Specifically, what did Superman actually do in those movies that made you think he was more powerful? How was he "invincible" when he quite literally dies at the end of BvS? Wonder Woman is far more impressive fighting Doomsday than Superman is.

I mean, you're just objectively wrong here. Snyderverse Superman is nowhere near as powerful as Reeves/Routh. Reeves Superman breaks physics. Routh Superman lifts an entire island made up of the one thing that makes him weak, falls miles to Earth, and survives...even though he's still in a weakened condition. That's what Invincibility actually looks like. Cavill Superman gets exposed to just a little bit of Kryptonite...and gets Batmanhandled. The only thing that saves him is the very convenient coincidence that both Bruce's mother was also named Martha.

I know it's weird isn't it, especially when Reeves Superman did more amazing feats, and this Superman actually dies, still, that encounter when the other super heroes try to take him on, he felt like Superman, I d on't know how the director did it, but he did, that guy flet more badass and invincible than all the others.

Perhaps because he showed it in a reltable way, whereas reversing time and lifting ice islands are a little bit more abstract, and to be fair, you atuomatically associate those things with ALL the Supermans - I don't know what it is, he just feels more invincible than the lot, yet at the same time a vulnerability that makes him feel more real than all of them.

Can't quite explain it.

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While previous Supermans (Supermen?) had higher power levels....MoS's Superman literally felt like a benevolent god mucking about among ants.

His solemnity, the weight of his responsibility, the depth of his emotion all made him far more badass than Reeves/Routh. I honestly felt like he was like the legend of St. Christopher, with the weight of the world truly on his shoulder. Or Atlas. Routh/Reeves's two depictions come off as almost plastic and fake in comparison - and that's not their fault, it's a product of those times.

Snyder is all about Ayn Rand-ian solemn individuals, and while I can't agree with the quality of his storytelling or directing, I think the characterization of his characters is almost always spot on.

Yeh.. this. Definitely this.. Nice way of putting it. The others felt almost plastic/fake in comparison

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The discussion was about the actual power levels on display...not Snyder's desire to make SuperJesus.



Superman isn't a badass. He's a boyscout. And the only emotion he had on display was anger. With the Reeves/Routh Superman...you could feel the love he had for the world and his desire to protect it. Snyder's Clark is mostly disinterested in humanity for the majority of Man of Steel.

I know that's opinion, and how we feel about it is also subjective, but hate the movies all you want, the Cavil superman comes across as the most realistic but also most powerful of the Supermans. HE felt more Superman than any ohter incarnation so far and yet felt more real too without losing any of his vulnerabilities. Eschatological explains it well.

[Shadowferal]

Seeing Cavill's Superman...his eyes tracking the Flash's movements..

[Egomaniac]

I know that's opinion, and how we feel about it is also subjective, but hate the movies all you want, the Cavil superman comes across as the most realistic but also most powerful of the Supermans. HE felt more Superman than any ohter incarnation so far and yet felt more real too without losing any of his vulnerabilities. Eschatological explains it well.

And yet you can't come up with a single example of why he feels more powerful...

Eschatological admits that Cavill's Superman is weaker than the other incarnations.

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That scene was the only good one, imo.

Wish that movie had been better...

That scene...and the scene where Batman tells Flash to save one person.

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I liked the Routh Superman movie... but I also like Cavill as Superman because they weakened him a bit and made him more vulnerable. A big part of why the character is so boring, is because of how powerful he is.

I don't wanna get too much into the subjective nature of which Superman people prefer.

I'm talking about objective displays of power...which you seem to agree with me on. Reeves/Routh Superman was more powerful.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I thought his name was Jason and he had Asthma

[eschatological]

There is very little that is Rand-ian about Superman. And trying to Square Peg that Round hole is where everything falls apart in MoS. When I saw Superman leave his father to die because saving him might compromise his secret....I checked right out of the movie.

And then you have Batman mutilating and murdering people.

Zach Snyder is a very big fan of Ayn Rand. And both the Superman and Batman he created are Rand-ian in nature. She has this idea of heroic men who bear responsibility in a very toxic way, and will do anything and everything to remain "heroic," which ends up being a sham and an illusion (not to Rand, but any other objective observer). That Superman let his dad die is very Rand-esque Objectivism. So is Batman's brutal efficiency in killing bad guys.

....it's why he totally missed the point of Watchmen when he remade that movie.

[Egomaniac]

Zach Snyder is a very big fan of Ayn Rand. And both the Superman and Batman he created are Rand-ian in nature. She has this idea of heroic men who bear responsibility in a very toxic way, and will do anything and everything to remain "heroic," which ends up being a sham and an illusion (not to Rand, but any other objective observer). That Superman let his dad die is very Rand-esque Objectivism. So is Batman's brutal efficiency in killing bad guys.

....it's why he totally missed the point of Watchmen when he remade that movie.

I agree with that...It's just that the characters themselves are not Randian in nature.

He missed the point in Watchmen...and he missed the point of Superman

[Beloren]

And yet you can't come up with a single example of why he feels more powerful...

Eschatological admits that Cavill's Superman is weaker than the other incarnations.

I did , if you read all I said. Tried to in the best way i could.

[Egomaniac]

I did , if you read all I said. Tried to in the best way i could.

No you didn't. You just said that he feels more powerful...but couldn't cite a single of example of him actually being more powerful. Him being more powerful than the rest of the Justice League does not make him more powerful than previous incarnations.

[Beloren]

No you didn't. You just said that he feels more powerful...but couldn't cite a single of example of him actually being more powerful. Him being more powerful than the rest of the Justice League does not make him more powerful than previous incarnations.

I said so here:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52849997

I know it's weird isn't it, especially when Reeves Superman did more amazing feats, and this Superman actually dies, still, that encounter when the other super heroes try to take him on, he felt like Superman, I d on't know how the director did it, but he did, that guy flet more badass and invincible than all the others.

Perhaps because he showed it in a reltable way, whereas reversing time and lifting ice islands are a little bit more abstract, and to be fair, you atuomatically associate those things with ALL the Supermans - I don't know what it is, he just feels more invincible than the lot, yet at the same time a vulnerability that makes him feel more real than all of them.

Can't quite explain it.

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Yeh.. this. Definitely this.. Nice way of putting it. The others felt almost plastic/fake in comparison

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I know that's opinion, and how we feel about it is also subjective, but hate the movies all you want, the Cavil superman comes across as the most realistic but also most powerful of the Supermans. HE felt more Superman than any ohter incarnation so far and yet felt more real too without losing any of his vulnerabilities. Eschatological explains it well.

I've bolded it for you - does that help?


Dunno what else to say - I quite clearly said I can't explain it, I gave the example that mad me feel or rather captured how powerful he was, a true man of steel. I tried to explain that it is the way the director portrayed him that feels more real and more powerful. And I pointed out Eschatological's comment of how plastic/fake the others felt which is why while they were very powerful, they don't come across quite as well.

See I attribute the abilities of every superman to every superman, so if Reeves/Routh Superman can lift Islands, so can all the others, it's not the power potential of superman, the comics show him doing many more feats than all the movies and tv shows, but the MoS Cavill Superman in the 4 more movies he appears in comes across as the most powerful and genuine of the lot.