[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Elim Garak]

So according to your assessment there's a global history of incompetence in the industry considering that all the acclaimed studios have reported delays in there game productions and even cancelled games throughout their history. Blizzard included.

Incompetence in the management mostly. Because if management were competent - incompetent devs would've improved their competence or got fired.

And here's the kicker - Game Dev Industry is as bad as any other industry. It is a business like all the others. Run mostly by simple businessmen who are bad managers and hire bad managers. The bigger the company is the more incompetence there is within its ranks. Hence why AAA is so expensive, gets delayed, and still has bugs.

Just like there are very few decent companies in other industries - the same is true for Game Dev.

[Kyanion]

but battles with 100-200 ships shouldnt provide too much of a problem

Oh sure the game can't handle more than 50 players without total meltdown, 100-200 ships? No problem!

I mean do you think you are some authority on this game when you spout bullshit like this? It just makes you look even worse. This game CAN NOT handle more than 50 people and here you are talking about 100-200 ships piloted by people as 'shouldnt provide too much of a problem'. Are you fucking kidding me??

[Elim Garak]

Starcraft got delayed, Diablo got delayed, WoW was delayed.

The bigger and more complex is the game the harder it is to predict it's development time.

it's not hard to predict how much time it would take to make ANY game. If you have the finalized vision for the game.

The most common problem - it takes too long for a business to go for it

Good managers go: "Ok we need to make a smaller version for this game and expand later"
The best managers go: "Let's make a fast prototype and see what target audience thinks about it - before committing"
Bad managers go: "We'll cut corners", "Crunch culture!", "Bioware magic", "When it's done", "Hire more people", etc

[kenn9530]

Incompetence in the management mostly. Because if management were competent - incompetent devs would've improved their competence or got fired.

And here's the kicker - Game Dev Industry is as bad as any other industry. It is a business like all the others. Run mostly by simple businessmen who are bad managers and hire bad managers. The bigger the company is the more incompetence there is within its ranks. Hence why AAA is so expensive, gets delayed, and still has bugs.

Just like there are very few decent companies in other industries - the same is true for Game Dev.

Unless you work in the actual company and have been to every studio and department then your not going to know what the management is like in a company plain and simple, CiG have had the issue with having to build a company from scratch, facilities and tech for the game, so its doubtful even the best managers in the world could pull things off smoothly, plus the game is not a standard game either so not even the most experienced devs would know everything they needed to do.

Oh sure the game can't handle more than 50 players without total meltdown, 100-200 ships? No problem!

I mean do you think you are some authority on this game when you spout bullshit like this? It just makes you look even worse. This game CAN NOT handle more than 50 people and here you are talking about 100-200 ships piloted by people as 'shouldnt provide too much of a problem'. Are you fucking kidding me??

Are you completely ignorant on what the actual server is currently doing, its doing more than just handling 50 players, it loads everything in that star system from the hundreds of AI, massive cities and massive planets, space stations and much more, to what all the players are doing also, when the servers are able to spread out the load then the handling of a few hundred ships is nothing, they are using the amazon servers. If your going to complain about something at least check some facts first.

[Kyanion]

Unless you work in the actual company and have been to every studio and department then your not going to know what the management is like in a company plain and simple, CiG have had the issue with having to build a company from scratch, facilities and tech for the game, so its doubtful even the best managers in the world could pull things off smoothly, plus the game is not a standard game either so not even the most experienced devs would know everything they needed to do.

Yeah they reached for the sky and fucking failed. They don't have a MMO that's for damn sure. The single player game? Oh it's coming, just keep waiting!

Maybe they should have gone for a more standard game, might have actually managed to do that one. Nah....

[Elim Garak]

Unless you work in the actual company and have been to every studio and department then your not going to know what the management is like in a company plain and simple, CiG have had the issue with having to build a company from scratch, facilities and tech for the game, so its doubtful even the best managers in the world could pull things off smoothly, plus the game is not a standard game either so not even the most experienced devs would know everything they needed to do.

The best managers in the world - would've released Star Citizen 5 years ago.

[Henako]

battles with 100-200 ships shouldnt provide too much of a problem

You're just saying things. This is based on nothing. I would actually be blown away if fights on this scale didn't run like garbage.

[Kyanion]

You're just saying things. This is based on nothing. I would actually be blown away if fights on this scale didn't run like garbage.

Yeah I love how the people that badmouth SC are full of shit and then you can take a quote like his and just see how absurd it all is. Like what kind of faith (read paid employee) do you have to have in a company with the track record of CiG to say this?

[MrAnderson]

If you want to make this a competition for village idiot because they've all done stupid things, fine...but all that means is that it's a village full of idiots with Star Citzen being the current chief.

You're whatboutism doesn't change how badly CIG is managing this project.

SC is currently the most expensive video game ever developed, sitting at nearly $350 million (as of ~May 2020, the most expensive game was GTA V at ~$265 million), and one of the longest ever to be in development at ~10 years. And it doesn't even seem to have half of it's promised features yet, with one of the most integral pieces of the whole thing, server meshing, not even close to being done. At the rate they're going this could be in development ANOTHER 10 years. If you're going to say that's OK....there's nothing more to be said I guess, except you're fucking crazy.

You can hand wave that away with "that's just game development" all you want, but with that amount of time and that amount of resources and still being where they are development wise, there's something wrong with the way they're doing it.

Nah not even close, Red Dead Redemption 2 who took longer than GTA5 to make (8 years) and involved double the staff - 2000 developers and every Rockstar studio is the most expensive game ever made. How could CIG be the most expensive game ever developed if only recently reached 600+ developers?

If you count with inflation WoW and StarWars MMO would be up there in costs of maintenance all these years alone, Destiny or Cyberpunk probably too.

Your primary mistake is that you're treating the reported budget of development+marketing for one single game from a established studio with the budget used to run the crowdfunding campaign, register a company, rent the studios, equip the office, buy the hardware/software, hire the developers, develop your engine, train the developers in your engine, launch your first playable build, maintain that build while it's being developed, pay for the servers and infrastructure to support your community growth and so on.

Your secondary mistake is forgetting that they are developing 2 games and not just one. Besides the MMO there is also a fully fleshed single-player campaign being developed at the same time. Squadron 42.

The best managers in the world - would've released Star Citizen 5 years ago.

Yeah just look at the all the Star Citizen-like games saturating the market...

Ubisoft has been spinning it's wheels for more than a decade trying to full-fill BeyondGood&Evil2 vision with seamless fully fledged planetary bodies, Bethesda exactly the same with Starfield, Bioware tried with MassEffect Andromeda and gave up mid development. CDPR abandoned many of it's most ambitious ideas like subway travelling due to technical difficulties. All features that are present now in the Star Citizen alpha.

[kenn9530]

You're just saying things. This is based on nothing. I would actually be blown away if fights on this scale didn't run like garbage.

its not based on nothing, an average claim running mission has 10 ships on it and 9 or so orbital turrets, many other missions have 3-5 ships active at a time so if a few players are doing missions upwards of 100 ships can already be active at the same time, also players like to have thier hangers filled with ships and a ground vehicle so even more vehicles included.

The best managers in the world - would've released Star Citizen 5 years ago.

Now your just talking complete nonsense, no matter how good the manager is only a certain amount of work can be completed by any person, star citizen is a game that needs at least double the staff, CiG are always hiring but there is only so many applicants.

[Henako]

its not based on nothing, an average claim running mission has 10 ships on it and 9 or so orbital turrets, many other missions have 3-5 ships active at a time so if a few players are doing missions upwards of 100 ships can already be active at the same time, also players like to have thier hangers filled with ships and a ground vehicle so even more vehicles included.



Now your just talking complete nonsense, no matter how good the manager is only a certain amount of work can be completed by any person, star citizen is a game that needs at least double the staff, CiG are always hiring but there is only so many applicants.

Based entirely on you guessing. Everything you just wrote is just guessing on how you feel it might work, hopefully, maybe someday. You're just saying shit, Kenn.

[kenn9530]

Based entirely on you guessing. Everything you just wrote is just guessing on how you feel it might work, hopefully, maybe someday. You're just saying shit, Kenn.

Its simple fact, there are loads of missions active at the same time, several missions with around 10 ships active and many others with smaller numbers, add in 40-50 players because the first thing you do is either stock up or grab a ship, and there you go a server can have 100 plus active ships on it at one time, much of the time its probably around 50-70 if only a few missions are being done at the same time but still thats still plenty of ships active on 1 single server.

So if 1 server can still load upwards of 100 ships combined with everything else at the same time, then 100-200 ships without the extra load of everything else shouldnt be too much of an issue.

What you are doing is guessing, what im doing is saying the numbers of what are actually in the missions given on the server, when a mission is active those ships are on the server regardless of anyone doing the mission or not.

[Katchii]

Nah not even close, Red Dead Redemption 2 who took longer than GTA5 to make (8 years) and involved double the staff - 2000 developers and every Rockstar studio is the most expensive game ever made. How could CIG be the most expensive game ever developed if only recently reached 600+ developers?

Source? Because I looked for it and the only thing I could find was how much money it made, not much objective evidence of how much it cost to develop.

I also noted SC was one of the longest, not the longest, there are several that have taken longer for various reasons.

As far as the most expensive if it only has 600 developers.... I have no clue dude, I'm going simply based on the amount of money they say they've received vs how much it cost the other games to develop.

Maybe they're overpaying people and spending too much on other things? I have no idea, that's not up to you or me to figure out. We can simply go off the numbers.

If you count with inflation WoW and StarWars MMO would be up there in costs of maintenance all these years alone, Destiny or Cyberpunk probably too.

We're not talking maintenance, we're talking development since SC is still in development. Don't move goal posts or add qualifiers.

Your primary mistake is that you're treating the reported budget of development+marketing for one single game from a established studio with the budget used to run the crowdfunding campaign, register a company, rent the studios, equip the office, buy the hardware/software, hire the developers, develop your engine, train the developers in your engine, launch your first playable build, maintain that build while it's being developed, pay for the servers and infrastructure to support your community growth and so on.

Fair point, but are you trying to tell me it costs tens or hundreds of millions of dollars for the overhead costs you have listed? The bolded? It doesn't...I'm not saying it's cheap, but if you're trying to argue that those things take up a significant portion of their total ~$350 million, you're stretching.

The rest are just part of development and SHOULD be included in that critique.

If they literally had to start from the ground up (which they didn't, I'm sure because by the time this went to crowdfunding they already had some work to show for it which means they had at least SOME equipment), that's all part of their development costs.

Your secondary mistake is forgetting that they are developing 2 games and not just one. Besides the MMO there is also a fully fleshed single-player campaign being developed at the same time. Squadron 42.

While you have a point, if you can provide any kind of proof that SQ42 has been in development and spending significant portions of that money, I'll concede. Because based on recent announcements, it doesn't seem like it's been worked on very much. If it's been in development this whole time, they'd have game play footage and such to show and recent announcements make it pretty clear that they don't have anything of the sort.

[MrAnderson]

Source? Because I looked for it and the only thing I could find was how much money it made, not much objective evidence of how much it cost to develop.

I also noted SC was one of the longest, not the longest, there are several that have taken longer for various reasons.

As far as the most expensive if it only has 600 developers.... I have no clue dude, I'm going simply based on the amount of money they say they've received vs how much it cost the other games to develop.

Maybe they're overpaying people and spending too much on other things? I have no idea, that's not up to you or me to figure out. We can simply go off the numbers.

> https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/26/t...-cost-to-make/
> https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/05/r...s-game-design/

Based on the cost of GTA5 and it's development time (~5 years) along with number of developers involved (~1000) plus what a game developers cost per year ($50k~ accounting for lowest pay QA to highest pay programmer).

Taking into account what game developers cost per year and that the game took 8.5 years and more than 2000 people it's easy how such values can be reached.

We're not talking maintenance, we're talking development since SC is still in development. Don't move goal posts or add qualifiers.

But maintenance has to be taken into account in the budget, Star Citizen alpha has been available to the public since 2013, that encompasses server costs, development support the live build and community support expenses that traditional games developed behind closed closed don't have until they release.

Fair point, but are you trying to tell me it costs tens or hundreds of millions of dollars for the overhead costs you have listed? The bolded? It doesn't...I'm not saying it's cheap, but if you're trying to argue that those things take up a significant portion of their total ~$350 million, you're stretching.

The rest are just part of development and SHOULD be included in that critique.

I'm saying all those things add up to development time and cost of making crowdfunded games and not traditional games by established studios.

If they literally had to start from the ground up (which they didn't, I'm sure because by the time this went to crowdfunding they already had some work to show for it which means they had at least SOME equipment), that's all part of their development costs.

They did, the company was around 6 people. The footage shown was a prototype used to create the pitch video with the help of outside people.

Prototype is not "work done", it's a rough sketch to pitch an idea usually made of smoke and mirrors, something you make to get the ball going but thrown away as soon as you can start working on the real game.

While you have a point, if you can provide any kind of proof that SQ42 has been in development and spending significant portions of that money, I'll concede. Because based on recent announcements, it doesn't seem like it's been worked on very much. If it's been in development this whole time, they'd have game play footage and such to show and recent announcements make it pretty clear that they don't have anything of the sort.

There's plenty of proof of the work and investment made in Squadron 42 along with gameplay footage:

Starting with list of actors who perform in the game:



To multiple teasers:



Or hour long gameplay videos:


Besides all the monthly reports and videos showcasing behind the scenes work shown constantly along the years.

But if you only follow the project for what gets reported in media you won't know this. Traditional game development reporting doesn't make good clickbait.

[Kyanion]

Nah not even close, Red Dead Redemption 2 who took longer than GTA5 to make (8 years) and involved double the staff - 2000 developers and every Rockstar studio is the most expensive game ever made. How could CIG be the most expensive game ever developed if only recently reached 600+ developers?

Oh lord not this 2000 dev shit again. Yeah they had 2000 devs for all 8 years.

[MrAnderson]

Oh lord not this 2000 dev shit again. Yeah they had 2000 devs for all 8 years.

“Red Dead Redemption 2 has been a massive project spanning many years and multiple teams, and we are extremely proud of the work of the entire company in bringing this game to the world,” Rockstar Games wrote in a public letter on the Red Dead Redemption 2 site.

“We would like to extend our sincere thanks to all those whose contributions both big and small, assisted in the journey along the way.”

What follows is what appears to be a complete list of credits for the game. That list runs more than 3,000 names long — which makes sense, considering the size of the new Red Dead game.


Follow your reasoning:

GTA5 = 275$million cost
1000 developers for 5 years.

RDR2: 1600 devs for 8 years

Made by the same company.

[Katchii]

> https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/26/t...-cost-to-make/
> https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/05/r...s-game-design/

Based on the cost of GTA5 and it's development time (~5 years) along with number of developers involved (~1000) plus what a game developers cost per year ($50k~ accounting for lowest pay QA to highest pay programmer).

Taking into account what game developers cost per year and that the game took 8.5 years and more than 2000 people it's easy how such values can be reached.

Speculation is fine, but you have no hard numbers to verify what you're saying is true.

Even this was 100% true, Star Citizen will surpass it relatively soon.

But maintenance has to be taken into account in the budget, Star Citizen alpha has been available to the public since 2013, that encompasses server costs, development support the live build and community support expenses that traditional games developed behind closed closed don't have until they release.

I'm saying all those things add up to development time and cost of making crowdfunded games and not traditional games by established studios.

There's a key difference though between the games you're comparing. Star Citizen isn't released yet and is still in development.

Money people give to WoW and other RELEASED MMO's is intended to go towards both maintenance and development of new content. All the money being given to CIG is intended for the development of Star Citizen and Squadron 42. Any money they're spending on maintenance is money actively taking away from development.

They did, the company was around 6 people. The footage shown was a prototype used to create the pitch video with the help of outside people.

I didn't know it was that small, but did not they started basically from sratch

Prototype is not "work done", it's a rough sketch to pitch an idea usually made of smoke and mirrors, something you make to get the ball going but thrown away as soon as you can start working on the real game.

The point is, they had some equipment and resources to do that. They didn't just pull it out of their ass from nothing.

There's plenty of proof of the work and investment made in Squadron 42 along with gameplay footage:

How old is that footage though? I mean recent stuff...

Besides all the monthly reports and videos showcasing behind the scenes work shown constantly along the years.

Take it as you will, but I'm not really inclined to believe much of the stuff CIG/RSI publishes on their website....things move around and change WAY too much for me to take it as a "reliable" source.

But if you only follow the project for what gets reported in media you won't know this. Traditional game development reporting doesn't make good clickbait.

Admittedly, the extent of my following Star Citizen and Squadron 42 is this thread, the sources linked within it and the stuff I look up while putting together my posts. I don't care enough about the game itself to want to look it up outside of these instances. My interest is not in the game, but the arguments and discussion in this thread.

It's when die hard zealot fans like you defend this game to the death and spout about it being able to do no wrong, when it clearly has issues, that just gets me irritated for some reason.

[1001]

Hai guyz! My name is Chris Roberts and I am a visionary (at spending other people's money).

Did you know that GTAV and RDR2 cost hundreds of millions to make and took 8 years or more to complete with well over 2000 devs working on them? Amazing shit how expensive and labour intensive game development is huh!

Well despite having no staff or premises or money I am going to build a game that makes GTAV and RDR2 look like tic-tac-toe. I am going to do it for just $23 million, outsource all the work and have it in done in 1/4 of the time. Isn't that so cool!

*Swoon* You're such a visionary Chris, ignore all the people who say you cannot do this!

[Xeenith]

Hai guyz! My name is Chris Roberts and I am a visionary (at spending other people's money).

Did you know that GTAV and RDR2 cost hundreds of millions to make and took 8 years or more to complete with well over 2000 devs working on them? Amazing shit how expensive and labour intensive game development is huh!

Well despite having no staff or premises or money I am going to build a game that makes GTAV and RDR2 look like tic-tac-toe. I am going to do it for just $23 million, outsource all the work and have it in done in 1/4 of the time. Isn't that so cool!

*Swoon* You're such a visionary Chris, ignore all the people who say you cannot do this!

I loled because it's right on the nose haha

[Elim Garak]

Yeah just look at the all the Star Citizen-like games saturating the market...

I wonder why? Maybe it's the same reason Derek Smart failed in this endeavor too? Like there's no market?

And if there's no market you don't go ALL IN to establish it.

But there is No Man's Sky and Elite which soon will have Odyssey, now the latter did it right - released a complete base game and then expanded and keeps expanding - based on ACTUAL PLAYER feedback and ACTUAL metrics (unlike SC that has no metrics and no valid feedback - only the echo chamber). They have already surpassed what Star Citizen has promised to offer. Besides graphics and celebrities. I wonder where the money went.

Now your just talking complete nonsense, no matter how good the manager is only a certain amount of work can be completed by any person, star citizen is a game that needs at least double the staff, CiG are always hiring but there is only so many applicants.

The more staff the more problems. Due to the lowering of the average competence of the employees, the increased demand for more incompetent managers, not to mention that there's a sweet spot for the number of people after which it is ALWAYS detrimental to add more.

You cannot give birth to a child in less than ~9 months no matter how many women you throw at it.

So it is you who is talking complete nonsense - with no sense of how businesses work.

If their problem is that they are hiring and there are not enough people to hire - they are TERRIBLE managers. You also can be pretty sure they have already lowered their hiring standards - oh sweet incompetence.

Follow your reasoning:

GTA5 = 275$million cost
1000 developers for 5 years.

RDR2: 1600 devs for 8 years

Made by the same company.

See? More people - more time.