About the Night Elves, Elune and Sylvanas

[darkoms]

Find this in Wowpedia

After being raised as a Forsaken in-game, Sira tells Horde players that the newly resurrected night elves have their own reasons for accepting the Val'kyr's gift.[18] However, when confronted by Tyrande in Shadows Rising, Sira claims that she did not choose to return.


When asked if this was a deliberate retcon, Madeleine Roux stated "I'd like to rebuttal with 'Not every character tells the truth all the time'. We're not in Sira's head in that moment. We don't know what she's thinking or why she's saying what she's saying. She is in a prison with a woman who is probably coming to execute her. [...] People react differently in different situations. The Sira you see alone in a jail cell surrounded by enemies is not the Sira you see swaggering around in the jungle giving guff to Nathanos, right? Like, circumstances matter and context matters, so to me, in that moment [...] it's like every circumstance has to come together in that moment for [Tyrande] to not [kill Sira]. [...] So that's what I would say: people lie a lot and especially when self-preservation is potentially on the line. So yeah, and I think hopefully it's obvious that Sira does not act the same way in that scene as she would if she was with her allies. She's responding to context, is what I would say in that scenario."[19]

It turns out very funny. Sira lied to Tyrande about not wanting to return and was telling the truth when she said that the resurrected elves had reasons to accept the gift. What reasons? Resentment against Elune and Tyrande? This has been discussed many times, but I will say it again. This plot is incredibly, absolutely and impossible, stupid and miserable, and the one who wrote it (and most likely it was Danuser, because only he could write such nonsense to make his waifu look even cooler) is a clinical idiot. I just don’t understand how the returned night elves side with SILVANAS, who killed them. I would understand if they were against Sylvanas and Tyrande, but to fight for the one who killed you and your loved ones is just incredibly stupid. Well, the resentment against Elune also looks very funny. Did the Night Elves expect Elune to descend from the skies and personally destroy all enemies? I mean, she didn't do it in the War of the Ancients, in the Third War, in the Cataclysm, but the elves didn't lose faith in her. Because of this, this situation turns out

Who could not break the faith of the night elves:
Sargeras
Archimonde
Deathwing

Who could break the faith of the night elves:
Sylvanas

[Feanoro]

Allow me to explain. The current writers detest consistency, and have publicly stated they find adherence to existing lore "constraining". As such, they write whatever "cool" (in their minds) events they like without the slightest regard to it making sense.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Allow me to explain. The current writers detest consistency, and have publicly stated they find adherence to existing lore "constraining". As such, they write whatever "cool" (in their minds) events they like without the slightest regard to it making sense.

So just like the old writers for WC1/2/3/Vanilla/TBC?

[Aresk]

Based on my reading of events, death is what broke their will. The Night Elves who died to the Burning Legion or the Old Gods were not offered an opportunity to return. Had Sylvanas swung by Auberdine with her Val'kyr in Cataclysm, she might've had the same result. She didn't. Other Elune worshippers don't seem to be angry about their deaths (those from Fyzandi, for instance), so I'm not really sure why Sira and the rest are so angry about it (I agree that it is bad writing), but that or mind control seem to be the only thing I can think of for why they would choose Sylvanas.

[darkoms]

Based on my reading of events, death is what broke their will. The Night Elves who died to the Burning Legion or the Old Gods were not offered an opportunity to return. Had Sylvanas swung by Auberdine with her Val'kyr in Cataclysm, she might've had the same result. She didn't. Other Elune worshippers don't seem to be angry about their deaths (those from Fyzandi, for instance), so I'm not really sure why Sira and the rest are so angry about it (I agree that it is bad writing), but that or mind control seem to be the only thing I can think of for why they would choose Sylvanas.

We see undead night elves on in Legion and they look fine

[Feanoro]

So just like the old writers for WC1/2/3/Vanilla/TBC?

Metzen at least cared about his work and apologized for really bad mistakes like space goats.

[Aresk]

We see undead night elves on in Legion and they look fine

The Court of Farondis hated their prince for their plight; it was a plot point in the initial quests of the faction. I don't feel it was that different; they held him responsible and held a grudge for 10,000 years until Azshara invaded and he rallied a defense for them. The ones in Darkshore held Elune responsible and reviled her for their plight. Night elves are great at grudges.

[bowlink]

The Court of Farondis hated their prince for their plight; it was a plot point in the initial quests of the faction. I don't feel it was that different; they held him responsible and held a grudge for 10,000 years until Azshara invaded and he rallied a defense for them. The ones in Darkshore held Elune responsible and reviled her for their plight. Night elves are great at grudges.

As opposed to holding a grudge to the person who murdered you,
There is no way you can spin or twist this were Sylvanas isn't bad guy.

This is danuser's stupid fan fic and thats all it is

[Plehnard]

One reason could be that they all had a peak into the Maw, and them not knowing the machine of death was broken, thinking they had been there on purpose. (being abandoned by Elune)

[Soon-TM]

So just like the old writers for WC1/2/3/Vanilla/TBC?

The only large scale retcon all the way from WC2 to BC was about playable Draenei, and Metzen himself got his fair amount of flak for it back then. Now we're getting that kind of retcons once or twice per year at the very least.

[Aresk]

As opposed to holding a grudge to the person who murdered you,
There is no way you can spin or twist this were Sylvanas isn't bad guy.

This is danuser's stupid fan fic and thats all it is

In Delaryn's situation, I would personally hold Sylvanas accountable for my death, not Elune, but I'm not a Night Elf or an Elune worshipper. I am definitely not trying to say Sylvanas was innocent. The Night Elves in both instances, however, seem to hate the ones they trusted to protect them, rather than the ones that caused them harm.

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The only large scale retcon all the way from WC2 to BC was about playable Draenei, and Metzen himself got his fair amount of flak for it back then. Now we're getting that kind of retcons once or twice per year at the very least.

Out of curiosity, what other retcons do you consider large scale? I would say Metzen's Sargeras/eredar/draenei retcon was the largest in Warcraft's history; I wouldn't put any others nearly as significant as that one, but that's obviously my opinion.

[Verdugo]

Out of curiosity, what other retcons do you consider large scale? I would say Metzen's Sargeras/eredar/draenei retcon was the largest in Warcraft's history; I wouldn't put any others nearly as significant as that one, but that's obviously my opinion.

What about entire Chronicles, series that retconed majority of lore for the sake of making the universe consistent... and then taking a giant dump on it few months later.

[Mungho]

What about entire Chronicles, series that retconed majority of lore for the sake of making the universe consistent... and then taking a giant dump on it few months later.

Chronicles retconned into the lore terrible things. Like remember how after the Draenei landed on Draenor, they and the Orcs sometimes traded but mostly left each other alone? Well, Chronicles 3 retconned that the Orcs raided, murdered, and raped the Draenei the whole 200 years before the genocide, making the Draenei's shock at the Orcs turning on them even more unbelievable.

And as for the topic on hand, it's just bad writing, no other words. I seem to remember a quest Horde-side where the player can receive a blessing from Elune. Yeah, the faction that regularly picks fights with her chosen people is a-okay with her.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The only large scale retcon all the way from WC2 to BC was about playable Draenei, and Metzen himself got his fair amount of flak for it back then. Now we're getting that kind of retcons once or twice per year at the very least.

That’s really not even close to the only large scale retcon from WC2-TBC there were a ton of them as seen on the wiki.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Retcon_speculation

[Nynax]

In Delaryn's situation, I would personally hold Sylvanas accountable for my death, not Elune, but I'm not a Night Elf or an Elune worshipper. I am definitely not trying to say Sylvanas was innocent. The Night Elves in both instances, however, seem to hate the ones they trusted to protect them, rather than the ones that caused them harm.

I see it as a devout Christian having served God all your life, only to die and find that the Pearly Gates are silent, indifferent, and closed to you and the only true presence is Satan who offers a seat at the table that actually exists. Who then would you chose?

[Aresk]

I see it as a devout Christian having served God all your life, only to die and find that the Pearly Gates are silent, indifferent, and closed to you and the only true presence is Satan who offers a seat at the table that actually exists. Who then would you chose?

That's definitely a fair take. However, we have individuals like Calia, who was also a devout person, killed by Sylvanas, and brought back, yet she does not forsake the Light even though she would, presumably, have seen the same afterlife that the Night Elves did in the Maw. It could be a physiological consequence, a cultural difference, or maybe Sira and Delaryn just aren't as devout as Calia.

[Super Dickmann]

That's definitely a fair take. However, we have individuals like Calia, who was also a devout person, killed by Sylvanas, and brought back, yet she does not forsake the Light even though she would, presumably, have seen the same afterlife that the Night Elves did in the Maw. It could be a physiological consequence, a cultural difference, or maybe Sira and Delaryn just aren't as devout as Calia.

Calia is a bearer of both human potential and a member of a prominent bloodline. Inferior races like night elves following false gods who can barely power both Tyrande and bless some war drums can't compete. Indeed, so great is her presence that despite them having nothing in common in terms of culture, background, circumstances of death, faith or race they are willing to travel all across the world to join her instead of their people.

[Nynax]

That's definitely a fair take. However, we have individuals like Calia, who was also a devout person, killed by Sylvanas, and brought back, yet she does not forsake the Light even though she would, presumably, have seen the same afterlife that the Night Elves did in the Maw. It could be a physiological consequence, a cultural difference, or maybe Sira and Delaryn just aren't as devout as Calia.

The difference being in how they were raised to undeath. If they both witnessed the Maw, Calia died and was then "saved" by the very light she believed in. Whereas Sira and Delaryn were holding out hope that if they held out just long enough Elune and/or Tyrande would save them...only to die "abandoned" in shadow; ultimatly finding salvation from the Maw through the very shadow they had fought. Even the afterlife promised to brave warriors of Elune turned out to be a lie (to them).

[Eggroll]

The difference being in how they were raised to undeath. If they both witnessed the Maw, Calia died and was then "saved" by the very light she believed in. Whereas Sira and Delaryn were holding out hope that if they held out just long enough Elune and/or Tyrande would save them...only to die "abandoned" in shadow; ultimatly finding salvation from the Maw through the very shadow they had fought. Even the afterlife promised to brave warriors of Elune turned out to be a lie (to them).

There is a difference between Sira and Delaryn though. Delaryn joined Calia and turned away from Sylvanas. She was raised against her will and would likely not be welcomed back into night elf society.

It's different with Sira though. Maybe what Roux implied on Sira's side was duplicity. That she would be disposed of by the undead if she rebelled, or maybe even that she would be an agent among the undead.

[Minikin]

It turns out very funny. Sira lied to Tyrande about not wanting to return and was telling the truth when she said that the resurrected elves had reasons to accept the gift. What reasons? Resentment against Elune and Tyrande? This has been discussed many times, but I will say it again. This plot is incredibly, absolutely and impossible, stupid and miserable, and the one who wrote it (and most likely it was Danuser, because only he could write such nonsense to make his waifu look even cooler) is a clinical idiot. I just don’t understand how the returned night elves side with SILVANAS, who killed them.

i gotta say I laughed my ass off when I read that. its so damn correct.

Danuser has no shame, regarding him and his waifu. Story be damned.

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Chronicles retconned into the lore terrible things. Like remember how after the Draenei landed on Draenor, they and the Orcs sometimes traded but mostly left each other alone? Well, Chronicles 3 retconned that the Orcs raided, murdered, and raped the Draenei the whole 200 years before the genocide, making the Draenei's shock at the Orcs turning on them even more unbelievable.

And as for the topic on hand, it's just bad writing, no other words. I seem to remember a quest Horde-side where the player can receive a blessing from Elune. Yeah, the faction that regularly picks fights with her chosen people is a-okay with her.

what the heck. when did they do this?