Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny Poisoned

[Felya]

The only way for Russia to join NATO is via national suicide, as you can't join an organization whose purpose is to scratch you from the face of the Earth without dying.

They were kicked out for invading and occupying a country... When did you start supporting imperialism? Slavic countries only gained independence 30 years ago. Rebuking Russia, by kicking them out or not letting them join international community, is the least of the punishment that should have been handed out.

[Easo]

Russia back then hoped to join NATO too. As did Putin - until about 2007-2008 when it became clear it'll never happen.

Could you point me out to official condemnations similar to Belarus reactions? Because Google fails to provide any for me.

The best excuse is "continued NATO encroaching that can no longer be tolerated". Doesn't need any Russians, 100% true.

Because they don't mistreat Russians now (everyone left Khazakhstan when nationalism flared there on USSR dissolution), and you still do.

It is really debatable who hoped for what. Putin saying that he talked to Clinton 20 fucking years ago about it means... what, exactly? Politicians talk all the time about theoretical possibilities. There was never a serious attempt by Russia to do this. Let's quote Rogozin "Great powers do not join coalitions, they create them". And yeah, 2008 was definitely the end of any movement, thanks to 08.08.08

About condemnation, which you somehow did not find:

Following a visit to Paris last month, the Council of Europe’s Human Rights Commissioner, Dunja Mijatovic, wrote a memorandum released on Tuesday in which she has also asked the French government to “refrain from introducing excessive restrictions to freedom of peaceful assembly” via a bill currently under debate in parliament.

The United Nations has followed the European Parliament in criticising the policing of some demonstrations staged by 'yellow vest' protestors in France. The UN's High Commissioner for Human Rights condemned what she called the “excessive use of force” used by the police on some occasions.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190216...ettinger-paris
"On Thursday, deputies in the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning the disproportionate use of force against protesters, after a debate on the use by French police of the controversial weapons."

Because Belarus is not the same situation. How many times do I have to say to you to stop putting everything into the same pot? Do you have problems comprehending my quite simple English? Or are you just that disingenious?
On one side - protests against economic policy, which were allowed, but tended to devolve into de facto riots and looting, which obviously forces police to keep them in line versus usurpation of power and fake elections, with peaceful protests, which were not allowed in the first place (I so loved the people in civilian clothes running to microphones to turn them off) and were supressed by police and other forces from the start, with goverment forces deliberately targeting protesters from the very start.
Oh yeah, and Macron changed his policy. As opposed to Lukash, who is clinging to power still.

"But but but official language REEEEEE". That is the supposed mistreatment Moscow is crying about. None of these countries have Russian as the official language yet Moscow is silent. Also, no everyone did not leave Kazakhstan, ~20% of the country are Russians.
So, any more lies, Shalcker? Because you keep lying again and again and again.

[Milchshake]

It is really debatable who hoped for what. Putin saying that he talked to Clinton 20 fucking years ago about it means... what, exactly? Politicians talk all the time about theoretical possibilities. There was never a serious attempt by Russia to do this. Let's quote Rogozin "Great powers do not join coalitions, they create them". And yeah, 2008 was definitely the end of any movement, thanks to 08.08.08

About condemnation, which you somehow did not find:




https://www.france24.com/en/20190216...ettinger-paris
"On Thursday, deputies in the European Parliament passed a resolution condemning the disproportionate use of force against protesters, after a debate on the use by French police of the controversial weapons."

Because Belarus is not the same situation. How many times do I have to say to you to stop putting everything into the same pot? Do you have problems comprehending my quite simple English? Or are you just that disingenious?
On one side - protests against economic policy, which were allowed, but tended to devolve into de facto riots and looting, which obviously forces police to keep them in line versus usurpation of power and fake elections, with peaceful protests, which were not allowed in the first place (I so loved the people in civilian clothes running to microphones to turn them off) and were supressed by police and other forces from the start, with goverment forces deliberately targeting protesters from the very start.
Oh yeah, and Macron changed his policy. As opposed to Lukash, who is clinging to power still.

"But but but official language REEEEEE". That is the supposed mistreatment Moscow is crying about. None of these countries have Russian as the official language yet Moscow is silent. Also, no everyone did not leave Kazakhstan, ~20% of the country are Russians.
So, any more lies, Shalcker? Because you keep lying again and again and again.

This is a weird lie for our Putin fanboys to be peddling in 2020.
Putin, even Yelstin "We have a full arsenal of nuclear weapons", were very upset about Clinton bombing their genocidal buddy Milosevic. "Fear of NATO" was always a foundational part of their electoral strategy.



But it's fascism 101 with these guys.
Distort truth
Fear of "others"

[Yadryonych]

The only way for Russia to join NATO is via national suicide.

Nope, we tried that in 1991, didn't work

[Shalcker]

They were kicked out for invading and occupying a country...

Still waiting for US to get kicked out of Iraq.

[Xarkan]

Nope, we tried that in 1991, didn't work

You are lamenting the break up of the soviet union? You want to shed tears over a reduction Russian suppresion of other people?

Edit: Lets be clear.. comments like what i quoted is why Shalckers comments that the Baltics should not have been afraid sounds rather hollow

[Shalcker]

You are lamenting the break up of the soviet union? You want to shed tears over a reduction Russian suppresion of other people?

Sudden dissolution created a lot of conflicts that still flare up to this day, like recent Karabakh war, as well as created economic devastation by breaking supply chains.

It isn't obvious that it was strictly necessary. A lot of things could work much better with more gradual process.

Imagine end of USA imperialism by declaring every state independent again... it's not hard to guess plenty of people will lament old days and say that things could be done differently.

[Xarkan]

Sudden dissolution created a lot of conflicts that still flare up to this day, like recent Karabakh war, as well as created economic devastation by breaking supply chains.

It isn't obvious that it was strictly necessary. A lot of things could work much better with more gradual process.

Imagine end of USA imperialism by declaring every state independent again... it's not hard to guess plenty of people will lament old days and say that things could be done differently.

Perhaps but those that lament the loss of the soviet union are a good reason that others must and should seek protection should that kind of person gain power and strive to reimplement that totalitarian horror regime in question

Also i think a break up of the USA would probably ultimately be a good thing, not just for the rest of the world but for a vast majority of americans that have become completely incompatible with one another

[Shalcker]

Perhaps but those that lament the loss of the soviet union are a good reason that others must and should seek protection should that kind of person gain power and strive to reimplement that totalitarian horror regime in question

When people look back at USSR with fondness it isn't generally due to fondness of totalitarian horror regimes... but rather due to aspects of it that still seem superior to current situation - or aspects that could be kept and shift with times rather then be thrown out entirely.

Plus USSR dissolution was put on referendum (same year it actually happened) and had overwhelming majority voting against it, so it was anti-democratic too.

You could also see it as just another act of totalitarian control in a series - center throwing away "useless" republics to exploit them in a way where you don't owe them anything (at least USSR had practical obligations to their well-being) and you still get everything you need from them.

Also i think a break up of the USA would probably ultimately be a good thing, not just for the rest of the world but for a vast majority of americans that have become completely incompatible with one another

Some of USSR "nostalgia" is also based on the fact that USA trajectory without proper USSR counter-weight seems to go off rails, with China still not feeling like a proper "counter" in cultural context.

[Easo]

Shalcker, it is literally the same nostlagia as "everyone had work back then, so awesome". Rose tinted glasses, which forget the lack of everything outside of absolute basics (and sometimes even those), the blat system, be in party or forever work as low class worker, impressive level of corruption, etc.
Nothing USSR had can be excused with couple of million dead by executions and labour camps. West managed the same without them. You know, the same "aspects". You are arguing for reforming a system which had already failed. No one reforms those, but tears them down and creates new ones.

Baltics very overwhelmingly voted for getting the fuck out of it. It was absolutely democratic. Baltic Road alone should be enough to prove to anyone, even you, how much support from population there was. And do dare to tell me that Moscow should have had any say in that, unless you wanna go on with that imperialist angle again.

[zealo]

You are lamenting the break up of the soviet union? You want to shed tears over a reduction Russian suppresion of other people?

Edit: Lets be clear.. comments like what i quoted is why Shalckers comments that the Baltics should not have been afraid sounds rather hollow

The 90s in Russia were exceptionally shitty times.

It's no wonder some Russians believe they'd be better off if the soviet union was still there.

[Shalcker]

Shalcker, it is literally the same nostlagia as "everyone had work back then, so awesome". Rose tinted glasses, which forget the lack of everything outside of absolute basics (and sometimes even those), the blat system, be in party or forever work as low class worker, impressive level of corruption, etc.

Given that resulting society is seen as even more corrupt and unequal, "forever work" while being allowed guaranteed basics is often seen superior to modern "forever debt" wage slavery with no guarantees at all.

And low class workers were arguably shafted the most.

Nothing USSR had can be excused with couple of million dead by executions and labour camps. West managed the same without them. You know, the same "aspects". You are arguing for reforming a system which had already failed. No one reforms those, but tears them down and creates new ones.

The failure itself is result of reforms; just like modern deterioration of US politics is in part result of campaign financing reforms opening it up to corporate sponsorships.

Baltics very overwhelmingly voted for getting the fuck out of it. It was absolutely democratic. Baltic Road alone should be enough to prove to anyone, even you, how much support from population there was. And do dare to tell me that Moscow should have had any say in that, unless you wanna go on with that imperialist angle again.

And now 30 years later you still don't feel secure enough at it, even despite being in EU and NATO.

[Yadryonych]

You are lamenting the break up of the soviet union?

Yes that was a very sad and tragic moment.

You want to shed tears over a reduction Russian suppresion of other people?

What suppression? Russian people were the most disadvantaged people then. Even now Russian people are the nwords of the world, speaking in John Lennon's terms

[Xarkan]

Yes that was a very sad and tragic moment.



What suppression? Russian people were the most disadvantaged people then. Even now Russian people are the nwords of the world, speaking in John Lennon's terms

Should have said oppression really

The most disadvantaged people? Impressive.. everything in (And about) that quote is wrong

[Easo]

Some news about the topic - new accusations against Navalny:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55477891

P.S.
This thread gets better and better with each passing day. Now Russians were the ones mostly suffering under USSR? Oh lol.
We already talked about who received what in the union, but OK, keep thinking that Moscow just fed others. Not like the rose glasses here will change their views. Truly fascinating.

Given that resulting society is seen as even more corrupt and unequal, "forever work" while being allowed guaranteed basics is often seen superior to modern "forever debt" wage slavery with no guarantees at all.

And low class workers were arguably shafted the most.

The failure itself is result of reforms; just like modern deterioration of US politics is in part result of campaign financing reforms opening it up to corporate sponsorships.

And now 30 years later you still don't feel secure enough at it, even despite being in EU and NATO.

Is seen by whom? We are living in the best times ever to be had, only difference is media accessibility thus all negativity easier to see.
Rose tinted glasses...

Obvious question is - why the reforms were needed if all was fine and dandy before? Obvious answer - because it was not, in fact, fine and dandy before.

We are feeling quite secure, actually. It does not change the fact that Russia is an unfriendly neighbour thus one should simply be wary.
EU is an economic/trade alliance, btw, nothing to do with security.

[Easo]

If you have ever left Latvia during USSR times, you would have known that. Today here in Estonia, and most likely in Latvia, nationalists heavily keep pushing their view, which is not based on reality. So far we had 30 years of nationalists in power, they went as far as making people who ran Nazi camps national heroes because they were against communists. Commies were bad, but nazis were also bad.

USSR was not a Russian only project. It was a joint project of commies from all over former USSR. People forget that the biggest cunts were from Georgia (Stalin) and Ukraine (Khrushchev, who, among other bad things, also gifted Crimea to Ukraine, which has led to shitshow we have today). Plenty of Estonians and Latvians were there too.

Everyone suffered because of commies, not because of Russians. Russians have suffered too. Baltics are among those who suffered the least, yet whining the most.

Ah yes, you would be the grandpa who could leave?
Sure, blame nationalists, in the meantime we know who sent who to Sibera in cattle carts and who did occupy us.

[Shalcker]

Ah yes, you would be the grandpa who could leave?
Sure, blame nationalists, in the meantime we know who sent who to Sibera in cattle carts and who did occupy us.

Red Latvian Riflemen were a thing too - and critical enough to be remembered.

[Easo]

Sure, plenty of people went to Siberia, but, which might be a news to you, it wasn't just Latvians and Estonians. Stalin was the biggest cunt of them all and he wasn't even Russian. But Russians are bad!!!!!

As for occupation, at least here in Estonia, it was completely voluntary. What you don't hear from those nationalists is how bad it was during freedom times. I did hear plenty of stories from my grandparents about great Estonian freedom, where people were starving because country couldn't produce enough food and people had pretty much nothing. Before WW2 political elite has changed, they were considering joining USSR and they did join when offered. Those people are today considered traitors, but what happened did happen and Estonia did join USSR voluntarily. In exchange country got economical help and kept getting it until fall of USSR.

Bad thing is after 30 years of nationalists in power rewriting history, blaming everything on Russians and praising Nazis, young people today are too brainwashed.

You... are you even aware what standard of living Baltics had before WW2? Literacy? My grandgrandparents were simple peasants (unless you are quite old your grandparents never saw pre-war republics... ), somehow they never starved, nor could be called poor.
No Baltic state wanted to joing USSR, the actual fucking insane fuck are you talking about? Local comparties were basically non-existant, no one had forgotten the red terror.

Jesus fucking christ who let you on the internet, Internet Research Agency?

Red Latvian Riflemen were a thing too - and critical enough to be remembered.

Umm yes, not sure what they have to do with 1940 occupations and deportations? Those who remained (and most did not) in USSR were all purged in 1937-1938 (such a gift for loyalty to one of the best regiments the commies had in Civil War, first commander of the Red Army, Kremlin's guards, etc.).

[Shalcker]

Umm yes, not sure what they have to do with 1940 occupations and deportations? Those who remained (and most did not) in USSR were all purged in 1937-1938 (such a gift for loyalty to one of the best regiments the commies had in Civil War, first commander of the Red Army, Kremlin's guards, etc.).

Got to note that article says many RLRs returned to Latvia after occupation; it's the Latvians that got to high party position and weren't part of Red Latvian Riflemen that were purged ("The most famous pre-World War II Soviet Communist leaders from Latvia were not from the Red Riflemen").

It shows that plenty of Latvians contributed to USSR existence even before occupation; but sure, blaming Russians is much easier.

[Xarkan]

He's right. In Baltic we were living a good life during USSR.

Except where he did not talk about the USSR anymore

What suppression? Russian people were the most disadvantaged people then. Even now Russian people are the nwords of the world, speaking in John Lennon's terms

He made it about the entire world, not the ussr, not eastern europe

If you cannot find people more disadvantaged at the time or more maligned than russians now then you have not been paying attention