Toxic entitlement, condescension, and the gift of io

[Jastall]

You are right. You were talking about 2 levels difference. My bad. How could I confuse these numbers.... You are still wrong with your overall opinion. People are geared right now and 210+ can't be achieved with no means...

EDIT: To be clear. I am stuck at a point where I don't get invites despites having a perfect IO for what is possible for that range. But I don't play a fotm class. Guess what, I still reached that IO. With NON FOTM setups... The system is flawed from start to end because it doesn't factor in player skills. Everyone can buy this shit nowadays.. EDIT2: And I depleted enough keys with players having a higher IO.

I'm playing Fury, and more or less the only way I get in keys anywhere near my range is by running my own. There are so many dummies refusing me because "lol warrior bad" it's not even funny.

[Shyning]

I'm playing Fury, and more or less the only way I get in keys anywhere near my range is by running my own. There are so many dummies refusing me because "lol warrior bad" it's not even funny.

I will prioritize classes that build my group better, considering all utility and damage output but I’ve certainly invited warriors if it makes you feel better. Their kit isn’t great but it’s solid damage with an interrupt and a party wide cool down

[WaltherLeopold]

of course the desire exist, but blizzard to a large extend can control the specifics of what's possible/allowed if they felt so inclined.

e.g. limit armory querries to 100 per day per IP/account or some such, and raider.io dies overnight while still allowing individuals to vet more than enough people.

What's the point though? Just to kill R.io, a tool we both agree that players want.

[Hellobolis]

What's the point though? Just to kill R.io, a tool we both agree that players want.

i want r.io when i want to do a +18.

i think it's bothersome when i want to do a +14/15 on my alt, im more or less forced to make an account on r.io or have a much harder time getting into groups. (though i admit +15s still aren't quite that trivial yet to require no vouching at all).

i think it hurts the game in keys 10 and below.

so i think it's worth the trade off to make it take 10-15mins to vouch people to make a +18 group if that means you don't have to deal with dipshits crying about rating in a +7.

[Shyning]

i want r.io when i want to do a +18.

i think it's bothersome when i want to do a +14/15 on my alt, im more or less forced to make an account on r.io or have a much harder time getting into groups. (though i admit +15s still aren't quite that trivial yet to require no vouching at all).

i think it hurts the game in keys 10 and below.

so i think it's worth the trade off to make it take 10-15mins to vouch people to make a +18 group if that means you don't have to deal with dipshits crying about rating in a +7.

huh? Io shows your mains score when you’re on an alt. you do 18s..? And got to that point without taking the 1 minute to log into io so the site knows your alts?

[Raugnaut]

You get so many damn sign-ups for higher keys it's crazy. There aren't that many 15 keys listed, and every single player who thinks they got what it takes signs up for it, straight to the sign-up limit. And since Blizzards base UI for that is pretty shitty, like most of Blizzard's base systems in the game, as a group leader you have so MUCH choice that you can pick what you want.

I feel that the issue is with Keys themselves. The Key needs to be merged into the dungeon - You go into a M0. You then select the challengers pedastal (Or whatever it's called now), and you can select the difficulty the player is qualified for (Increased by best time, similar to the GR system in D3). Then the other 4 players get a yes/no notice (To prevent trolling in M0 content) to do the key. Then you go.

If your tank makes a mistake, it's ok - leave the instance and restarts. If someone DCs, that's fine too - Leave and restart. If your group doesn't have the gear or skill, that's also fine - You can just leave the instance, restart, and go back in on 1-2 lvls lower.

But atm, it's literally do-or-die. Once you use that key, that's it - There's no second chance, no safety net. You either time it and upgrade the key, or fail it and the key drops a level.

So swapping it to be more like GRs in terms of how you do the difficulty, but without the need for a inventory-slot hogging key would be perfect.

[WaltherLeopold]

i want r.io when i want to do a +18.

i think it's bothersome when i want to do a +14/15 on my alt, im more or less forced to make an account on r.io or have a much harder time getting into groups. (though i admit +15s still aren't quite that trivial yet to require no vouching at all).

i think it hurts the game in keys 10 and below.

so i think it's worth the trade off to make it take 10-15mins to vouch people to make a +18 group if that means you don't have to deal with dipshits crying about rating in a +7.

Weird way to go about it, personally I am not at all bothered by anyone's whining on the internet.

[nocturnus]

Oh another “look how good I am and how important this video game is” thread.

How original.

[crusadernero]

My issue is more with the very steep learning curve for players (particularly tanks) who want to casually do m+. The game format is not at all conducive to that playstyle because to be effective you need a lot of prior knowledge of the dungeon. Hardcore players watch videos, read guides, play on the beta, and gdt that knowledge fairly quickly, but us plebs suffer for months while normal players figure it out.

As a result, you end up with a lot of players doing +15s and saying “this is easy noobs” while others fail constantly on plus 8. The mechanical complexity is designed for mythic raiders, not someone like me who plays maybe 5 hours a week. Legion was much better because mechanics were more forgiving at lower keystone levels.

Yes, 100%. The dungeon scene is leaning towards the Esports and more "Pro scene" than it ever has before. It started with legion and it will only continue to grow in that direction. What we end up with is what you describe and m+ ends up being a frustrating part of wows max level content.

Even if the wrong affixes are up, people dont bother with dungeons for a week. Imagine creating content that makes people dont do it, content that has been largely popular since vanilla.

[Ragnarohk]

I was pugging heroic NAthria earlier when I suddenly had an epiphany.

People talking about rio, DPS and logs. One of them was drunk, another burping constantly in discord, many using swear words and degrading people, unemployed couch potatos. These are the people telling me i'm not good enough? Naaaah, i'm out. I have better things to do with my life.

[crusadernero]

You get so many damn sign-ups for higher keys it's crazy. There aren't that many 15 keys listed, and every single player who thinks they got what it takes signs up for it, straight to the sign-up limit. And since Blizzards base UI for that is pretty shitty, like most of Blizzard's base systems in the game, as a group leader you have so MUCH choice that you can pick what you want.

I feel that the issue is with Keys themselves. The Key needs to be merged into the dungeon - You go into a M0. You then select the challengers pedastal (Or whatever it's called now), and you can select the difficulty the player is qualified for (Increased by best time, similar to the GR system in D3). Then the other 4 players get a yes/no notice (To prevent trolling in M0 content) to do the key. Then you go.

If your tank makes a mistake, it's ok - leave the instance and restarts. If someone DCs, that's fine too - Leave and restart. If your group doesn't have the gear or skill, that's also fine - You can just leave the instance, restart, and go back in on 1-2 lvls lower.

But atm, it's literally do-or-die. Once you use that key, that's it - There's no second chance, no safety net. You either time it and upgrade the key, or fail it and the key drops a level.

So swapping it to be more like GRs in terms of how you do the difficulty, but without the need for a inventory-slot hogging key would be perfect.

they need to expand on the m+ concept if they want this to be a key part of max level content in the future. Something along the lines of what you describe, or something that at the very least engages more people into doing it. As you said - its do or die right now.

[kaintk]

lol, i understand that for 10+ keys, you should never pick someone without experience because they dont know the pathway of each dungeon and particular strat etc..

but saying you have to grind ioraid with each level above 10 ? its dogs*** lol

the only difference is the damage needed and the domg done by mobs, the strat stay the same, the aoe zone from mob dont magically become more big and they dont gain other skills, the strat is the same, only the dmg/health go up

[crusadernero]

lol, i understand that for 10+ keys, you should never pick someone without experience because they dont know the pathway of each dungeon and particular strat etc..

but saying you have to grind ioraid with each level above 10 ? its dogs*** lol

the only difference is the damage needed and the domg done by mobs, the strat stay the same, the aoe zone from mob dont magically become more big and they dont gain other skills, the strat is the same, only the dmg/health go up

The problem is that the mentality from +15(or higher) dungeons spreads down to every piece of m+ key run. Even at lower m+ keys people demand silly scores.

[Bigbazz]

I think working hard to get what you want pays off, and complaining about fairness gets nothing. I think worse, complaining about io is really to complain about yourself. It is after all, just data.

I think you miss the point here. A lot of the RIO complaints isnt people with experience in 7s wanting invites to 15s, it's people with experience doing 12s getting declined for 9s, it's people with experience doing 12s trying to push to 13s. It's also people on alts that have lets say 190+ ilvl from who are actually geared and experienced enough to do a +10 but getting declined invites to +3-4 keys because of no score.

So then it's like "sign up to this wesbite so your main score can show on alts" kinda situation.. The addon works, but it creates an uphill struggle for people who are behind the curve, building a score is reliant on getting invited or having people join your keys, and that is a very slow process if you have a low score, therefor making it difficult to get out of that situation.

There are two sides to the coin.

[kranur]

M+ should have the time constraints removed for keys 2-14 to alleviate the "elitist mentality" around it. You finish and key 2-14, 2 piece of gear drop and the key increases. M15 and above to drop higher gear only if completed in time. Say M14 will drop 206 ilvl with 216 vault and M15 in time 216 with 226 vault, if not in time, the same as M14.
Timers on all key can still be kept for organ measurements of those that care, but with no impact.

Though it may be too late to remove the "you need to outgear the fuck out of a key" and have whatever score and go fast and skip and bullshit.

[Shedaar]

Raider.io is downright dumb because it rewards individual score for group effort. What we need is an in-game performance metric that takes into account:

1) your highest cleared dungeon
2) your ilevel when you cleared the said dungeon
3) how much damage you prevented with mitigation, CC, interrupts and other utility abilities
4) your damage and healing output
5) use of consumables
6) not standing in "fire" / doing mechanics correctly

1-6 should be also adjusted for your class and spec.

A system that takes individual performance into account would prevent people from being carried through RMT to high raider.io scores. Moreover, someone clearing a 5+ with perfect play at a low ilevel is better than some smurf demolishing a 15+ with mythic gear while facetanking every mechanic imaginable.

I don't have a problem with a performance metric. I have a problem with performance metrics that don't recognize individual skill and past achievements.

Yes, would you also like french fries with that?

[Naxxramas91]

Firstly, let me say I’m 1,360 io.

Lmao 1360. Stay away from my keys. Thx

[crusadernero]

I did Sanguine Depths +8 yesterday as a 214 tank. I was doing a low level key because I don’t know the dungeon that well.

The gauntlet with necrotic was crazy. The next set of adds always arrived before I could drop my stacks, so the only way to make progress was to kite constantly then do a big pull where I got like 30 stacks in 10 seconds, and then kite again.

My point here: this was a +8, not a +15, and it’s still incredibly mechanic intensive at that level. If you read online +15 people will describe how they do it - use Kyrian to remove one set of stacks, treants get another, earth elemental for a 3rd, etc. - but that level of coordination is far beyond what’s reasonable to expect from a +8 full of casual players.

And that’s the issue here. It’s not raider.io. It’s that these dungeons are far too mechanic heavy for the average player who just logs in one or two nights a week to have a bit of fun and isn’t gunning for the top end.

You end up with groups who outgear keys failing them ridiculously because they didn’t sit down and map out a strategy for the wiping mechanics. It was the same in BFA. These are built for MDI and the +15 crowd. They’re totally inappropriate for the other 90% of us.

Gotta qoute you to, cause you are 100% spot on. Dungeons is leaning towards the MDI & esports scene, leaving most of the playerbase that did dungeons alot previously out. Sure, at the highest level this might be great and many find it cool to watch on twitch(maybe?), but it doenst work for the overall playerbase.

[Freedom]

I was pugging heroic NAthria earlier when I suddenly had an epiphany.

People talking about rio, DPS and logs. One of them was drunk, another burping constantly in discord, many using swear words and degrading people, unemployed couch potatos. These are the people telling me i'm not good enough? Naaaah, i'm out. I have better things to do with my life.

Nah man, you got it all wrong! You just have to git gud. I'm totally not a degenerate ultra loser! Now excuse me, I can't finish this post properly or chek its sepelling because I have to yell at my mommy for more chicken tendies while shitposting until I can get into a M+ run so I can deliberately deplete some scrub's key for the lols.

Non sarcastic response: good, now just run with that epiphany and do something with it.

[Wries]

you cannot perform well at something you just haven’t done and no amount of believing in yourself will change that despite what anime has taught you

I don't sig quotes, but if I did it would be this.

As for how "exact" rio is and how it would be better if they went through the combat logs of each run to calculate participation data etc.. sure I guess that would make sense in the minds of some as it could combat rio boosts. However, it would be an impossibility to account for more advanced strats. Say a dps standing in fire doing dps because he/she knows that they will survive with 20% health can possibly be a good dps making what we call a... "pro gamer move" :P. Add to it that the few boosted characters simply aren't a problem as it is, since we can deduce a 1500+scored player with less than 10 timed runs (also shown on the tooltip) is probably one you should avoid taking.