Bring back warforging!

[TheRevenantHero]

No they dont. Everyone asking for increased loot is an entitle child that just needs to sit down and be silent cause they are the worst part of the gaming community and need to be removed.

Like cancer cells. Cut out of the games playerbase.

No. The worst part of the community are gatekeeping elitists like you. They NEED to increase loot drop rates because they're utterly abysmal right now. Doing numerous dungeons in a row with no gear will do nothing but make players stop playing because there is no point. Why keep doing content if you're going to get shafted when it comes to loot drop rates?

[Kolvarg]

I don't understand this mentality AT ALL.

I mean, it's not that complicated. The less frequently you are rewarded, the more special the reward is/feels. It doesn't necessarily make it a better system for everyone, but it does make loot feel more meaningful.

lmfao no it is not. This expansion is the worst they've ever done. Blizzard somehow managed to make an expansion that's worse than WoD in every single way. They reduced loot drops AND removed bad luck prevention.

Do you really need to make exaggerated statements like that to make your point? It's nearly objectively wrong that the game is currently worse than WoD, in all but the most subjective parameters.

In WoD PvP gearing was worse, raid gearing was about the same, and the entirety of the rest of the content did not have any relevant rewards. And there was no weekly vault.

As far as I'm concerned the current system is a very good base, just needs improvement. Either keep the same randomness but increase the drop rates (meh), or decrease the randomness by adding deterministic gearing and bad luck protection on top of the random.

[Xath]

WQ gear is useless, so having TF/WF for it would be nice for alts at least.

I like not having to do every gear world quest thanks

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No. The worst part of the community are gatekeeping elitists like you. They NEED to increase loot drop rates because they're utterly abysmal right now. Doing numerous dungeons in a row with no gear will do nothing but make players stop playing because there is no point. Why keep doing content if you're going to get shafted when it comes to loot drop rates?

He's not an elitist he's probably someone who barely plays the game. Drop rates don't necessarily need to increase but there does need to be an alternate method of gear acquisition. Say every other raid clear you can buy one specific piece that can come from any boss you have killed same amount of currency for all items. For M+ It would probably be every 8 dungeons so essentially full clears you could buy a piece of gear based on the highest level you had cleared each dungeon at that would be vault level. Cap currency acquisition such that it's every other week.

[Vitinariy]

Say every other raid clear you can buy one specific piece that can come from any boss you have killed same amount of currency for all items. For M+ It would probably be every 8 dungeons so essentially full clears you could buy a piece of gear based on the highest level you had cleared each dungeon at that would be vault level. Cap currency acquisition such that it's every other week.

They had a great idea with currency in BFA. Just remove all loot. All bosses give currency and you just buy anything you want with that currency. This would be very easy for everyone. They even did it now for PVPers which is why all top raiders have some PVP gear.
Then again, Blizzard would either make prices ridiculous or cap currency acquisition so you have to wait weeks for a decent item...

[NineSpine]

1. Google it and you will find VERY mixed opinions on this. You are more experienced, yes, but with some bosses having additional adds etc, there is still a learning curve. Adding in that some mechanics are now 1 shots that previously were not, you will find VERY mixed opinions on this. But either way, it exists, and to claim you have completed the game without also doing multiple NG+ runs is just not right, because I say so.

2. You mean like......an end boss in a raid? Or are you claiming that not being able to start heroic until you had killed the final boss on normal, even if you had no interest in moving up in difficulty, would suddenly change everyone's sense of completion?

You continue to ignore the reality for many people is they set themselves the goal of finishing the raid on normal, and when they do, they feel a wonderful sense of completion. You are saying those people are wrong to feel that way, because a higher difficulty exists.

I ask you again, who are you to say those people are wrong?

note - you seem to have accidentally forgotten to respond to my comment how you attacked me for using other games as examples, and said they are entirely irrelevant, followed with some very thinly veiled attempts at insults for DARING to use a different game as a comparison, and now your entire argument is built around exactly that - other games and leisure activities. Can you at least admit you were wrong when you said they are not comparable? Or is your entire argument above to be ignored?

I don’t really feel the need to continue engaging with you, because constantly responding to your strawmen is a waste of my time. If you want to actually discuss this, let me know, but as long as you continue to make shit up (like that I said anyone is “wrong” for setting their own goals) and just be condescending and argumentative for the sake of it, bye.

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The actual data from Blizzard, the only source that can be trusted suggests that the majority of players do not move up in difficulties. These players are finished.

Ok you've dodged the questions again. Please answer them or admit you.made a mistake.and you have no idea what you are talking about.

Again
Why do you think mythic players get more satisfaction over killing bosses than lesser skilled players?

Why do you believe a player cannot finish a game on a lower difficulty?

I never said a player cannot finish a game on a lower difficulty. I’m pretty much done engaging with bad faith attempts to intentionally mischaracterize me for whatever weird internet debate points people think they are racking up.

I’m offering a nuanced critique of the current model of the game based on my experience as a game designer. I’m not claiming everyone else is wrong and I’m the only one who knows anything f. If you don’t know how to talk to people about differing opinions without being a debate edgelord, go talk to someone else,

[Xath]

They had a great idea with currency in BFA. Just remove all loot. All bosses give currency and you just buy anything you want with that currency. This would be very easy for everyone. They even did it now for PVPers which is why all top raiders have some PVP gear.
Then again, Blizzard would either make prices ridiculous or cap currency acquisition so you have to wait weeks for a decent item...

I wouldn't want to remove all loot but there needs to be a way to acquire pieces that you need which is deterministic. Your idea would more be based around an expansion of the crafting system I think. While a monster hunter type thing would be kind of cool I think it would be way too radical of a departure from current wow badges really wouldn't.

[Teech]

Actually I enjoy the gearing. I have always something to aim for and i'm not done relatively fast. (My Main is not lucky with drops)

[Recovery]

Raiding is all static drops. Heroic is the endgame for a lot of people. When you raid heroic enough, you eventually get all the drops. It would just be nice to at least have a reason to keep going once that happens.

Its the same for mythic. Once you get all of the drops, there is no reason to keep going.

People like being able to be "done" for a bit, between content patches.

Once youve achieved everything you can achieve in heroic raid, maybe you should try working on some of the other stuff the game has to offer... Meta achievs for dungeons / raid, collectables, pvp, level and gear alt, etc. Theres alot you can do to occupy your time. We dont like being forced to spend every second in game focus on one character and one thing. BFA taught us that, for sure. The ability to be "done" is huge.

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Is it really their fault when that's exactly what Blizzard has been promoting more and more ever since Vanilla?

I mean, kinda.

Its a generational thing.

The newer generations seem to have this mentality in all aspects of life.

They want it and they want it now. If they arent rewarded instantly, its not worth to them.

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Blizzard would either make prices ridiculous or cap currency acquisition so you have to wait weeks for a decent item...

Currency system seems to work pretty well for pvp. Just copy paste.

Although, i think part of the reason it works well for pvp is due to the rating gates on the pieces.. Idk how you would get the same result for PVE.

[Kolvarg]

The newer generations seem to have this mentality in all aspects of life.

They want it and they want it now. If they arent rewarded instantly, its not worth to them.

Ok, but is that a result of intentional choices? Or just the result of the environment the newer generations grew up in, and the media they've been exposed to?

Games and other media use instant gratification as a means to attract and maintain player engagement, and this has been happening more and more, over the years. So if the younger generations truly are more prone to being "instant gratification junkies", is it really their fault, or a consequence of how they were raised and how media is intentionally made to be addictive?

I mean, if a person has an alcohol addiction because they have been drinking alcohol daily since childhood - how much of it is the person's fault, and how much is the parents' for allowing it, and society for enabling it for the sake of profit?


To go back to WoW context, the game has always been Skinner box like. Add to that that with each expansion, the game became even more casual friendly, enabling and promoting more and more short but repeating sessions, with more and more instant gratification. If the "Instant gratification junkies" are part of the playerbase in the first place, it's because Blizzard designed the game to target and to some extent even exploit them. So it's only natural that they are unhappy when they now, after years of walking in this direction, start going back.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, mind you. I'm just saying I don't blame the people for not liking design decisions, I blame Blizzard for consistently targeting an audience wider than they can realistically please.

[Speedlance]

They should have kept coins and added some special once for m+ only.

[Recovery]

Ok, but is that a result of intentional choices? Or just the result of the environment the newer generations grew up in, and the media they've been exposed to?

Games and other media use instant gratification as a means to attract and maintain player engagement, and this has been happening more and more, over the years. So if the younger generations truly are more prone to being "instant gratification junkies", is it really their fault, or a consequence of how they were raised and how media is intentionally made to be addictive?

I mean, if a person has an alcohol addiction because they have been drinking alcohol daily since childhood - how much of it is the person's fault, and how much is the parents' for allowing it, and society for enabling it for the sake of profit?


To go back to WoW context, the game has always been Skinner box like. Add to that that with each expansion, the game became even more casual friendly, enabling and promoting more and more short but repeating sessions, with more and more instant gratification. If the "Instant gratification junkies" are part of the playerbase in the first place, it's because Blizzard designed the game to target and to some extent even exploit them. So it's only natural that they are unhappy when they now, after years of walking in this direction, start going back.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, mind you. I'm just saying I don't blame the people for not liking design decisions, I blame Blizzard for consistently targeting an audience wider than they can realistically please.

I dont disagree with anything you said, actually.
Its probably not their faults. However, I feel as though it's been concluded that an instant gratification system in wow is not the way to go - At least not completely.

In some aspects, instant gratification or rewards for little effort / time invested is probably good.

But there are things that this just cant be the case with. I would venture to say that most players enjoy the prestige that comes with some things in wow.

Some examples are Glad mounts / pvp titles, mythic dungeon rewards, mythic raid title, etc. These things FOR SURE should not be an instant gratification deal.
I believe that gear cant really be either as it leads to obtaining the other things that should be prestigious easier / faster.

Also, in a system where youre rewarded instantly, you never win. You get used to the dopamine rush. Rewards stop even feeling like rewards and seem more like chores. This was BFA imo.

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They should have kept coins and added some special once for m+ only.

M+ should reward more mounts, title, and cosmetics. That should be the incentive, just as its the incentive for pvp. Character power should only be a reward up to a point.

For example, you stop gaining player power in pvp at 2400 rating. Afterwards, its only cosmetic rewards, and few at that.

Maybe they can do the same thing for M+, and cut it off at +15 or something.

I thought the reward system for challenge modes was right on the money. Then they went and took some of the rewards away from people, such as the titles earned for having fastest time on server.

sigh, blizzard.

[Sunderella]

Although, i think part of the reason it works well for pvp is due to the rating gates on the pieces.. Idk how you would get the same result for PVE.

Pretty easy actually. Blizz-implemented rio score for M+.

[Tadkins]

Once youve achieved everything you can achieve in heroic raid, maybe you should try working on some of the other stuff the game has to offer... Meta achievs for dungeons / raid, collectables, pvp, level and gear alt, etc. Theres alot you can do to occupy your time. We dont like being forced to spend every second in game focus on one character and one thing. BFA taught us that, for sure. The ability to be "done" is huge.

I do quite a bit of that as well. I only focus on one character though. I consolidate all my efforts and achievements on a single main. My only other character is a boosted rogue that I use to open lockboxes and mail stuff to to throw things on the AH.

Your suggestion does nothing to solve my issue. I'm still obligated to help my guild on raid nights but I gain absolutely nothing from it after the 20th clear.

[Recovery]

I do quite a bit of that as well. I only focus on one character though. I consolidate all my efforts and achievements on a single main. My only other character is a boosted rogue that I use to open lockboxes and mail stuff to to throw things on the AH.

Your suggestion does nothing to solve my issue. I'm still obligated to help my guild on raid nights but I gain absolutely nothing from it after the 20th clear.

Maybe you should consider moving on to another guild that wants to progress further than heroic.. Or a guild that wont make you continue coming when you get nothing out of it.. Or tell your guild that you dont want to come anymore, after farming it for the 20th time.

[Tadkins]

Because abandoning them would be a messed up thing to do after all they've done for me.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

wf/tf is vastly superior to the current model.

Please explain how... or is this another example of you regurgitating "hot" takes with absolutely nothing behind them?


You know, like your usual.

[Stormwolf64]

The other answers to my post and this whole thread will tell you that he is not alone.

Well, if you alone see no problem with it and "everyone" else complains. Logically, who do you think might be right in that situation?

[Pawpurr]

The loot system now is atrocious. WF/TF was terrible but the loot drought we're in right now is even worse.

Can you explain exactly how it is worse?

"omg I never get drops ((" is not a valid answer btw, Let's use your big boy words.

[Yuli]

Well, if you alone see no problem with it and "everyone" else complains. Logically, who do you think might be right in that situation?

Well, this thread will tell you that I'm not alone either. I don't know what's right. And I don't ask that of someone because there is no right or wrong here.

[Stormwolf64]

Well, this thread will tell you that I'm not alone either. I don't know what's right. And I don't ask that of someone because there is no right or wrong here.

So in conclusion: Some like it and some don't. That's just how everything is. What's the problem then?