The problem with the Horde.

[MrLachyG]

We brought back dead characters before. This is a non issue.

when exactly did we bring back dead characters to become leaders? not just dead characters but evil characters who we killed? you have not thought this through at all

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The Horde losses can be fixed. Just reverse the decisions and call it a day. Who we need back are.

Kilrogg
Kargath
Grommash
Ner'zhul
Fenris
Tagar
Kael'thas
Vol'jin
Rastakhan
Magatha

Also only the Horde lost their past Legends. The Alliance is doing just fine and did not lose anything. This is clear bias. My solution can fix this problem.

your suggestion is ridiculous. most are dead dead and are not coming back. and Fenris? really?

[Grazrug]

when exactly did we bring back dead characters to become leaders? not just dead characters but evil characters who we killed? you have not thought this through at all

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your suggestion is ridiculous. most are dead dead and are not coming back. and Fenris? really?

Fenris the Hunter. The only Orc chieftain we don't know what happened to him. There is potential for a good story to tell.

[MrLachyG]

Fenris the Hunter. The only Orc chieftain we don't know what happened to him. There is potential for a good story to tell.

probably dead, given he was last seen on Draenor before it exploded. I don't get why you keep making the same fuckin thread over and over again with characters that are gone

[Grazrug]

probably dead, given he was last seen on Draenor before it exploded. I don't get why you keep making the same fuckin thread over and over again with characters that are gone

Because i will not just give up on what i want.

[MrLachyG]

Because i will not just give up on what i want.

... you think that posting here will get you what you want? really?

[LemonDemonGirl]

The Horde losses can be fixed. Just reverse the decisions and call it a day. Who we need back are.

Kilrogg
Kargath
Grommash
Ner'zhul
Fenris
Tagar
Kael'thas
Vol'jin
Rastakhan
Magatha

Also only the Horde lost their past Legends. The Alliance is doing just fine and did not lose anything. This is clear bias. My solution can fix this problem.

Yeah we need Vol'jin and Rastakhan back

[Thage]

The Horde losses can be fixed. Just reverse the decisions and call it a day.

Sure, let's make continuity even more of a joke just to make the Horde the bad guys again, so they can lose again, because, again, the game's nature as an ongoing MMO means decisive victory cannot happen. This means, every time the Horde's stated goal in a war is to push the Alliance off the map, they will fail. You cannot wipe out one of two playable factions in a two-faction game while the game still undergoes active development. Your solution does not address this, and simply resets the treadmill that put the Horde in the position it's in to begin with. The Horde keeps suffering losses not because of any pretend bias you think the company has, but because it keeps waging wars it can't win and suffers losses from its own stupidity.

Also only the Horde lost their past Legends. The Alliance is doing just fine and did not lose anything. This is clear bias. My solution can fix this problem.

Until recently the Alliance has generally lost more land than it's gained in wars with the Horde. The last time a long-term treaty was signed, the Alliance ceded Azshara and allowed the Horde to keep its gains in the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Hillsbrad, got Ashenvale back, and Gilneas was 'in talks,' and it can be safely assumed going off of mission tables in BFA that Gilneas is still hotly-contested. In the Fourth War, off the top of my head the Horde overall gained more territory than the Alliance, getting a firm foothold in the Broken Isles as both the Nightborne and Highmountain joined the Horde (making their territory Horde in turn), Zandalar, and solidified their holdings in southern and central Kalimdor. The Alliance retook Darkshore, now a blighted and incinerated mess, and solidified their hold in the Arathi Highlands, in addition to bringing Kul'Tiras into the hold. That's a net gain of one continent on the Horde's advantage since they have a stronger presence in the Broken Isles than the Alliance, who lack a firm foothold there.

[Dazmalak]

Sure, let's make continuity even more of a joke just to make the Horde the bad guys again, so they can lose again, because, again, the game's nature as an ongoing MMO means decisive victory cannot happen. This means, every time the Horde's stated goal in a war is to push the Alliance off the map, they will fail. You cannot wipe out one of two playable factions in a two-faction game while the game still undergoes active development. Your solution does not address this, and simply resets the treadmill that put the Horde in the position it's in to begin with. The Horde keeps suffering losses not because of any pretend bias you think the company has, but because it keeps waging wars it can't win and suffers losses from its own stupidity.

Until recently the Alliance has generally lost more land than it's gained in wars with the Horde. The last time a long-term treaty was signed, the Alliance ceded Azshara and allowed the Horde to keep its gains in the Barrens, Stonetalon, and Hillsbrad, got Ashenvale back, and Gilneas was 'in talks,' and it can be safely assumed going off of mission tables in BFA that Gilneas is still hotly-contested. In the Fourth War, off the top of my head the Horde overall gained more territory than the Alliance, getting a firm foothold in the Broken Isles as both the Nightborne and Highmountain joined the Horde (making their territory Horde in turn), Zandalar, and solidified their holdings in southern and central Kalimdor. The Alliance retook Darkshore, now a blighted and incinerated mess, and solidified their hold in the Arathi Highlands, in addition to bringing Kul'Tiras into the hold. That's a net gain of one continent on the Horde's advantage since they have a stronger presence in the Broken Isles than the Alliance, who lack a firm foothold there.

If a decisive victory cannot happen, then why does the Alliance always win decisively?

[Florena]

If a decisive victory cannot happen, then why does the Alliance always win decisively?

Because the Alliance's goal is never 'destroy the Horde.' At least not whenever they achieve 'decisive victory.'

[Thage]

If a decisive victory cannot happen, then why does the Alliance always win decisively?

The last decisive win the Alliance had over the Horde was in Warcraft 2. Mists of Pandaria wasn't a decisive win because Varian opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. Battle for Azeroth wasn't a decisive win because Anduin opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. The difference between the Alliance winning a war and the scenario OP wants is that when the Alliance wins, they still give the Horde a shitload of land and resources and walk away, putting the Horde on the honor system to not fuck shit up again. If the Horde wins a war it's waging to wipe the Alliance out... the Alliance gets wiped out.

This isn't hard to figure out, man, come on.

edit: Furthermore, it's a hell of a stretch to call BFA a 'decisive win' for the Alliance even with the treaty in place, since the only reason the war ended was Sylvanas abdicating the throne and the Horde's representatives agreeing to stop the war. There was no clear victor between the Horde and the Alliance-Rebel coalition, seeing as the matter between the Horde and the rebels was solved via mak'gora.

[Varodoc]

Judging by the opening of your thread, dear OP, you seem very frustrated by the fact that the Ren'dorei became playable. I understand your discomfort, as the Ren'dorei are the most unique and special race in the game and thus you wanted them in the Horde, but it has been 3 years. Please move on.

Yeah we need Vol'jin and Rastakhan back

Why would you want them back? They were terrible rulers. Vol'jin was a blind fool who indirectly caused the Fourth War and Shadowlands, while Rastakhan was a senile idiot who almost doomed his kingdom had it not been for the Horde's intervention.

[Venziir]

Let me be Frank. The Horde has been in a depleted state ever since Siege of Orgrimmar. We are losing our lore characters. We lost Tirisfal and the Undercity. We get no lore representation in neutral plot. The Alliance scum dabs on us in every faction war story. See Rastakhan and the golden fleet. And Blizzard gave the bloodelf model to the alliance. All these have been heavy hits to the Horde. But the worst was with the new council being installed as our new goverment. This new central goverment that was forced on us without asking. Are a bunch of weak, spineless leftover characters which were the mere survivors of the purge Blizzard put our leading characters cast through. We lost big names like Vol’jin, Sylvanas and Gallywix. What we got instead are alliance loving cowards who always put the wellbeing of the alliance above all else. This is shameful and can not stand idle. What we need is drastical change. We will start this change by eleminating all the weak peaceknicks and replace them with the following characters.

Orcs: All the AU warlords
Trolls: Jindo the Godbreaker
Tauren: Magatha Grimtotem.
Blood elves: Kael’thas
Goblins: Gallywix
Undead: Sylvanas
Pandaren: Chen Stormstout
Nightborne: Grand Magistrix Elisande
Zandalari: Rastakhan
Maghar: Same as Orcs
Highmountain Tauren: Underking Drargul.

Next in line we change the value of power. Each council member will be given a share of power. Think of as is as a ministry system. There will be head of the spies. A head of the army. A head of the economy. A head for magic research and a head of diplomacy. And so forth. You get the idea. It is very much alike to the dark council of the Sith Empire in Swtor.

Afterwards we build a new capital city. Orgrimmar is too ugly and too small. We need a proper capital city just as prosperous and big as Stormwind is. A place where all cultures of the Horde find their place. With a central fortress that doesent fit just infront of the main gate where the target would be too easy to pick on. Kalimdor is big. This new capital could be everywhere. Dustwallow marshes, Barrens, Feralas. I will go with Feralas here cause its a lush place with many resources.

Then when that is done we pick on the last thing. The name of the faction. With the Greenskins no longer dominating it we change it from Horde to the Coalition. Much more fitting for literally the most diverse group of races banding together like no other on Azeroth.

And this would be my way of how to fix the Horde. Feel free to leave your thoughts on this.

Wait, THIS thread... Again!? Didn't you post this exact craziness a month or two ago?

[Dazmalak]

The last decisive win the Alliance had over the Horde was in Warcraft 2. Mists of Pandaria wasn't a decisive win because Varian opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. Battle for Azeroth wasn't a decisive win because Anduin opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. The difference between the Alliance winning a war and the scenario OP wants is that when the Alliance wins, they still give the Horde a shitload of land and resources and walk away, putting the Horde on the honor system to not fuck shit up again. If the Horde wins a war it's waging to wipe the Alliance out... the Alliance gets wiped out.

This isn't hard to figure out, man, come on.

edit: Furthermore, it's a hell of a stretch to call BFA a 'decisive win' for the Alliance even with the treaty in place, since the only reason the war ended was Sylvanas abdicating the throne and the Horde's representatives agreeing to stop the war. There was no clear victor between the Horde and the Alliance-Rebel coalition, seeing as the matter between the Horde and the rebels was solved via mak'gora.

So we can't have decisive victories, but we can as long as the Alliance wins cuz they're the good guys?

News flash, the Horde is in fact dead and gone. Oh sure, orcs and the rest haven't been wiped out and still exist. But to call the current Alliance-but-red band of misfits the Horde is an insult to what it stood for. You don't have to kill an entire population to kill an identity. Fortunately video game characters are malleable and able to change their world view overnight because some woke ass NPC told them to.

The Alliance won every battle in BfA with the exception of Teldrassil. At the end of the day the Horde has more or less been dismantled into a pale imitation of the Alliance and we have peace on Azeroth. Not an uneasy peace or a strained armistice, but straight up Horde leaders palling around with Alliance leaders. The Forsaken even have an Alliance replacement waiting in the wings for the opportunity to take over. I call that a pretty resounding victory for the Alliance, whether any of it was intentional or not.

[Venziir]

Because i will not just give up on what i want.

.... Hah yeah right, because Blizzard is surely reading this and going "Oh, well he does have a point, right then!".

[Thage]

So we can't have decisive victories, but we can as long as the Alliance wins cuz they're the good guys?

Both sides agreeing to stop fighting isn't a victory for one side, it's a draw. Every faction conflict since WoW 1.0 has been a draw because of how the game is built.

News flash, the Horde is in fact dead and gone. Oh sure, orcs and the rest haven't been wiped out and still exist. But to call the current Alliance-but-red band of misfits the Horde is an insult to what it stood for. You don't have to kill an entire population to kill an identity. Fortunately video game characters are malleable and able to change their world view overnight because some woke ass NPC told them to.

You not liking how the Horde restructured itself after realizing the Warchief position has more often than not led to the autocrat in question going mad with power, or just plain mad, does not mean the Horde was removed as a global superpower or that the Alliance killed it.

The Alliance won every battle in BfA with the exception of Teldrassil. At the end of the day the Horde has more or less been dismantled into a pale imitation of the Alliance and we have peace on Azeroth. Not an uneasy peace or a strained armistice, but straight up Horde leaders palling around with Alliance leaders. The Forsaken even have an Alliance replacement waiting in the wings for the opportunity to take over. I call that a pretty resounding victory for the Alliance, whether any of it was intentional or not.

The Alliance won most of the major engagements, but that doesn't translate to them winning the war when both sides agreed to a draw after Sylvanas abdicated. At no point did the factions sign paperwork declaring the Alliance victor, nor did the Alliance set any terms--a stark contrast to the treaty signed after the Siege of Orgrimmar, where terms (albeit heavily favorable to the Horde considering how much land the supposed 'decisive victors' ceded without even securing half as many of the contested areas for themselves) were actually established. Furthermore, neither faction was in a position to make those demands, since Sylvanas had successfully depleted both armies so badly that even with the rebels reinforcing their numbers, Anduin could only field enough troops for one last push--all the Horde had to do was let the Alliance exhaust themselves at Orgrimmar's gate and counterattack to win. Nobody honest with themselves would call that a decisive victory.

I'm sorry you dislike the direction the Horde took itself in after realizing what they had wasn't working out for them in the long term, but that doesn't mean the Alliance struck decisive victories over two draws, one of which happened when both armies had completely exhausted themselves.

[Grazrug]

Judging by the opening of your thread, dear OP, you seem very frustrated by the fact that the Ren'dorei became playable. I understand your discomfort, as the Ren'dorei are the most unique and special race in the game and thus you wanted them in the Horde, but it has been 3 years. Please move on.



Why would you want them back? They were terrible rulers. Vol'jin was a blind fool who indirectly caused the Fourth War and Shadowlands, while Rastakhan was a senile idiot who almost doomed his kingdom had it not been for the Horde's intervention.

I will never stop. Not until i get what i want. Also stop posting to me alliance zealot. I didn't ask for your opinion.

[Infraction]

Both sides agreeing to stop fighting isn't a victory for one side, it's a draw. Every faction conflict since WoW 1.0 has been a draw because of how the game is built.

You not liking how the Horde restructured itself after realizing the Warchief position has more often than not led to the autocrat in question going mad with power, or just plain mad, does not mean the Horde was removed as a global superpower or that the Alliance killed it.

The Alliance won most of the major engagements, but that doesn't translate to them winning the war when both sides agreed to a draw after Sylvanas abdicated. At no point did the factions sign paperwork declaring the Alliance victor, nor did the Alliance set any terms--a stark contrast to the treaty signed after the Siege of Orgrimmar, where terms (albeit heavily favorable to the Horde considering how much land the supposed 'decisive victors' ceded without even securing half as many of the contested areas for themselves) were actually established. Furthermore, neither faction was in a position to make those demands, since Sylvanas had successfully depleted both armies so badly that even with the rebels reinforcing their numbers, Anduin could only field enough troops for one last push--all the Horde had to do was let the Alliance exhaust themselves at Orgrimmar's gate and counterattack to win. Nobody honest with themselves would call that a decisive victory.

I'm sorry you dislike the direction the Horde took itself in after realizing what they had wasn't working out for them in the long term, but that doesn't mean the Alliance struck decisive victories over two draws, one of which happened when both armies had completely exhausted themselves.

You won at Zuldazar and both warfronts. You got more then enough.

[Varodoc]

I will never stop. Not until i get what i want. Also stop posting to me alliance zealot. I didn't ask for your opinion.

Let me correct you on two points:

1) I'm not an Alliance fanatic, I am a Ren'dorei fanatic. Never make that mistake again.

2) I don't need your consent to give my opinion. That's now how human conversations work, though I don't imagine people on this forum have much experience when it comes to human interaction.

[Grazrug]

.... Hah yeah right, because Blizzard is surely reading this and going "Oh, well he does have a point, right then!".

My fight for a better Horde continues.

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Wait, THIS thread... Again!? Didn't you post this exact craziness a month or two ago?

It is Not crazy. It is to avoid the Horde getting dominated by the Alliance.

[Thage]

You won at Zuldazar and both warfronts. You got more then enough.

There was no declared victor in the war. The fact that the Horde agreed to an armistice was a major sticking point among the Zandalari in Shadows Rising.

And again, the Horde walked out with more territory than the Alliance in both times official treaties were signed. That is not an Alliance victory. I'm sorry you don't understand how wars and treaties work and you think the only way wars end is if one side obliterates the other.

[Grazrug]

The last decisive win the Alliance had over the Horde was in Warcraft 2. Mists of Pandaria wasn't a decisive win because Varian opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. Battle for Azeroth wasn't a decisive win because Anduin opted for a peace treaty instead of annexing the Horde/removing it as a global superpower. The difference between the Alliance winning a war and the scenario OP wants is that when the Alliance wins, they still give the Horde a shitload of land and resources and walk away, putting the Horde on the honor system to not fuck shit up again. If the Horde wins a war it's waging to wipe the Alliance out... the Alliance gets wiped out.

This isn't hard to figure out, man, come on.

edit: Furthermore, it's a hell of a stretch to call BFA a 'decisive win' for the Alliance even with the treaty in place, since the only reason the war ended was Sylvanas abdicating the throne and the Horde's representatives agreeing to stop the war. There was no clear victor between the Horde and the Alliance-Rebel coalition, seeing as the matter between the Horde and the rebels was solved via mak'gora.

Sylvanas needs to return and kill the weakling leaders who put us in this mess. I will never accept peace with the alliance. The only thing they get from me is kill on sight.