The problem with Bastion

[Frontenac]

The topic of this post is that you can't just arbitrarily disassociate the character traits like unwavering faith/loyalty from the object from which they ultimately derive those traits. Devotion or faith isn't some abstract essentialist trait you simply find in people. It has to be evoked by very specific causes because it lies in the connections people form to things like family, nation, God, their King et cetera. Because of that, it's not interchangeable like the narrative of the game presents it to be.
If a character is faitfhul because they formed a strong bond to the Light in life then that faith isn't some essential property of the character but rather a function of their relationship to the Light.

And what we are saying is that faith has nothing to do with their assignation to Bastion. It's their selflessness, their drive to serve others, that the Kyrians want.

[Eapoe]

The topic of this post is that you can't just arbitrarily disassociate the character traits like unwavering faith/loyalty from the object from which they ultimately derive those traits. Devotion or faith isn't some abstract essentialist trait you simply find in people. It has to be evoked by very specific causes because it lies in the connections people form to things like family, nation, God, their King et cetera. Because of that, it's not interchangeable like the narrative of the game presents it to be.
If a character is faitfhul because they formed a strong bond to the Light in life then that faith isn't some essential property of the character but rather a function of their relationship to the Light.

But it isn’t about devotion or faith, it’s the unwavering ability to serve. That’s where the OP is wrong.
It’s even more laughable now that I’ve completed the quest line and it specifically states that Alexandros gets his strength from his memories, not that they are a burden. Meaning, he is not able to give them up and be able to ascend. His memories are what gives him the strength to serve, and without those he wouldn’t be able to do what needs done.
So again, to sum up, Bastion and the Kyrian have nothing to do with devotion and faith in a cause but the strict ability TO serve. What the servitude is about doesn’t matter.
There’s an argument being made that doesn’t exist. The OPs topic isn’t an issue because it doesn’t exist in the context of the game.

[Nerovar]

But it isn’t about devotion or faith, it’s the unwavering ability to serve. That’s where the OP is wrong.
It’s even more laughable now that I’ve completed the quest line and it specifically states that Alexandros gets his strength from his memories, not that they are a burden. Meaning, he is not able to give them up and be able to ascend. His memories are what gives him the strength to serve, and without those he wouldn’t be able to do what needs done.
So again, to sum up, Bastion and the Kyrian have nothing to do with devotion and faith in a cause but the strict ability TO serve. What the servitude is about doesn’t matter.
There’s an argument being made that doesn’t exist. The OPs topic isn’t an issue because it doesn’t exist in the context of the game.

This doesn't refute what I said because the concept of servitude is essentially the same thing as devotion/faith in this context. Uther's willingness to serve comes from his faith in the Light and his bond to his Kingdom and not from some weird innate property that makes him extremely submissive and servile. This entire notion is absolutely ridiculous.

[Tharivor]

Uh, I'm not so sure about that. Let's suppose Christians are right. If a Muslim ends up in Heaven and that it is manifest that Christianity was right and that Jesus is truly the Son of God, he will accept Him as His Savior. The reverse is true. There's no way of denying the truth when you are on the other side. So Uther, a servant of the Light discovers that the afterlife is not at all how he thought it was. He would cope with that reality. It's not like he has a choice.

But then in what way is the person "dedicated to a higher purpose" any more suited to Bastion than anyone else? If its just a matter of "eh, in time they'll realise all their past attachments were meaningless" then that would apply to basically anyone coming to the Shadowlands. In fact I would argue a person "dedicated to a higher purpose" would find it more difficult to accept that this purpose is now defunct and they have to devote themselves to an entirely different purpose, than someone who just wasn't so consumed by service.

Perhaps the devout muslim would come to accept Christ if he finds himself in Christian heaven, but he will have a lot more internal difficulty and shock accepting that he must abandon everything he previously dedicated his life to. However a lukewarm muslim would find it easier since he wasn't so ardently wedded to his old beliefs, so why shouldn't he just accept the new reality?.

Like I said having those most dedicated to service go to Bastion doesn't make sense unless its specifically those dedicated to serve things compatible with the things that Bastion serves. Otherwise said souls would find it more, not less, difficult to acclimatise to Bastion's cause.

They are dismissive because the Light holds no power in Bastion or even the Shadowlands. So it is useless to devote yourself to it.

Our characters are alive. They are dead.

Again, they are dead. There is no religion remaining, no Church of the Light, no cause and they can't use their powers. Instead of being eternally united with the Light, here they are, cut from it. So yeah, they would accept another cause to serve, with time. And the Kyrians do not serve the Archon, they serve the Purpose. Even the Archon serves the Purpose. And the Arbiter, and the caretakers of Oribos, and the Winter Queen, and the Primus. The Purpose is the higher cause of the Shadowlands.

I'm not sure about this. We don't see anything indicating that they are cut off from the Light and we can see in both Revendreth and Bastion that both the Light and Void have made their presence known in the past- its clearly not a metaphysically out-of-bounds area for them except insofar as the defenders of the Shadowlands violently repulse them.

But regardless yes, a person devoted to the Light could eventually be forced to come around. But again this would be a more, not less, difficult journey for them- especially in Bastion where they wouldn't even be allowed the leeway of maintaining their personal beliefs in private. Their "service to a higher purpose" is a bond that united them with that which they once served and thus acts as a form of attachment to their past life stronger than the attachments of someone who never really served anything strongly.

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And what we are saying is that faith has nothing to do with their assignation to Bastion. It's their selflessness, their drive to serve others, that the Kyrians want.

I think Nerevar in his most recent post hits on exactly what I'm trying to get at. People don't really have a "drive to serve" in an abstract sense- they serve something specific because they believe in that specific thing.

If I've dedicated my life to service to a religion/ideology/kingdom its not because I just loooove service and I had to choose something, anything, to serve. My desire to serve is born out of my conviction that the specific thing I'm serving is worth dedicating my life too. Its not clear to me just because someone served cause x in life they would be therefore more inclined to serve the Archon/Purpose in the Shadowlands.

I think you make a good point about selflessness and altruism- and maybe if the criteria was less "a life of service" or ""stalwart commitment to their duties" and more "a steadfast desire to help others" it would make more sense. But the impression being given is that its the principle of service and duty itself which makes someone worthy, which as I said doesn't make sense since if what you served isn't compatible with what the Kyrians serve you're going to be less, not more, willing to ascend.

Bastion should be a perfect place for someone like Tirion, who was willing to lay aside his religious and political allegiances in order to help another living thing. He has a dedicated to a higher purpose yes, but most importantly that purpose is something that can also be applied to what the Kyrians do in Bastion .i.e. helping all living things regardless of their race or creed.

But someone like Uther whose devotion was not just to "helping people" in general but was, by all accounts, a specific religious faith in the Light and the Church (hence why he consented to Tirion's excommunication), shouldn't be expected to fit into Bastion just because he lived a "life of service". The object of that service was something specific enough to clash with the Kyrians more universal philosophy that rejects allegiance to any of the other major powers of the universe including the Light. To become a true mind-wiped Kyrian he would have to be willing to forget the very thing he dedicated his life to serve, unlike Tirion who would still be serving his overarching goal of helping others.

[Eapoe]

This doesn't refute what I said because the concept of servitude is essentially the same thing as devotion/faith in this context. Uther's willingness to serve comes from his faith in the Light and his bond to his Kingdom and not from some weird innate property that makes him extremely submissive and servile. This entire notion is absolutely ridiculous.

No, you are completely wrong. It doesn’t matter what they have faith in as long as they have the willingness to serve in something while also possessing the ability to let go of what they personally believe in to serve the Shadowlands in ushering souls to where they should go.
The Arbiter judges them based on the person’s possibility to ascend and become a Kyrian steward. The very quest line the OP brings up to try and state the idea is ridiculous perfectly sums up why the OP is wrong. Alexandros didn’t go to Bastion because he of his ties to his family. He was strong because of his family. Even though he showed he was completely willing to serve, his strength in that service was due to his love for his family. Without the memories of them he is not the same, therefore the Arbiter judged him to not go there.
That is a stark contrast to Uther, who served the Light because he believed in it and drew strength from his servitude to it, much like a Kyrian is supposed to believe in their cause and he strong in it.
The fact you are still arguing this means you just can’t get past the fact you want to figuratively plug your ears and repeat “nuh uh nuh un nuh uh.”
I just want to sum up: the very quest the OP used to state the idea of Bastion and the Kyrian is ridiculous completely refutes the OP’s entire post.

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But then in what way is the person "dedicated to a higher purpose" any more suited to Bastion than anyone else? If its just a matter of "eh, in time they'll realise all their past attachments were meaningless" then that would apply to basically anyone coming to the Shadowlands. In fact I would argue a person "dedicated to a higher purpose" would find it more difficult to accept that this purpose is now defunct and they have to devote themselves to an entirely different purpose, than someone who just wasn't so consumed by service.

Perhaps the devout muslim would come to accept Christ if he finds himself in Christian heaven, but he will have a lot more internal difficulty and shock accepting that he must abandon everything he previously dedicated his life to. However a lukewarm muslim would find it easier since he wasn't so ardently wedded to his old beliefs, so why shouldn't he just accept the new reality?.

Like I said having those most dedicated to service go to Bastion doesn't make sense unless its specifically those dedicated to serve things compatible with the things that Bastion serves. Otherwise said souls would find it more, not less, difficult to acclimatise to Bastion's cause.




I'm not sure about this. We don't see anything indicating that they are cut off from the Light and we can see in both Revendreth and Bastion that both the Light and Void have made their presence known in the past- its clearly not a metaphysically out-of-bounds area for them except insofar as the defenders of the Shadowlands violently repulse them.

But regardless yes, a person devoted to the Light could eventually be forced to come around. But again this would be a more, not less, difficult journey for them- especially in Bastion where they wouldn't even be allowed the leeway of maintaining their personal beliefs in private. Their "service to a higher purpose" is a bond that united them with that which they once served and thus acts as a form of attachment to their past life stronger than the attachments of someone who never really served anything strongly.

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I think Nerevar in his most recent post hits on exactly what I'm trying to get at. People don't really have a "drive to serve" in an abstract sense- they serve something specific because they believe in that specific thing.

If I've dedicated my life to service to a religion/ideology/kingdom its not because I just loooove service and I had to choose something, anything, to serve. My desire to serve is born out of my conviction that the specific thing I'm serving is worth dedicating my life too. Its not clear to me just because someone served cause x in life they would be therefore more inclined to serve the Archon/Purpose in the Shadowlands.

I think you make a good point about selflessness and altruism- and maybe if the criteria was less "a life of service" or ""stalwart commitment to their duties" and more "a steadfast desire to help others" it would make more sense. But the impression being given is that its the principle of service and duty itself which makes someone worthy, which as I said doesn't make sense since if what you served isn't compatible with what the Kyrians serve you're going to be less, not more, willing to ascend.

Bastion should be a perfect place for someone like Tirion, who was willing to lay aside his religious and political allegiances in order to help another living thing. He has a dedicated to a higher purpose yes, but most importantly that purpose is something that can also be applied to what the Kyrians do in Bastion .i.e. helping all living things regardless of their race or creed.

But someone like Uther whose devotion was not just to "helping people" in general but was, by all accounts, a specific religious faith in the Light and the Church (hence why he consented to Tirion's excommunication), shouldn't be expected to fit into Bastion just because he lived a "life of service". The object of that service was something specific enough to clash with the Kyrians more universal philosophy that rejects allegiance to any of the other major powers of the universe including the Light. To become a true mind-wiped Kyrian he would have to be willing to forget the very thing he dedicated his life to serve, unlike Tirion who would still be serving his overarching goal of helping others.

Just because I have things to do I’m going to write as quickly as possible:

It’s not specifically meaning their past attachments were meaningless. It’s that they are able to realize that there is another calling that suits them that they can carry on in service of ushering souls to their resting place. The fact that to Ascend means giving up ones memories to become something different explicitly shows that the soul doesn’t have to believe in the same things the Kyrian do. This is actually shown in what is going on with Uther and Devos.

The fact that someone has the desire to serve out of belief has nothing to do with Bastion. It’s simply the ability to serve selflessly and be strong and firm in that duty. Alexandros quest, the one you cited to try and prove this point, actually hits the nail on the head in that he is strong because of his family and memories of them. Without his family and those bonds he is not the same person, nor is he strong in his service. Therefore, he wouldn’t be able to ascend because he wouldn’t be able to give up his previous memories.
The fact they give up memories to move on to a new purpose shows it doesn’t matter if the ideologies conflict with Bastion or not.
It’s the ability to serve and be strong in that service more than the ideals of why one serves.

[Nerovar]

No, you are completely wrong. It doesn’t matter what they have faith in as long as they have the willingness to serve in something while also possessing the ability to let go of what they personally believe in to serve the Shadowlands in ushering souls to where they should go.
The Arbiter judges them based on the person’s possibility to ascend and become a Kyrian steward. The very quest line the OP brings up to try and state the idea is ridiculous perfectly sums up why the OP is wrong. Alexandros didn’t go to Bastion because he of his ties to his family. He was strong because of his family. Even though he showed he was completely willing to serve, his strength in that service was due to his love for his family. Without the memories of them he is not the same, therefore the Arbiter judged him to not go there.
That is a stark contrast to Uther, who served the Light because he believed in it and drew strength from his servitude to it, much like a Kyrian is supposed to believe in their cause and he strong in it.
The fact you are still arguing this means you just can’t get past the fact you want to figuratively plug your ears and repeat “nuh uh nuh un nuh uh.”
I just want to sum up: the very quest the OP used to state the idea of Bastion and the Kyrian is ridiculous completely refutes the OP’s entire post.

You still fail to grasp the contestation OP made on a fundamental level. This is almost comical.

Willingness to serve is not some weird essentialist characteristic.
It cannot exist in a vacuum.
It is tied to specific causes.
If you take those causes away, you also take away the reason why the character served in the first place.

Alexandros was strong because of his family. Even though he showed he was completely willing to serve, his strength in that service was due to his love for his family. Without the memories of them he is not the same

Uther was strong because of his faith in the Light. Even though he showed that he was completely willing to serve, his strength in that service was due to his faith in the Light. Without the memories of it he is not the same.

[qwerty123456]

And what we are saying is that faith has nothing to do with their assignation to Bastion. It's their selflessness, their drive to serve others, that the Kyrians want.

It can't just be about their selflessness otherwise you wouldn't have people fail and go dark. Unless of course they are so selfless that were supposed to go dark and basically be level up material or lessons to the others which would be pretty fucked up if your prefect afterlife is to be half mindwiped, freak out, then eventually killed.

[huth]

The topic of this post is that you can't just arbitrarily disassociate the character traits like unwavering faith/loyalty from the object from which they ultimately derive those traits. Devotion or faith isn't some abstract essentialist trait you simply find in people. It has to be evoked by very specific causes because it lies in the connections people form to things like family, nation, God, their King et cetera. Because of that, it's not interchangeable like the narrative of the game presents it to be.
If a character is faitfhul because they formed a strong bond to the Light in life then that faith isn't some essential property of the character but rather a function of their relationship to the Light.

All i've seen on the topic says that you've got it backwards. Faith doesn't come from religion, religion comes from a need to have faith in something.

So the relationship with the Light is a function of their faith, not the other way around. It doesn't have to have a specific cause, these people actively look for one.

[Nerovar]

All i've seen on the topic says that you've got it backwards. Faith doesn't come from religion, religion comes from a need to have faith in something.

So the relationship with the Light is a function of their faith, not the other way around. It doesn't have to have a specific cause, these people actively look for one.

Unfortunately, I can't give you an answer on that because discussing religion is a forbidden topic iirc.

[Oneirophobia]

Sounds to me like the conclusion of this thread is that the path is flawed.

In the Spires dungeon, the archon herself almost arrives at that conclusion because of what happens with Devos. Perhaps that was why Devos was sent to Bastion in the first place, to force the archon to reflect on how she has ran things there.

[huth]

Unfortunately, I can't give you an answer on that because discussing religion is a forbidden topic iirc.

Not really, because religion isn't actually important to the argument. Point is that loyalty to causes really does come first, with causes being created to (ab)use this phenomenon. Most of the causes you named in that first post were invented for this purpose.

[Minikin]

100% agree with your analysis.

This entire zone was probably written by someone who's A) not religious and B) doesn't hold any strong convictions whatsoever so the whole matter is completely intangible to them which is why they reduce it to some weird abstraction.

Agree with this. The zone was setup by someone who isn't religious. It is "heaven" as concerned in terms of Shadowlands and the maw is "hell" but that doesn't mean they are relatable outside of that universe.

I think alot of it gets tied in to the Purpose at Oribos. The Shadowlands are setup as a machine. Each area serving as a part to the process. Which is EXTREMELY apparent in Ardenweald as in, anima is needed to nourish the souls, and the gorm "process waste" which would be anything that's non or devoid of anima. And with the drought since things don't have anima that normally would, they just eat it. Causing disruption in the process.

As such, Bastion is aimed at the purpose to ferry souls. If the cost of doing that duty properly means you sacrifice all that you are well that's an acceptable demand to those that ascend. Which is why they pick selfless souls (well, souls are picked for them).

It might look like heaven, but it is not heaven.

[huth]

Agree with this. The zone was setup by someone who isn't religious. It is "heaven" as concerned in terms of Shadowlands and the maw is "hell" but that doesn't mean they are relatable outside of that universe.

I think alot of it gets tied in to the Purpose at Oribos. The Shadowlands are setup as a machine. Each area serving as a part to the process. Which is EXTREMELY apparent in Ardenweald as in, anima is needed to nourish the souls, and the gorm "process waste" which would be anything that's non or devoid of anima. And with the drought since things don't have anima that normally would, they just eat it. Causing disruption in the process.

As such, Bastion is aimed at the purpose to ferry souls. If the cost of doing that duty properly means you sacrifice all that you are well that's an acceptable demand to those that ascend. Which is why they pick selfless souls (well, souls are picked for them).

It might look like heaven, but it is not heaven.

You're weird. On one hand, you accurately note that Bastion isn't even remotely trying to be "Heaven", yet on the other you can't seem to be able to accept that it isn't.

[Nerovar]

Not really, because religion isn't actually important to the argument. Point is that loyalty to causes really does come first, with causes being created to (ab)use this phenomenon. Most of the causes you named in that first post were invented for this purpose.

Can you tell me what loyalty without a cause looks like. What is that even supposed to mean?

[huth]

Can you tell me what loyalty without a cause looks like. What is that even supposed to mean?

People who are naturally inclined to loyalty will seek out a cause to be loyal to, that's what. That's rather the point, to: if they can't find one, they'll create one.

[Minikin]

You're weird. On one hand, you accurately note that Bastion isn't even remotely trying to be "Heaven", yet on the other you can't seem to be able to accept that it isn't.

Wha? No I am saying it looks it but it isn't. I'm not saying I'm mad that it isn't lol. I say it's heaven compared to the maw (obviously)

[huth]

Wha? No I am saying it looks it but it isn't. I'm not saying I'm mad that it isn't lol. I say it's heaven compared to the maw (obviously)

Maldraxxus would probably be considered heaven compared to the Maw for those who like it's values, so that isn't really saying much.

But you're not actually agreeing with Nerovar in that case. The bend of that post is quite a different direction.

[Minikin]

Maldraxxus would probably be considered heaven compared to the Maw for those who like it's values, so that isn't really saying much.

But you're not actually agreeing with Nerovar in that case. The bend of that post is quite a different direction.

My post was about the religious aspect he mentioned and the illustration of the zone that I mentioned in the end.

That the area for bastion with winged beings, bells, choirs, harmony, peace and all resembles heaven most. However the theme of it is not in line with any religious heaven that I'm familiar with.

As I said.

It looks like heaven but it's not heaven.
Compared to the maw, of course it is.

I have no idea how you would fit maldraxxus into what I was talking about.

[Feanoro]

100% agree with your analysis.

This entire zone was probably written by someone who's A) not religious and B) doesn't hold any strong convictions whatsoever so the whole matter is completely intangible to them which is why they reduce it to some weird abstraction.

The writers VERY clearly display those traits, and also clearly there's people in this thread who share in them.

[Nagawithlegs]

This thread smells suspiciously like people getting upset that Blizzard wrote a good and thought-provoking storyline. God forbid.

Completely by accident of course!

Also, complaining that angels and angelic aesthetics are being used without proper adherence to IRL values related to said angels is ludicrous. The people who complain that "dey r just blumans" have a better point.