Why is Vers starting to sim higher than Crit/haste?

[pawu]

Running sims on my character and guild mates, we are finding now that its moving towards Mastery > Versatility > Crit > Haste. Previously it was Master > Haste > Crit > Vers

P.s are there still any decent theorycrafting sites for classes these days?

[Kumorii]

Because every stat have diminishing returns...the more of the stat you have the less valuable it becomes.

[dread05]

Because every stat have diminishing returns...the more of the stat you have the less valuable it becomes.

That but not exactly, the more of a stat you have, the more vaulable the other stats become.

[ellieg]

All stats are interconnected. As you get more crit, your attacks will do double dmg more often. At a certain point, you want more haste so that you're doing more attacks that will do double dmg. With enough critical and haste, you want more verse so that those more frequent crits hit harder. Every new piece of gear slightly changes your weights until one hits a tipping point

[Segus1992]

That but not exactly, the more of a stat you have, the more vaulable the other stats become.

Yep, though the difference is mostly semantical, what happens isn't that the value of the stat itself lessens (though Blizzard did introduce that, as far as I know that doesn't happen until very high numbers), but that when you have 10% damage via Versatility, 1% haste is 1% of 110, not 100 (which another % of Versatility would be).

[Tradu]

That but not exactly, the more of a stat you have, the more vaulable the other stats become.

Except in Shadowlands there's also actual DR. It's unlikely OP actually hit that already, but it definitely exists.

[cozzri]

Except in Shadowlands there's also actual DR. It's unlikely OP actually hit that already, but it definitely exists.

Is there a way to find out what the diminishing return numbers are? Its kind of lame that my stats aren't working because of some arbitrary limitation; finding items doesn't even feel fun anymore....

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That but not exactly, the more of a stat you have, the more vaulable the other stats become.

Why even have variable stats on gear if they all balance each other out with DR, just take off stats off and just have ilvl and level requirement under the item name; i'snt this what Diablo 4 is doing?

[WorcesterSauce]

Is there a way to find out what the diminishing return numbers are? Its kind of lame that my stats aren't working because of some arbitrary limitation; finding items doesn't even feel fun anymore....

https://www.wowhead.com/news=317580/...in-shadowlands

Here you go my man. It's not something you realistically need to worry about this patch.

[Tradu]

Is there a way to find out what the diminishing return numbers are? Its kind of lame that my stats aren't working because of some arbitrary limitation; finding items doesn't even feel fun anymore....

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Why even have variable stats on gear if they all balance each other out with DR, just take off stats off and just have ilvl and level requirement under the item name (i'snt this what Diablo 4 is doing?

I use an addon called True Stat Values which puts it in the stat tooltip on your character sheet and in trinket tooltips.

[thesmall001]

Except in Shadowlands there's also actual DR. It's unlikely OP actually hit that already, but it definitely exists.

No, they knew what they were saying, diminishing returns don't stop a stat being valuable; it just means other stats are worth more per point than the stat that has reached DRs. DRs just mean that the weight of a point (which might be 0.75 vs the others which might be 0.5) is reduced such that other stats can compete. It doesn't make the stat less valuable, inherently, it just means that you get diminished... returns.

[Segus1992]

Is there a way to find out what the diminishing return numbers are? Its kind of lame that my stats aren't working because of some arbitrary limitation; finding items doesn't even feel fun anymore....

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Why even have variable stats on gear if they all balance each other out with DR, just take off stats off and just have ilvl and level requirement under the item name; i'snt this what Diablo 4 is doing?

The only DR you're experiencing is natural DR, nothing to do with Blizzard implementing a softcap to prevent reaching 100%+ haste. Natural DR is simply that when you have 0% Versatility, 1% will increase your damage by exactly 1%, but when you have 20%, 1% will increase your damage by the same amount as it did originally, ie if you had 100 DPS at 0% Versatility it'd give 1 DPS, but 1% Versatility still gives 1 DPS at 120 DPS, when you have 20% Versatility (which is roughly 0.8% damage).

This is just how math works with stats, and it's always been the case.

Conversely, this is actually a good thing for damage reduction (2% Versatility gives 1 damage reduction at 100 damage and 0% Versatility (1% damage reduction), but will give the same at 80 damage taken with 40% Versatility, which becomes 1.25% damage reduction) - which is why you still want to stack Versatility forever for PvP.

[Tradu]

No, they knew what they were saying, diminishing returns don't stop a stat being valuable; it just means other stats are worth more per point than the stat that has reached DRs. DRs just mean that the weight of a point (which might be 0.75 vs the others which might be 0.5) is reduced such that other stats can compete. It doesn't make the stat less valuable, inherently, it just means that you get diminished... returns.

DR definitely does make the stat less valuable, that's the whole point. Once you go high enough, you get less haste % per haste rating. That's quite literally haste rating being less valuable than previously.

[Packmule]

Running sims on my character and guild mates, we are finding now that its moving towards Mastery > Versatility > Crit > Haste. Previously it was Master > Haste > Crit > Vers


P.s are there still any decent theorycrafting sites for classes these days?

What class and specc do you play? And which covenant?

[Segus1992]

DR definitely does make the stat less valuable, that's the whole point. Once you go high enough, you get less haste % per haste rating. That's quite literally haste rating being less valuable than previously.

Except you even proved yourself that that type of DR doesn't exist with current gear levels. The DR that does exist is only the form that always has, and that doesn't make the stat itself weaker.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

The only DR you're experiencing is natural DR, nothing to do with Blizzard implementing a softcap to prevent reaching 100%+ haste. Natural DR is simply that when you have 0% Versatility, 1% will increase your damage by exactly 1%, but when you have 20%, 1% will increase your damage by the same amount as it did originally, ie if you had 100 DPS at 0% Versatility it'd give 1 DPS, but 1% Versatility still gives 1 DPS at 120 DPS, when you have 20% Versatility (which is roughly 0.8% damage).

This is just how math works with stats, and it's always been the case.

No, Blizzard added actual DR to the stat ratings with SL. People can already run into that DR with trinket procs.

https://www.wowhead.com/guides/dimin...ld-of-warcraft

There still is the standard DR, but Blizzard added another layer of DR that applies directly to the stat ratings with SL.

[Tradu]

Except you even proved yourself that that type of DR doesn't exist with current gear levels. The DR that does exist is only the form that always has, and that doesn't make the stat itself weaker.

Not relevant and also not true. It exists in the game, current gear levels aren't relevant. It affects trinket procs(as you can see, I lose around 9 mastery to DR on the Bell active), PvPers are hitting DR on vers and my mage is close to hitting DR on haste without mythic gear.

[Segus1992]

No, Blizzard added actual DR to the stat ratings with SL. People can already run into that DR with trinket procs.

https://www.wowhead.com/guides/dimin...ld-of-warcraft

There still is the standard DR, but Blizzard added another layer of DR that applies directly to the stat ratings with SL.

Not relevant and also not true. It affects trinket procs(as you can see, I lose around 9 mastery to DR on the Bell active), PvPers are hitting DR on vers and my mage is close to hitting DR on haste without mythic gear.

Yes I know, but the ranges of that DR isn't going to influence simming at our gear levels except for in wildly extreme cases, and that's not going to make a stat jump from #4 to #2 even then.

Not relevant? This is a thread about how Versatility becomes #2 when Crit and Haste are higher normally. That DR isn't going to come even close to having that effect.

[Tradu]

Yes I know, but the ranges of that DR isn't going to influence simming at our gear levels except for in wildly extreme cases, and that's not going to make a stat jump from #3 to #1 even then.

Not relevant? This is a thread about how Versatility becomes #2 when Crit and Haste are higher normally. That DR isn't going to come even close to having that effect.

I was responding to a guy claiming that there's no DR on stats, which is no longer true. I didn't comment on OP's situation at all, I was just expanding on what was already said.

[Segus1992]

I was responding to a guy claiming that there's no DR on stats, which is no longer true. I didn't comment on OP's situation at all, I was just expanding on what was already said.

Unless you're unaware of what DR actually is, what you said is still wrong and that's what I replied to. DR has always existed on stats, and that doesn't make a stat weaker - but other stats stronger comparatively.

The DR Blizzard introduced late BfA is just an additional arbitrary form of DR, and is the far weaker form of DR for everything outside of crazy Corruption stacking (which is why it was introduced).

[Tradu]

Unless you're unaware of what DR actually is, what you said is still wrong and that's what I replied to. DR has always existed on stats, and that doesn't make a stat weaker - but other stats stronger comparatively.

The DR Blizzard introduced late BfA is just an additional arbitrary form of DR, and is the far weaker form of DR for everything outside of crazy Corruption stacking (which is why it was introduced).

DR has not always existed on stats, you literally just explained that. Other stats becoming more valuable is not DR, because by definition DR is gaining less from adding the same thing, which you didn't. You gained the same amount of DPS from your 20th point of haste as your 348th point.

They didn't add it in late BfA, they added it with SL, after corruption was already gone.