Who's the genius at blizzard who...

[Glorious Leader]

7 bosses down for the week and nothing but 35 anima per boss to show for it. EXCELLENT REWARD ENGINEERING.

[kaelix1]

7 bosses down for the week and nothing but 35 anima per boss to show for it. EXCELLENT REWARD ENGINEERING.

You think you got it bad? 2 resets of full clear got me 1 gear, the trinket from the dance boss, this became pretty nonsense, i get loot should feel rare but holyshit not like this

[Glorious Leader]

You think you got it bad? 2 resets of full clear got me 1 gear, the trinket from the dance boss, this became pretty nonsense, i get loot should feel rare but holyshit not like this

Look at the upside friend. Normal will be relevant till patch 10.0 at this rate.

[Defend]

My guild cleared normal last night, 2 pieces of loot dropped for the entire raid. 21 people, 7 bosses and 2 pieces of loot. I think they went a little far on it.

There’s so many things wrong with this sentence. Each boss drops 3 pieces, no matter what first off. Also, the raid is 10 bosses.

[Tumile]

Good job completely misunderstanding what I said.

He said:

Stat weights for most classes are fairly close to each other

Which just isn't true.
Unless
Your item level is low.

And you confirmed what I said. Unless you consider 20-30% "fairly close".

215 ilvl rogue, Stat Weights are fairly close, min = 0.89 max = 0.96 ST, min= 1.26 max= 1.56 AOE

i dont consider 215 low ilvl

same is true for my 211 Shadow priest

same is true for my friends 213 hunter

same is true for my friends 213 boomy.

cba looking at more, stat weights obviously change depending on the stats you currently have, they have nothing to do with Ilvl, if my rogue didnt have 1k versatility, then vers would obviously be a shit ton higher, not really sure what you are getting at?

[kaminaris]

215 ilvl rogue, Stat Weights are fairly close, min = 0.89 max = 0.96 ST, min= 1.26 max= 1.56 AOE

i dont consider 215 low ilvl

same is true for my 211 Shadow priest

same is true for my friends 213 hunter

same is true for my friends 213 boomy.

cba looking at more, stat weights obviously change depending on the stats you currently have, they have nothing to do with Ilvl, if my rogue didnt have 1k versatility, then vers would obviously be a shit ton higher, not really sure what you are getting at?

Love when people say things that can be verified. Now, buckle up, cause we are going deep into mythbusting ride.

Gingi - hunter (219 ilvl): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...AdURLMUwc7Jajf
Min-max, crit to haste is 15% - so yes, this is true, not much difference here

Zsp (some spriest i found on raider io, 217 ilvl): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...GogDfADUodnki6
Mastery to haste: 23% - well gap seems to widen

CAILAA (some druid i found on rio, 213 ilvl): https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...P7eCoJz7d8pYec
Haste to mastery: 26%

So saying that "stat weights are fairly close to each other for most classes" is simply false. Unless you consider 20-30% fairly close.
If you randomly sim people from rio you will get differences between 1% and even 40%.

Stat weights depends on both your ilvl (because of overall stat pool) and your current stats (distribution of these stats).
Stat values per percentage is only correlated to your LEVEL: https://worldofwarcraft.fandom.com/et/wiki/Attributes

So with different gear, different talent, different level (well technically we discard that because we assume everyone is level 60) and different ilvl you stat weights will change.

Let me explain why is that the case.
Consider 2 toons, with exact same gear except first one has all 160 ilvl items and the other has all 220 items - they are the same items, just different ilvl.
However percentage values from stats will be different. And these are not linear, gets worse with item level because of diminishing returns.
Raw dps gain per percentage value is yet another non-liner variable.
And that can be seen here:

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/hunter...stingpatchwerk

Now how to interpret this chart?
https://i.imgur.com/jusDb5N.png
(because its a 3d chart so you have to use some imagination)

And for example in case of BM hunter (technically bis gear), you can see that haste and crit is much more important than mastery.
You can cycle thru the classes on top of that chart.

Now for example bala druid: https://bloodmallet.com/chart/druid/...stingpatchwerk
Perfect stat distribution (distribution, not percentage values of stats themselves)
You can see that its 10% crit, 40% of haste, 30% of mastery, 20% of versa
Which translated into numbers, assuming static attribute budget for example 2000, You should aim to get 200 crit, 800 of haste, 600 of mastery and 400 of versa.
Oh and i forgot to mention, this would be the case where your stat weight be closer to that 1% rather than 30%.

[Malania]

Suggested to greatly decrease loot in raids? I'm at this very moment on Sire and not a single drop I got, just anima and gold, anima and gold, anima and gold. Not sure how this equates to good raid design, I don't get it.

Boo-hoo. No shinies to show off.

[stutt-]

All valid points.

- - - Updated - - -

Raiding sounds like garbage now.

The raid is actually great, I love it.

- - - Updated - - -

Raiding sounds like garbage now.

The raid is actually great, I love it.

[MoFalcon]

People that take a break don't pay for a subscription.

THIS!!! The ONLY reason there is sooo much bloat content to do....keep you busy...keep you paying!

[stutt-]

I wasn't thinking of the great vault when I wrote this post, it's not THAT bad. I still feel bad for people going through normals and heroic without a single item. Let's have this conversation in 6 months, Blizz might be onto something.

[Lei]

This is maybe the first true raid or die expansion if you think about it. Badge gear was always accessible for minimal effort. In wrath, you could buy tier set pieces and highest ilevel pieces from badge. For daily heroics and weekly raids. In mop, LFR gear was really strong and upgradeable, we still had great reputation epics, trinkets, craftables. This was true up until wod. But then in Wod crafting was dominant and cheap. And mission table helped in.
I have never felt this left in the dark as a nonraider/non m+er in 14 years in this game.

[nnelson54]

Did you start playing the game in wod, because your ignorance would suggest that you started playing on BFA.

Vanilla, BC, Wotlk, and Cata all had master loot, and no warforging. They also in a way kept raids semi relevant through an entire expansion, and the player base didn't need an artificial carrot on a stick to keep them playing.

The raids stayed relevant the entire time because of the lack of loot. Vanilla raids dropped two pieces of loot per boss for a 40 person raid. You had to keep clearing them for loot.

[tyranade]

It’s too time consuming and also not rewarding at all. It’s like a lobby game. There’s no open world just four tiny islands which also are story locked by covenant. After 14 years I’ll call it a day. Sad but there’s no other way. I won’t spend hours a day playing a game. I just wonder how many hours you actually have to put in to get anywhere? I saw a post saying that one hour a day is way too little.

[Fayenoor]

With this low level of loot drop rate, they should implement a "loot lock" system to allow players to opt out of loot from bosses which drop crap loot.

[phattsao]

It really was a bad idea. The idea was clearly to keep us playing longer, they must have data that shows people stop playing once their ilevel gets to a certain point.

But Titanforging had a lot of plusses, the biggest being that you would be compelled to do stuff you wouldn't normally, like World Quests or LFR, just for the chance of that sweet bonus. Now there's little incentive to do anything once you are past the point of it being required.

[intenz]

did you joined the game recently like in mop/wod? it's one of the best decision they've made in a while
also, it's either that or titanforge, they can't have both

Or we could just have loot how it was in TBC/wotlk, you know, when the game was great and had 10mill+ happy players.

The current system is a very transparent attempt to make people stay subbed since loot upgrades are tied to the great vault as opposed to playing the game. Do your 1 mythic+, do a little pvp, do a little raiding, grats you can gear up almost as fast as someone playing 8 hours a day.

[Biomega]

With this low level of loot drop rate, they should implement a "loot lock" system to allow players to opt out of loot from bosses which drop crap loot.

I was really hoping for a bonus roll that's 1 per week but 100%. That would have done a LOT.

[Cæli]

Or we could just have loot how it was in TBC/wotlk, you know, when the game was great and had 10mill+ happy players.

The current system is a very transparent attempt to make people stay subbed since loot upgrades are tied to the great vault as opposed to playing the game. Do your 1 mythic+, do a little pvp, do a little raiding, grats you can gear up almost as fast as someone playing 8 hours a day.

as far as I remember, the system was 2 to 3 loot for 25 players per boss, plus heroic bosses/bonus "objectives/containers" dropping items to collect and to exchange for very powerful gear. one gear could be farmed in around 10 hours

[intenz]

as far as I remember, the system was 2 to 3 loot for 25 players per boss, plus heroic bosses/bonus "objectives/containers" dropping items to collect and to exchange for very powerful gear. one gear could be farmed in around 10 hours

there was a badge system so you can buy exactly the gear you need by grinding content and it was good enough for entry level raiding. on the pvp side arena point cap scaled with rating so hardcore pvpers could gear up much faster without being timegated.

Just two examples of how the game has gone backwards from a winning system. It's laziness ultimately, it's much easier to implement loot-boxes (great vault) to keep players subbing month after month rather than designing rewarding gear systems.

Nothing breaks player immersion like the realisation that you're on a treadmill. It what suddenly wore people out in legion and BFA. All players want is their time and effort to be reflected in their loot like it was in the past.

[bloodykiller86]

Suggested to greatly decrease loot in raids? I'm at this very moment on Sire and not a single drop I got, just anima and gold, anima and gold, anima and gold. Not sure how this equates to good raid design, I don't get it.

its week what 3 now that we have the raid? you're not gonna get everything at once lol relax and keep running it. even before i would run shit and never get shit lol