"Only the top 1% will pick covenants based on performance" :S

[Accendor]

Can someone explain to me why so many people think that "optimal" and "fun" are exclusive? The most optimal covenant/talent/stat/whatever is also the most fun almost every single time. It's optimal because it complements the class better than the alternative and just "flows" better than everything else.

Stop telling me that I'm optimizing the fun out of the game, when my choice is obviously the most fun by default.

I'll be completely honest here, for all the chars I checked (Havoc, BM, Prot/Fury Warrior, Prot/Retri) the most fun (for me) ability does not match the strongest one and most of the time also both of them are not the ones I would have picked for asthetics or lore.

[Lolites]

Yes, I do know, it's performance. It's not aesthetics or roleplaying because those simply don't make sense. Warlocks and faeries/angels - those are the complete opposites and don't go together a single bit.

thats highly subjective...
and performance and theme are NOT the only criteria... some people literaly choose based on set or mount or side activity, or secondary ability, or if they like the clas ability, not necesary if its "best"...

[Xath]

It's really as simple as this. As long as people keep sticking to the idea that getting an extra 2% theoretical damage output from a covenant ability will fix the vastly higher damage penalty that comes from having an incompetent rotation and not using skills properly, this will always be a problem.

If it was a 2% difference it would be fine but it's ranging up to 20% and in some cases even more. It's actually a dps loss for some classes to use their covenant ability the "balance" is laughable.

[vlange]

How do you know they only picked that covenant based on performance? Did you ask every single person with matching "top covenant"? I ended up with Night Fae as fire mage just because I understood why it's so great and because I was ok with it's aesthetics. I was thinking about necrolord because the abilities and special building functions sounded cool, but I didn't pick that one because I don't really like the looks. I didn't pick Kyrian because I really like how they look, but the ability didn't feel as great as Night Fae.

And no, it will not be top 1% who is trying to max their performance. It never is, it's just the top 1% who can actually convert those choice to actually max dps. I think it's even the other way around as casuals don't feel like reading into it and if they can't pick based on their feelings they'll just search for a recommendation and go with that. The top 1% should match the way they play their class to what best fits them and that does not always have to be that a cookie cutter template that's offered by guides. I'm not hardcore, semi-casual i'd say, and I try to read why guides suggest what's best and why other stuff is not good.

[Monster Hunter]

Meh i take the best performing covenant. I am not 1% and most people i know ingame are the same.

People should get away from the thinking, that just because you like to play with a covenant you like story wise EVERYONE should do it.
I like min/maxing. I don't care that much about the covenant story. It is an hour max story per week and probably will be done in a few weeks.

I can and i am allowed to min/max the shit out of the game no matter how good i play. And i am also allowed to not take you with me in a Mythic+ run if you are not optimized. Never looked it up for M0s for now. But if everything stays like this and i take an Ret pala for example i damn well make sure he has ashen hallow... just to good to pass it up.

You are also allowed to not care about it. I don't mind. But people should stop telling me how i am "supposed" to play the game.
I don#t give a flying f** about the story. I take what comes my way but if i watn good story i don't play wow. Never was its strong suite. Not even in classic. I go play a bioware/CDPR game or something.

Your confusing min/maxing with raw sim results.

Your ashen hallow example makes that clear, ashen hallow sims the highest on a specific fight, but it has a huge cooldown so its not min/max for content like m+.

The most optimal covenant for ret palas in m+ is kyrian as its up every fight, if your gonna be selective based on that stuff, at least get it right.

[burek]

Again supposition. I know someone who's into hardcore Death and Black Metal who's also into Hello Kitty and My Little Pony. You cannot account for human nature or preference.

One idiotic example doesn't account for 85%. Human nature and preference in this case was obviously to read a guide and pick what's best performance wise.

So what, in your mind, all Warlocks must choose Necrolord because, again, in your mind, that makes thematic sense? Get the fuck out of here, dude. You have no idea why Warlocks are choosing Night Fae.

I do. It's because the guides said the best overall covenant for warlocks is the faerie one. They also said the worst one is vampires, and look, only 10% chose the vampires. The percentages match the guides perfectly, both overall and on spec by spec basis.

[VinceVega]

Your confusing min/maxing with raw sim results.

Your ashen hallow example makes that clear, ashen hallow sims the highest on a specific fight, but it has a huge cooldown so its not min/max for content like m+.

The most optimal covenant for ret palas in m+ is kyrian as its up every fight, if your gonna be selective based on that stuff, at least get it right.

Not if you pull big. *shrug*

[Shedaar]

If someone says that Rogues who have to pick Night Fae and Kyrian (instead of, I don't know, Venthyr/Necro that suit the fantasy better), DEMON (!) hunters that have to pick Kyrian or Night Fae, or Shamans that have to pick Necro or Venthyr is a"choice" and "fits the aesthetic of the class" then trust me, you are beyond saving at this point.

[Malania]

One idiotic example doesn't account for 85%. Human nature and preference in this case was obviously to read a guide and pick what's best performance wise.



I do. It's because the guides said the best overall covenant for warlocks is the faerie one. They also said the worst one is vampires, and look, only 10% chose the vampires. The percentages match the guides perfectly, both overall and on spec by spec basis.

No it doesn't, but it is supporting evidence to the opposite while you've offered **** all other than a figure pulled out of your ass with a biased statement to support assumptions. Come back when you have evidence.

[Incarnia]

I am not a 1%, and would by many be considered a casual player now a days. I 98% of the time pick the performance option (my strengths/weakness as a player is considered when making the performance choice. If I can't optimally pull off what sims the highest, another choice could be what's actually better to go with instead).
Why? Because I like playing the game this way. Always have.

[Super Kami Dende]

Who cares what other People are choosing. Use your own damn brain.

[deenman]

Makes sense, most of us play this game for fun - be silly to pick something you didn't enjoy. So picking your covenant on enjoyment is the sensible choice for most.

Of course - most players aren't sensible when it comes to entertainment

having fun is NOT the meta,players will always theorycraft and optimize the fun out of things,its blizzards job to avoid such situations

[VinceVega]

Your confusing min/maxing with raw sim results.

Your ashen hallow example makes that clear, ashen hallow sims the highest on a specific fight, but it has a huge cooldown so its not min/max for content like m+.

The most optimal covenant for ret palas in m+ is kyrian as its up every fight, if your gonna be selective based on that stuff, at least get it right.

But yes. You are right. Most of trhe cases Kyrian is better. Just had that in my head hat the moment. Shame on me

[deenman]

Who cares what other People are choosing. Use your own damn brain.

not that simple when everyone will avoid you like the plague if you picked the wrong thing

[Lochton]

Well, to be honest, I picked the best performance one for my Holy Paladin. I, on the other hand, picked Venthyr for my Outlaw rogue because it made it easier to get treasures and exploring.

[Shunai]

Well that's clearly not true. We can already see from the numbers, that most players clearly are picking covenants based on what performs best in raids and dungeons.

As an example, the vast majority of Rogue players are either Night Fae or Kyrian. And if you for some reason think that Rogues like to be fairies or ascended angle-creatures then you're absolutely delusional.

People are in general abusing the 99% vs 1% "argument" to create pictures of WoW which are clearly not true. WoW consists of many many different groups of players and most of them care about performance to some degree. The statistics clearly show this.

Why do you care the other people pick and for what reason they pick it? If you don't want to pick something for performance but pick something for the lore or what ever, do your thing.

[Relapses]

One idiotic example doesn't account for 85%. Human nature and preference in this case was obviously to read a guide and pick what's best performance wise.



I do. It's because the guides said the best overall covenant for warlocks is the faerie one. They also said the worst one is vampires, and look, only 10% chose the vampires. The percentages match the guides perfectly, both overall and on spec by spec basis.

There is more at question than just how the talent performs. There is how the talent feels to use. There is how the aesthetics of the Covenant mesh with any given players' personal preference. You, nor anybody else in this thread, cannot account for the individual choices of all players and it is disgustingly arrogant and impossibly intellectually dishonest to imply otherwise.

[Shakzor]

It's not only the top 1% that picks based on performance, but the top 1% are the only where those differences matter. The rest can increase their DPS way more than any covenant could, by getting better, but we all know that won't happen, as that requires more effort than complaining about "op covenants" or whatever

[burek]

No it doesn't, but it is supporting evidence to the opposite while you've offered **** all other than a figure pulled out of your ass with a biased statement to support assumptions. Come back when you have evidence.

One idiot is not evidence. We are talking about 85% here. The figures were in the OP of the thread that spawned this one. Here:

https://www.wowhead.com/news=319716/...-i#wowranks-io

But keep telling yourself that 85% is not a majority and that everyone is a roleplayer like you. And feel free to tell us all how those figures are wrong and skewed - just remember, it's 85%!!!!! affliction warlocks choosing fairies & angels - the completely opposing themes.

[Kuja]

I always use the covenant spreadsheet to see which covenant is bad for a spec, and avoid that one. And if there's a BIS, then choose that always.