Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[Argorwal]

Timed option- same as now

Untimed option- Maxes out at lfr gear from chest
Maxes out at normal raid from the vault

Problem solved... people don't want to get better and improve can have lower rewards and a "casual" dungeon experience without a timer.

This basically already exists?

Base mythic 0 is 3 item levels under LFR.

An untimed +2 gives you a 200 in your vault.

[Caerrona]

This basically already exists?

Base mythic 0 is 3 item levels under LFR.

An untimed +2 gives you a 200 in your vault.

Yes... you shouldn't be rewarded for ez mode.

[Raugnaut]

But then the meta would just be to run 2 healers so that nobody ever dies. It'd just be slow and boring.

Do people stack extra healers for Raids? (Outside of KT) No, they do not. The ratio is generally 5-6 other players (Tanks/DPS) per healer in raids. It won't be any different if M+ was based on deaths rather then time.

[Sialina]

Do people stack extra healers for Raids? (Outside of KT) No, they do not. The ratio is generally 5-6 other players (Tanks/DPS) per healer in raids. It won't be any different if M+ was based on deaths rather then time.

That's because bosses have enrage timers, if they didn't you'd see every mythic raid stacked with 10 healers taking ages. Do you think people wipe 200 times just for fun instead of stacking the raid with healers?

If the timer was removed from M+ it would have to be brutally harder, and harder dungeons usually don't work out in pugs either.

[Niwes]

shared death pool. I would like that. I like grouping in WoW because we communicate. And with the timer, its making hard to communicate lol.

yep, same opinion here.

timer kills communication. no communication is the death of every team playing aspect.

- existence of timer forcing ppl with „dangerous half-knowledge“ into that gogogo mood.
- normally you can compensate missing knowledge or a bad player a bit. but the timer produce hectic and bad players become even more bad and uncompensateable.
- a zero reached timer is often a reason for rage quit of toxic ppls. even when standing in front of last boss
- in hard dungeons in TBC it was part of the fun to overcome some hard parts together. this means ppl talk and solve it together.
- also if someone do not know a mechanic, ppl just explained. this produced more other players with exp. they learned.
- in contrast to above point, today if someone has no clue the grp ends, the key deflates, everyone leaves and the clueless guy learned nothing. and going same stupid into next grp.

from nearly every point of view, timer in m+ is bad or at least the root of many (meta) problems. imo there are many many many better ways than a timer. timer supports toxcity community and non communication playstyle. if this is wanted, Blizz reached that goal. if not, they should replace the timer design.

[chiddie]

While it seems counterintuitive, also remember that the design of m+ HAS to be made with the cutting edge pushers in mind. Not because the game cares for them more, but because they're in a sense a test group to see what works and what doesn't. Any issues that come up in high keys will happen for the medium level pushers in lower keys.

Now, as for the main problem, you can not have a situation where sinking time = better chance of success. You're not supposed to gain better odds by not playing the game. This is exactly what will happen in high keys with death limit. People will wait for optimal CDs, CC, and burst mobs down one by one. At really high levels you get to the point where tank is always at risk of dying without defensives even on one mob. It's not fun, it's not engaging and it for sure is not challenging.

You can implement a whole another style of dungeons, but as for infinetely scaling dungeons, I just don't see any other option than putting them on a timer.

At really high keys (above 15) you are pushing for the sake to test your “ultimate” limits, there’s no other meaning to go that far above that number since gear level won’t rise.

Maybe it’s time for Blizzard to start having a little less care about nolifers that are online all day and start to care a little more about the other 95% of players that would like to have more fun and less stress.

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I think the timer should be sustantially more forgiving on lower key levels. Pretty much anything below +15 is a learning group, and it’s frustrating to learn with a tight timer.

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Oh you sweet summer child, you must not be pugging much below +10.

30, 40 deaths are fairly normal.

I did a +10 de other side yesterday where none of the dps were over 3k and a mage was at 1.8k for the dungeon. We had over 20 deaths. Brutal. I have yet to be in one where no one dies to the oil spouts (which costs the use of prideful on the manastorms).

Maybe I’m too naive but when I see that a lot of people continue to die on a particular mechanic , I start thinking that the problem is the mechanic, not the player.

[Raugnaut]

That's because bosses have enrage timers, if they didn't you'd see every mythic raid stacked with 10 healers taking ages. Do you think people wipe 200 times just for fun instead of stacking the raid with healers?

If the timer was removed from M+ it would have to be brutally harder, and harder dungeons usually don't work out in pugs either.

10 healers, no. But a closer ratio of 4 DPS->1 healer, maybe.

The only 3 bosses which have an enrage timer that most groups have to worry about is Sludgefist, Darkvien, and Denathrius - And even Denathrius's enrage timer has been very lenient.

So outside of those 3 bosses, enrage timers are, and have been, extremely lenient, and while 10 healers is just outright overkill, an extra 2 healers would make many pug runs far smoother. But nobody does, and instead prefer to have the fewest acceptable number of healers.

5 mans would be no different, especially considering that before Blizzard greatly nerfed AoE CCs all the way back in Legion, 1 tank 4 DPS was a solid M+ composition.

So, no, people would NOT stack extra healers in M+ - In fact, without the timer and having to GGG all the time, ppl may even go back to 1 tank 4 DPS and just pull a few adds at a time killing them in 10 seconds.

[Caerrona]

10 healers, no. But a closer ratio of 4 DPS->1 healer, maybe.

The only 3 bosses which have an enrage timer that most groups have to worry about is Sludgefist, Darkvien, and Denathrius - And even Denathrius's enrage timer has been very lenient.

So outside of those 3 bosses, enrage timers are, and have been, extremely lenient, and while 10 healers is just outright overkill, an extra 2 healers would make many pug runs far smoother. But nobody does, and instead prefer to have the fewest acceptable number of healers.

5 mans would be no different, especially considering that before Blizzard greatly nerfed AoE CCs all the way back in Legion, 1 tank 4 DPS was a solid M+ composition.

So, no, people would NOT stack extra healers in M+ - In fact, without the timer and having to GGG all the time, ppl may even go back to 1 tank 4 DPS and just pull a few adds at a time killing them in 10 seconds.

I think the point being made is that if lets say denathrius had no enrage ever... no ravage. You could just stack like 2-10-8 and he will eventually die, rotate 2-3 cds every hand and you would never die, ever. Timers are important.

No timed m+ leads to shit like 2-3 tank 2-3 heals and a dps maybe cuz shit will eventually die, rotate tank cds with taunts, split up packs between tanks. Degenerate shit like that. Again timers are important.

[chiddie]

Hopefully we play a modern game with a great community.

http://namlhur.nerim.net/mob-abilities.png

(It's QE Dungeon Tips addon).

Oh, I tried to use it. It’s nice but due to the timer I have absolutely no time to read tips, thus making it near to useless.

I still have it but I totally forget about it in dungeons.

Do you know what would REALLY help people improve? A training mode. Every dungeon should have a training mode in which you can try trash mechanics and boss mechanics, for every role, at your will and at a difficulty level you choose. A sort of simulation.

For example there are still some bosses I die to:
- Gorechomp (the hooks)
- the second boss in SoA (too many balls, too fast)
- if I’m hooked at Stitchflesh is a problem because 9 on 10 I fail to position myself in time
- Stradama’s tentacles (I die to them sooner or later)
- the lazers at Sanguine Depths last boss

And I continue to often die on them you know why? Because I can’t practice. Running them at lower levels do not help because I simply outheal my issues (apart from the dammed tentacles) and when running other keys I cannot say “ehi dudes, let’s wipe at this boss 10-20 times until I finally manage to understand what to do and how to do it”.

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The issues with a death counter are several. First it will make runs longer, and M+ can already drag on sometimes. Second it means people might bail on the first couple deaths instead because +3 becomes the new meta (we saw that in early Legion, where 3 chests gave so many rewards people saw anything less as rank heresy). Third, I actually enjoy the tension that comes with the timer, I just think it's too tight sometimes, especially in dungeons like Tyrannical DoS where higher keys have a very unforgiving timer considering how ridiculously long the bosses can be.

IMO a hybrid solution might be better, making the timers a lot more lenient (as in 10 minutes more than current at least) but penalize deaths far more heavily, scaling with key level; to the tune of -10 seconds at lower levels, up to -30 or even -40 seconds at +15. This makes slower pulling viable, punishes taking too many unnecessary risks, and makes lower keys a lot more relaxed.

Yeah, also this, adding 10 minutes flat to every timer and start penalizing deaths with more seconds the more the key is high could be also a good idea.

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Meta would be bloodlusting every pack and then afking for 9min lul.

Again with this refrain.

Time is precious for everyone, noone would like to take 1 hour for a 30 mins dungeon only because “it’s safer with bl”.

Apart from 2 keys of the about 40 I did, that took 1 hour and more than 60 deaths, all the other failed ones failed for less than +5 minutes on the timer. Meaning that just simply make timers less tight would solve a LOT of issues.

[Nzx]

People exaggerate M+ timers on this forums so fucking much it's ridiculous. "hurr durr I don't have any time to even think because timer so much anxiety" you can literally pull a single pack at a time for the entire duration of a dungeon, wipe three or four times, and use none of the covenant boosts and you'll finish up comfortably in time for one chest, possibly even two. Realistically, if you can't do the dungeon one pack at a time and still get in under the timer then you're trying to push content that is too hard for you, and it is absolutely acceptable for there to be an upper limit to what some players can accomplish.

That's all saying nothing for the fact that what you're all essentially asking for is for the timer to be removed from the time trial mode. Maybe we should remove mythic-only mechanics from raid bosses too and give everyone a "training mode" for that, since it's too hard for people who can't clear normal to walk into mythic.

all the other failed ones failed for less than +5 minutes on the timer. Meaning that just simply make timers less tight would solve a LOT of issues.

This is not "solving" any "issues", this is literally the entire design of the game mode. Removing tire wear from a racing sim does not "solve issues" it just detracts from the experience. M+ by design is supposed to pit your ability to complete the a dungeon against a timer, with the addition of infinite difficulty scaling. There is supposed to be a point where you fail, and you're supposed to get better at the game or the dungeon in order to continue beyond that point. It honestly blows my fucking mind that people are failing keys and thinking the suggestion is to remove the timer instead of actually improving themselves.

[chiddie]

Reverse timer. You gain time for killing trash and bosses. That way you don't have to plan a route ahead and misspulls are not as punishing.

Another good idea. Lots of awesome ideas in this thread!

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People exaggerate M+ timers on this forums so fucking much it's ridiculous. "hurr durr I don't have any time to even think because timer so much anxiety" you can literally pull a single pack at a time for the entire duration of a dungeon, wipe three or four times, and use none of the covenant boosts and you'll finish up comfortably in time for one chest, possibly even two. Realistically, if you can't do the dungeon one pack at a time and still get in under the timer then you're trying to push content that is too hard for you, and it is absolutely acceptable for there to be an upper limit to what some players can accomplish.

That's all saying nothing for the fact that what you're all essentially asking for is for the timer to be removed from the time trial mode. Maybe we should remove mythic-only mechanics from raid bosses too and give everyone a "training mode" for that, since it's too hard for people who can't clear normal to walk into mythic.



This is not "solving" any "issues", this is literally the entire design of the game mode. Removing tire wear from a racing sim does not "solve issues" it just detracts from the experience. M+ by design is supposed to pit your ability to complete the a dungeon against a timer, with the addition of infinite difficulty scaling. There is supposed to be a point where you fail, and you're supposed to get better at the game or the dungeon in order to continue beyond that point. It honestly blows my fucking mind that people are failing keys and thinking the suggestion is to remove the timer instead of actually improving themselves.

We can’t improve because there’s no training mode of any sort. I would love not to die to some mechanics (see my post before) but I have no ways to learn and simply watching videos do not help.

Edit: also, the point of the thread was that the designed shapes around the timer is an issue, thus the idea to make it less impactful.

[Nite92]

Yes. I would go with a shared death pool myself. This would encourage a slower CC-based option on tougher pulls. Personally, I think it should be somthing like..

5 or less deaths - +3
10 or less deaths - +2
20 or less deaths - +1
Anything above that is failure. So 1 total party kill, 2 TPK, and 4 TPKs are the marks for success or failure.

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It would also allow for things like DCs, AFKs, ect without impacting the group overall.

This would be the worst system EVER put into the game. And yes I mean it literally.
People that dislike the timer don't like the stressful gogo mentality, and now imagine that a SINGLE mistake can delete your key, one bad pull, one explosive and so on. That sounds really relaxed lol /s

[Azerox]

You dont have to do the timer?

[T-34]

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...xMythicLevel=3

This is a link to the amount of unique characters that have completed +2 and +3 keys in SL so far. We are talking about several millions.
I must disappoint the majority in this thread, which by the way is a tiny majority in-game, that Blizzard will not remove the most successful addition to the game since the introduction of LFR.
Mythic + is made for and used by all players in wow, from the most casual to the most hardcore, from the least skilled to the most skilled. It is for everybody and done by everybody.

The people complaining in this thread should just realize this content doesn't suit their fun, just as some people don't find pvp fun, just as some people don't find pet battles fun etc. etc.

[Fandis]

Maybe it’s time for Blizzard to start having a little less care about nolifers that are online all day and start to care a little more about the other 95% of players that would like to have more fun and less stress.

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What you actually meant is more loot for less work, just say it like it is. Because if you really just cared about stressless fun in game, here is the list of activities you could participate in that are perfect for people with lives like yourself:
leveling alts, questing, achievements, pet battles, transmogs, mount collecting, old raids, old dungeons, timewalking, world quests, covenant campaigns, world bosses, normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, m0 dungeons, lfr, normal and (arguably) heroic raiding, world pvp, BGs, arena skirmishes. All that is casual content Blizzard has created for the fun lovers like yourself.
All that is left for the 7.5674% of us nolifers (see, I can pull numbers out of my behind too) that hate fun and like stress is mythic raiding, m+ and rated pvp. Just ignore these if you are into fun. But let me guess, the casual content doesn't drop high enough ilvl loot, so it makes it no fun, right?

Back to the topic of the thread - the whole m+ system has been created around it having a timer, removing it simply won't work for many reasons already given in this and many similar threads. Don't like timed dungeon content - don't do it, simple as that. Many of us do enjoy it the way it is.

Looking forward to the next thread: "I lose too much in pvp and it slows down my gearing. Can we make both teams win?"

[chiddie]

What you actually meant is more loot for less work, just say it like it is. Because if you really just cared about stressless fun in game, here is the list of activities you could participate in that are perfect for people with lives like yourself:
leveling alts, questing, achievements, pet battles, transmogs, mount collecting, old raids, old dungeons, timewalking, world quests, covenant campaigns, world bosses, normal dungeons, heroic dungeons, m0 dungeons, lfr, normal and (arguably) heroic raiding, world pvp, BGs, arena skirmishes. All that is casual content Blizzard has created for the fun lovers like yourself.
All that is left for the 7.5674% of us nolifers (see, I can pull numbers out of my behind too) that hate fun and like stress is mythic raiding, m+ and rated pvp. Just ignore these if you are into fun. But let me guess, the casual content doesn't drop high enough ilvl loot, so it makes it no fun, right?

Back to the topic of the thread - the whole m+ system has been created around it having a timer, removing it simply won't work for many reasons already given in this and many similar threads. Don't like timed dungeon content - don't do it, simple as that. Many of us do enjoy it the way it is.

Looking forward to the next thread: "I lose too much in pvp and it slows down my gearing. Can we make both teams win?"

No one talked about loot here. It’s so scarce that timing or not timing a dungeon won’t make much difference.

If we have to accept that there are ppl like you that enjoy timers, why can’t you accept that there are ppl like me that don’t like it?

I do M+ even with a timer because I have no other way to progress since I don’t like PvP and I have no time for raiding, but after 5-6 years I would like to see something else but a timer to measure how good you are. Timer is only the laziest way devs side, not the only one.

It’s easy to love timers when you can play with a fixed groups 4/5 hours a day, isn’t it?

[Caerrona]

No one talked about loot here. It’s so scarce that timing or not timing a dungeon won’t make much difference.

If we have to accept that there are ppl like you that enjoy timers, why can’t you accept that there are ppl like me that don’t like it?

I do M+ even with a timer because I have no other way to progress since I don’t like PvP and I have no time for raiding, but after 5-6 years I would like to see something else but a timer to measure how good you are. Timer is only the laziest way devs side, not the only one.

It’s easy to love timers when you can play with a fixed groups 4/5 hours a day, isn’t it?

You have content you do without a timer. M0s there that's your content. You don't want to get better at the game so enjoy your 0s.

Every single suggestion to either get rid of the timer or replace it with x has been complete trash. There are ONLY 2 options, timer and no timer with rediciously hard dungeons.

Im sure a casual such as yourself doesn't want to spend "the hour i have to play a day cuz 7 jobs and 12 kids" getting the first boss down in a dungeon then leaving.

You'd think people with less time to play would enjoy quicker dungeons hmmmmmm

[Very Tired]

I don't really mind the timers because they sorta make the groups pull as fast as they should normally be going. To many tanks these days stopping to contemplate life the middle of a run.

[Fandis]

If we have to accept that there are ppl like you that enjoy timers, why can’t you accept that there are ppl like me that don’t like it?

Oh I perfectly accept and know there are many people like yourself. One of my best rl friends also plays WOW (probably more hours per day than myself) but hates m+ and raiding, guess what he does? collects achievements, mounts and pets, rather than suggesting that content other people enjoy is changed to suit his needs. If you can't do raids/pvp and don't want to do M+ the way they are, well guess you've hit your progression (ilvl) ceiling, either play some activities that don't involve ilvl, level an alt or play another game. The hardcore activities are just not for you, by your choice

[Balbuto]

imo, YES! everything with a timer just makes me overly nervous and I perform worse. bosses with enrage timers are fine though. but in general I hate time trials in every game but I love pushing hard difficulties.