Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[Ashina]

M+ without a timer exists, it's called Heroic and it's the perfect difficulty for people lobbying for timerless M+. Not M0 though, that's too hard for this crowd.

[Fandis]

The side effect of timer is that everyone wants to beat it. Thus everyone will search the easiest way to beat it. The easiest way to beat it seems to have specific classes/specs combos = everyone will search for those specific combos and non meta ppl will almost always be declined no matter how good the player is.

Maybe without a timer this can change?

That will change to groups only taking classes that can CC - in that dungeon. Completed Spires with a mage in group that was awesome for polying all those black angels? well too bad the key upgraded into Theater of pain where everything is undead, sorry, the mage doesn't get to go. Oh and good luck getting into any groups as a warrior (at least that part won't be too different from live)

[Coldkil]

For someone with limited number of hours to spend on the game, this kind of design would be terrible.

For the same reason, i'd welcome this change. The M+ game is about 60% of the time waiting to form a group + traveling and then the rest is playing. I don't mind longer runs but more chances to success since you can slow down the pace and go more carefully, meaning i could run less of them but they will count more. Running faster will always be an advantage but no more this mandatory.

There's a reason why DK tanks are this much better. I'm against most time gated content, because it's usually more about getting the right comp than actually playing.

But that's just me. I'm fine with M+ as they are, they're not terrible to play, i don't care about them that much to be pissed off by the timers. I'm just against the whole "GOTTA GO FAST" mentality that doesn't reward correct execution, but it's more about preparation and memorizing the optimal route (done by an addon).

[Blackmist]

I do think I'd enjoy it more without the fucking gogogogo attitude that has plagued this game since Wrath.

Timers are nice for comparing yourself to others, but it would also be nice to be able to finish a dungeon if the pug healer fucks off, or somebody disconnects, or you want to talent change to beat a boss. Invalidate the timer, definitely, but leave them with the same level key at the end as long as the dungeon got completed.

I think the only things that should downgrade a key are not finishing at all, and being able to manually downgrade when you put it in the key thing at the start.

[KrayZ33]

But that's just me. I'm fine with M+ as they are, they're not terrible to play, i don't care about them that much to be pissed off by the timers. I'm just against the whole "GOTTA GO FAST" mentality that doesn't reward correct execution, but it's more about preparation and memorizing the optimal route (done by an addon).

actually... the "gotta go fast" mentality *does* reward correct execution way more than the other way around.

The only thing I'd change in that regard is that you can change your key to whatever dungeon and level you want. As long as you have unlocked it first.

If I have a +13 key, but I cleared HoA +15 in time (+1). I want to be able to make it a HoA +16 - on demand.

[Coldkil]

yep, same opinion here.

timer kills communication. no communication is the death of every team playing aspect.

- existence of timer forcing ppl with „dangerous half-knowledge“ into that gogogo mood.
- normally you can compensate missing knowledge or a bad player a bit. but the timer produce hectic and bad players become even more bad and uncompensateable.
- a zero reached timer is often a reason for rage quit of toxic ppls. even when standing in front of last boss
- in hard dungeons in TBC it was part of the fun to overcome some hard parts together. this means ppl talk and solve it together.
- also if someone do not know a mechanic, ppl just explained. this produced more other players with exp. they learned.
- in contrast to above point, today if someone has no clue the grp ends, the key deflates, everyone leaves and the clueless guy learned nothing. and going same stupid into next grp.

from nearly every point of view, timer in m+ is bad or at least the root of many (meta) problems. imo there are many many many better ways than a timer. timer supports toxcity community and non communication playstyle. if this is wanted, Blizz reached that goal. if not, they should replace the timer design.

This is just spot on. Playerbase wasn't this bad years ago because most people just asked and got an answer. Right now everyone pretends all other people have their exact level of knowledge or more. But again, the usual answer for this is "you can just go premade or guild runs". Guess what, if i could do those i wouldn't be here agreeing with this post.

- - - Updated - - -

actually... the "gotta go fast" mentality *does* reward correct execution way more than the other way around.

Not at all. It's not your execution if you're just copying someone else's work in choosing the optimal route. Killing stuff 10 seconds faster is not correct execution, it's just a couple more crits. I am obviously agreeing to the fact that to run dungeon faster you need to be competent, and the fastest ones are usually the ones with better execution (cause they go hand-to-hand).

But it's not rewarding. It's just D3 team taking GRs and implementing them into WoW, which i think it's just killing raiding cause it's still the best and easiest way to gear up and it's stupid "run as fast as you can" which kills basically all communication between people (which should be what keeps the game alive).

The game has changed a lot, it's pretty clear it's not for me at all. Not gonna complain, just look at it and ask myself when all this things changed without me noticing. What i don't like the most about M+ it's not really the timer or the loot but the fact i have to spend most fo the time waiting and looking at menus instead of actually playing.

[KrayZ33]

Not at all. It's not your execution if you're just copying someone else's work in choosing the optimal route. Killing stuff 10 seconds faster is not correct execution, it's just a couple more crits. I am obviously agreeing to the fact that to run dungeon faster you need to be competent, and the fastest ones are usually the ones with better execution (cause they go hand-to-hand).
.

I have no idea why you keep mentioning that addon.
It doesn't freaking matter if you copy someone else's route or not.

It does fucking matter if you pull the whole batch of mobs in front of you or if you CC 3/4 of them and do them one by one because there is no timer "rushing" you.
Since more shit is happening at once, stunning, silencing, moving, DPSing matters way more.
Same with utility skills like druid-trees, MM hunter binding shot, kiting the whole group out of sanguine and all that stuff, the enviroment becomes hectic with a timer and that's when execution actually matters - not the other way around. The usage of cooldowns is also way more important.

So please... explain to me how a "no-timer run" rewards "correct execution" when it doesn't reward it at all and you can ignore 90% of your toolkit.

[Nobleshield]

OP thinks that removal of timer would make it more enjoyable. But what exactly is not making it enjoyable for you right now? The stress of not timing it, even though you still get the rewards? May be you need to change your mindset from "not timed - failure; timed - god" to "not timed - its ok, will try harder next time"?

The problem is that because the timer exists, people see the timer as everything. People drop if they feel they can't beat the timer, even if they'd finish the dungeon. People do anything and everything (questionable skips, etc.) to shave a few seconds off. That's the issue. Remove the timer and you remove he "beating the timer is the goal, not finishing" mindset which everyone seems to have despite, as you said, the timer is supposed to be a BONUS, not a goal.

Everyone treats it as the entire goal of doing M+, that's the problem. It was clear in the initial design (and don't get me wrong I still think M+ was a terrible thing to add to the game; this isn't Diablo and doesn't need torment levels) that the timer was there as a secondary/bonus objective with completing the harder-difficulty dungeon being the primary.

- - - Updated - - -

I do think I'd enjoy it more without the fucking gogogogo attitude that has plagued this game since Wrath.

Timers are nice for comparing yourself to others, but it would also be nice to be able to finish a dungeon if the pug healer fucks off, or somebody disconnects, or you want to talent change to beat a boss. Invalidate the timer, definitely, but leave them with the same level key at the end as long as the dungeon got completed.

I think the only things that should downgrade a key are not finishing at all, and being able to manually downgrade when you put it in the key thing at the start.

This 100%. FAILURE (i.e. not completing) should downgrade a key. Missing the timer shouldn't, but should indicate that something went wrong and you've hit your limit (i.e. get better/fix the issues and try again); you should get another, random key but at the same level. After all if you die on a level in a video game you don't have to do the PREVIOUS level, you restart on the level you died on. Should be the same concept here. BEATING the timer should indicate you aren't at your limit yet, try the next difficulty up. Like, the goal should be finding your limit and then staying there until you've beaten it.

But currently not timing = failure and that's the whole problem. So you have garbage like "one true way" to run the dungeon and anyone who doesn't follow whatever crap Dratnos or whoever says is the "optimal route" is berated for "wasting time". You have trash skips that risk wiping the group if someone asspulls because it saves a few seconds to not pull them (e.g. trying to wall jump/skirt around a pack), and things like that. All the worst aspects of dungeon design simply because people see a clock ticking down and feel that they will "lose" if they don't beat it.

MMORPGs aren't speedruns, and shouldn't be made into speedruns. Having a timer just encourages people to treat i like they are doing a speedrun of super mario rather than group content in an RPG.

[Niwes]

This is just spot on. Playerbase wasn't this bad years ago because most people just asked and got an answer. Right now everyone pretends all other people have their exact level of knowledge or more. But again, the usual answer for this is "you can just go premade or guild runs". Guess what, if i could do those i wouldn't be here agreeing with this post.

- - - Updated - - -



Not at all. It's not your execution if you're just copying someone else's work in choosing the optimal route. Killing stuff 10 seconds faster is not correct execution, it's just a couple more crits. I am obviously agreeing to the fact that to run dungeon faster you need to be competent, and the fastest ones are usually the ones with better execution (cause they go hand-to-hand).

But it's not rewarding. It's just D3 team taking GRs and implementing them into WoW, which i think it's just killing raiding cause it's still the best and easiest way to gear up and it's stupid "run as fast as you can" which kills basically all communication between people (which should be what keeps the game alive).

The game has changed a lot, it's pretty clear it's not for me at all. Not gonna complain, just look at it and ask myself when all this things changed without me noticing. What i don't like the most about M+ it's not really the timer or the loot but the fact i have to spend most fo the time waiting and looking at menus instead of actually playing.

exactly. this.
all of it.

[Pregnant Orc]

It'll be all fun until a group that was able to complete the 10, just not intime, but still get most of the rewards will now be hard stuck on +14 bosses and will get nothing. Just take your average +10 group that cant beat the timer into tyranical +14 Plaguefall and see how far they get. Then see how popular this change will be on the forums.

I may have been unclear with what I meant when I posted. I don't mean that to get the current +10 rewards you'd have to clear a run with +14 damage and health but that tinkering with how the timer works might lead to changing how keys are labeled.
Today a +10 has a damage and health mod of 85%. My suggestion would make the new +14 have that 85% mod but reward the same gear as the old +10. Reason being to open up more steps in the lower keys where the time remaining on timed runs varies more than on high keys. As only in combat time would matter in my suggestion those lower keys need some way to differentiate between the current +6 that finishes with 2 minutes to spare and those that finish with 12 minutes to spare but due to various factors (maybe they can't handle the extra affix) still can't push themselves into higher keys.
Of course an overall sweep would have to be done. The vault would have to check for higher numbered keys even though the difficulty modifier would be the same and affixes would have to come into play in higher numbered keys but again at the equivalent health and damage mods.

[Flurryfang]

Would love Mythic+ without a timer!

Like, the content that i love the most in WoW are the Mega-dungeons! And those dungeons are pretty much just big mythic+ dungeons when they come out, when it comes to their difficulty.

The problem is just, as people before have pointed out, that M+ is now an E-sport. And mythic+ E-sport would always be with a timer, since that is what they compete on.

I personally would love if Blizzard just designed their dungeons much more like they designed Return-to-Karazhan. Make it big, make the boss fights unique, fun and hard, and tell a good with a brilliant climax.

Viz'aduum the Watcher and King Mechagon are two of my favorite boss fights ever in WoW, so why not repeat that idea more?

It seems like Blizzard is just holding themselves back when it comes to dungeon design, just because it has to be formed around the m+ timer/% system.

[Toybox]

Would love Mythic+ without a timer!

Like, the content that i love the most in WoW are the Mega-dungeons! And those dungeons are pretty much just big mythic+ dungeons when they come out, when it comes to their difficulty.

The problem is just, as people before have pointed out, that M+ is now an E-sport. And mythic+ E-sport would always be with a timer, since that is what they compete on.

I personally would love if Blizzard just designed their dungeons much more like they designed Return-to-Karazhan. Make it big, make the boss fights unique, fun and hard, and tell a good with a brilliant climax.

Viz'aduum the Watcher and King Mechagon are two of my favorite boss fights ever in WoW, so why not repeat that idea more?

It seems like Blizzard is just holding themselves back when it comes to dungeon design, just because it has to be formed around the m+ timer/% system.

It's worth pointing out both Return to Karazhan & Mechagon both had split M+ modes. The reason we don't get more, if I had to guess, is the time it costs to craft such an experience. Both are essentially two dungeons in one.

M+ timer is fine anyway.

[Flurryfang]

What exactly is wrong with the timer? It exists there mostly as a bonus reward/bragging rights. What happens if you don't make the timer? You still have the ability to finish the dungeon, group gets a piece of loot after you complete the dungeon, you do get credit for the weekly (so you can take your time and complete 10 +14s 1 hr after the timer and get 3 max ilvl items in the vault), you don't lose your key any more unlike in Legion, you get your rio score. You get your medal for participation that you want. There are even groups in GF that state that they don't care for timer, just want to complete.

Timer is there like a goal for you to beat. If you beat it - you get bonus rewards - 1 more item for the group and a key upgrade, higher rio score.

Why upgrade a keystone increasing the difficulty for the group that couldn't time their run? "Hey guys, you failed there and spent 1.5 hours in this +10, but here's something even harder - a +11, waste 2 more hours". Understandably, not always groups (or key holder) fail because of the overall performance, but a person dcing, ninja-pulling or anything. But that's the price you pay. And if you're good enough, you will up your next key and move on, or do someone else's key.

No system change can rid the game of toxic people. Because its not hte game problem, its the people problem, the way the modern gamers are built. And it can even be a difference in personalities. you have no idea, who's behind that character, if you're pugging, how they see or interpret things, what they used to and etc.

Having a timer stresses you in a different way. It encourages thinking through your pulls ahead (which i thouroughly enjoy as a tank), properly planning and managing your cooldowns as any role, changing your plan or pace after something went wrong. All-in-all it gives a great gameplay experience. There's also incentive for being or getting better - higher keystone, or just multichesting ones that you've timed already. Changing affixes make sure that the way you do the dungeon or your pulls or set up group has potential to change week to week.

OP thinks that removal of timer would make it more enjoyable. But what exactly is not making it enjoyable for you right now? The stress of not timing it, even though you still get the rewards? May be you need to change your mindset from "not timed - failure; timed - god" to "not timed - its ok, will try harder next time"?

Timers changes everything, because it reminds you why you are in there.

It sets your mentality into something, it reminds you when you are wasting time or waiting. It gives you a clear indicator mid-way through a dungeon if you are doing good or bad.

You can pretty much take any game, and if you then put a timer in the corner, the game feel and aesthetic changes completly. You can see it directly when people run speed runs - the focus of the game gets directed away from the game and onto the timer instead.

- - - Updated - - -

It's worth pointing out both Return to Karazhan & Mechagon both had split M+ modes. The reason we don't get more, if I had to guess, is the time it costs to craft such an experience. Both are essentially two dungeons in one.

M+ timer is fine anyway.

And both dungeons when split, feel different and gives a completely different experiences - In my opinion, one not quite so good.

I would agree that timers are fine, its not a major error in the game, but OP asked if Mythic would be improved by the timers removal (and maybe redesign) and in that i would agree aswell.

The timer is a small thing, yet it does have an impact on game-experience. Removing it, keeping it or changing it is an interesting thought experiment when it comes to game design.

[Toybox]

And both dungeons when split, feel different and gives a completely different experiences - In my opinion, one not quite so good.

I would agree that timers are fine, its not a major error in the game, but OP asked if Mythic would be improved by the timers removal (and maybe redesign) and in that i would agree aswell.

The timer is a small thing, yet it does have an impact on game-experience. Removing it, keeping it or changing it is an interesting thought experiment when it comes to game design.

I personally prefer split Mechagon because it means I didn't have to do Junkyard I do agree on it being an interesting thing to talk about, though.

People seem to be buying into the idea that if the timer was removed their characters currently getting declined for +9s would immediately get into every key they applied for - This is absolutely not the case. Exactly like now, there would be zero reason to take anyone (besides friends) who is inexperienced, undergeared, & playing a shite spec when others are signing up with higher experience & gear.

Any sort of redesign towards a "slow & steady" game would drop the skill ceiling immeasurably, or just put it at a level where weaker players couldn't even finish the key to begin with. Say a good group would struggle with the perfect CC chain combos required to best a certain pack... What are the uncoordinated/weaker players going to do? Though if you design it for the latter, you've just killed the entire system for anyone remotely competent.

M+ right now could do with more kiss/curse powers (Prideful is amazing), more balancing patches for class toolkits/damage potential, as well as a look at the value of drops (I personally like the idea of a PvP-like system that allows you to upgrade to X level depending on how high you've done that dungeon). The timer/key level works fine as-is in my opinion.

[erifwodahs]

Not at all. It's not your execution if you're just copying someone else's work in choosing the optimal route. Killing stuff 10 seconds faster is not correct execution, it's just a couple more crits. I am obviously agreeing to the fact that to run dungeon faster you need to be competent, and the fastest ones are usually the ones with better execution (cause they go hand-to-hand).

You have always to adapt to affixes and your comp. And "not your execution" part is lol. You clearly don't do anything more than normal. What is next? Mythic raids should have no guides?

[Surfacin9]

The side effect of timer is that everyone wants to beat it. Thus everyone will search the easiest way to beat it. The easiest way to beat it seems to have specific classes/specs combos = everyone will search for those specific combos and non meta ppl will almost always be declined no matter how good the player is.

Maybe without a timer this can change?

Meta will always be meta, it exists even in no-timer games or modes. It will be there as long as there is a goal. But if you remove the goal, it becomes boring. This is our nature. But there are plenty of people willing to take a non-meta. Obviously climbing rio will be harder, you will need to boast a high score or ilvl to get invited, but its possible. I play non-meta aff warlock, who despite the general opinion can perform quite well, have aoe stun and healthstones. But many warlocks that I've taken while tanking on an alt proved to be horrible, and such people paint a bad picture. So I did m+ with friends, and when they were not on, was pugging it on a tank alt. You can be a good, or even an awesome, player, but without ilvl and rio people in groups won't be able to know whether you are good or bad, so they go with meta, who perform good even when played bad. Raids don't have timers, but they have meta; pvp has no timer, but has meta, and so on. Replacing the timer won't change it. As long as there is some level of difficulty (and its required for content to be interesting).

The problem is that because the timer exists, people see the timer as everything. People drop if they feel they can't beat the timer, even if they'd finish the dungeon. People do anything and everything (questionable skips, etc.) to shave a few seconds off. That's the issue. Remove the timer and you remove he "beating the timer is the goal, not finishing" mindset which everyone seems to have despite, as you said, the timer is supposed to be a BONUS, not a goal.

Gonna repeat myself, there are plenty of groups that explicitly state that they don't care about beating the timer. You can also make a grp that states that as well. if you replace timer with another counter, like deaths, ppl will be focused on beating that. But with a death counter its even harder to come back after a fail.

Timers changes everything, because it reminds you why you are in there.

It sets your mentality into something, it reminds you when you are wasting time or waiting. It gives you a clear indicator mid-way through a dungeon if you are doing good or bad.

You can pretty much take any game, and if you then put a timer in the corner, the game feel and aesthetic changes completly. You can see it directly when people run speed runs - the focus of the game gets directed away from the game and onto the timer instead.

Everything sooner or later gets a timer to be a sign of how good you are. Even single player games have speed run challenges. Its in our blood.

[Kumorii]

Time is the enjoyable part. It tests, my knowledge of the dungeon and limits while pushing my classes abilities for optimal use.

[Coldkil]

So please... explain to me how a "no-timer run" rewards "correct execution" when it doesn't reward it at all and you can ignore 90% of your toolkit.

To me, managing CCs and avoid all the stuff is more execution than blazing in and aoe all the shit down because i have to zip through this. Guess what, in Cataclysm when they made dungeons actually difficult compared to the zipfest of WotLK everyone complained people was wiping too much and they were too difficult. So much for "ignoring 90% of a class toolkit", granted CC is one of those.

Again, i'm not saying it's just going in brainless. You need to have hands and be good to push high M+ keys. But the higher you go, given equal skill of the playerbase, stuff like meta classes, burst damage, etc become more and more prominent.

We're not talking "you need to be good to climb high up the ladder". We're talking "running as fast as possible is not the best parameter to evaluate a player skill", just because of multiple factors that have very big impact on the success of the run.

To me, it just seems people are afraid of having more competition since they like timed runs and don't want other players to reach the same keys as they do, as if it was something that gives more validation to a person. The player created "ladders" are the plague of gaming nowadays honestly. Everyone plays just to show how better they are compared to others. Nothing wrong in challenging ourselves, but you don't need to beat other people to do so and prove you're good.

This said: i'm fine with timers. They can stay. I'm just not gonna do M+ cause i find them annoying. I want to log in and play, not log in and wait until group is formed. I totally should search for people to run those consistently and reliably.

- - - Updated - - -

You have always to adapt to affixes and your comp. And "not your execution" part is lol. You clearly don't do anything more than normal. What is next? Mythic raids should have no guides?

I'm 8/10HC and i have some halfway decent r.io - i just don't have patience for pugging, so i stopped altogether 2 or 3 weeks ago. I also don't care at all about Mythic raiding because i both don't have the time and don't think i'm good enough for that.

Character is here.

- - - Updated - - -

Time is the enjoyable part. It tests, my knowledge of the dungeon and limits while pushing my classes abilities for optimal use.

Things can be hard without having a time constraint.

[Toybox]

To me, managing CCs and avoid all the stuff is more execution than blazing in and aoe all the shit down because i have to zip through this. Guess what, in Cataclysm when they made dungeons actually difficult compared to the zipfest of WotLK everyone complained people was wiping too much and they were too difficult. So much for "ignoring 90% of a class toolkit", granted CC is one of those.

Again, i'm not saying it's just going in brainless. You need to have hands and be good to push high M+ keys. But the higher you go, given equal skill of the playerbase, stuff like meta classes, burst damage, etc become more and more prominent.

We're not talking "you need to be good to climb high up the ladder". We're talking "running as fast as possible is not the best parameter to evaluate a player skill", just because of multiple factors that have very big impact on the success of the run.

To me, it just seems people are afraid of having more competition since they like timed runs and don't want other players to reach the same keys as they do, as if it was something that gives more validation to a person. The player created "ladders" are the plague of gaming nowadays honestly. Everyone plays just to show how better they are compared to others. Nothing wrong in challenging ourselves, but you don't need to beat other people to do so and prove you're good.

This said: i'm fine with timers. They can stay. I'm just not gonna do M+ cause i find them annoying. I want to log in and play, not log in and wait until group is formed. I totally should search for people to run those consistently and reliably.

People manage CCs now WHILE doing those big pulls. CC chains are perfectly coordinated, everyone knows their interrupt targets & priorities, all the trash mechanics, etc. The speed puts extra emphasis on the execution of mechanics, not less.

& again, this isn't going to allow anyone to catch up. There will still be zero reason to take an inexperienced & undergeared Prot Warrior over the 225 VDH that's done everything at 17+.

[Coldkil]

People manage CCs now WHILE doing those big pulls. CC chains are perfectly coordinated, everyone knows their interrupt targets & priorities, all the trash mechanics, etc. The speed puts extra emphasis on the execution of mechanics, not less.

& again, this isn't going to allow anyone to catch up. There will still be zero reason to take an inexperienced & undergeared Prot Warrior over the 225 VDH that's done everything at 17+.

Don't agree with the "time makes stuff more difficult" because it's just another mechanic. To me it looks more like mechanics are less punishing because since you need to run fast Blizzard has to count for errors. Things don't become suddendly uninteresting because you take out the timer. But to each his own i suppose.

Totally agree on the second part, but it has nothing to do with a timer being present or not. You're not gonna get the "bad" players in your groups when you can pick someone that has more experience, better gear and is also part of the meta.

After reading all what people writes, i can see their points. To me still it looks like the old days ion D3 of 1 support/3 dps where it was an aoefest with perma cc as much as possible so dps could zerg down megapulls. The focus on kiting to me is a big letdown, but i suppose that's not something going away, even with no timers, because once you reach certain levels of difficulty mobs hits so hard you cannot really tank them all the time.