will TBC bring us back the non toxic community and non min/max culture?

[Tangra58]

That was 2.3.0 in November of 2007.

The point was though, "Hybrid Classes were laughed at, and didn't get improvements until the end of the expansion" Which is not true. 1 Spec was lacking, Ret Paladin. Out of 27 Talent Trees in the game, 1 was lacking throughout the expansion. Others were balanced and given a fair shot 5 months into a two year expansion.

Feral dps was also crap and you needed one at most for offtanking.

[Diabloish]

Wow you're still repeating that dps isn't all that matters - I agreed with you on that 10 pages ago.

Feral dps was also crap and you needed one at most for offtanking.

At what point does this guy argue with himself and prove himself wrong?

[Tangra58]

It was damage and it was added late. Also raid wide is bad cause it makes you just need 1, if it had been group only and stronger, it could have worked.

[Diabloish]

It was damage and it was added late. Also raid wide is bad cause it makes you just need 1, if it had been group only and stronger, it could have worked.

Once again, you fully understand that there was 25 raid spots correct?

If you had one of every spec in the game you would have 27 people.

If by your definition, you need more than one of each spec to be balanced, then the game will literally never be balanced.

[Kathandira]

All this balance talk reminds me of something. When all classes and specs perform at the same level, you start to lose class identity and the game feels like it loses its sense of charm.

Maybe this is why people like me actually like these early versions of the game. Because you make choices, and you live with them for better or worse. I may choose a class that doesn't perform as well as other classes. As I mentioned, I was a Resto Druid in Vanilla, and a decent portion of TBC. Obviously in vanilla, Resto Druids only get raid slots because of Battle Rez and Innervation. Their heals are not as good as a Priests, and even Holy Palis can outperform a Resto Druid. But I made my choice, and I stuck with it. I had advantages over other classes in different aspects of the game, but in Raids, I served a very specific purpose.

It sucks when your class is joked about, and maybe not as sought out, but it is what it is. In my old guild, we had a Ret Pali who would have to spec Holy for progression runs. But would spec Ret for Farming runs. Yeah, it sucked because he had to switch Specs, and would not get to enjoy the progression in the spec he most enjoyed, but it is what it is.

I've played several MMOs over the years, and just like WoW, as time went on, the games attempt to balance on a constant basis, and all that happens is classes start to feel more and more the same. A little imbalance can actually keep the classes feeling different from each other.

/justthinkingoutloud

[Shadowsgrace]

In retail there is this min/max and "gogo" toxic thing in dungeons and basically everywhere. People only seem to care about parsing and minmaxing their characters.

I started in TBC and I do hope TBC will bring us the old age community back and we leave the min/max behind that is currently in retail WoW. Don't get me wrong I like retail raiding and doing things with my guild but I would like different version of WoW where every random isn't that toxic or minmaxer.

I remember doing 5 man HC and it took long while being noob and there was no hurry, no "gogo" yelling whatsoever and we laughed at wipes. Oh and the feeling seeing fully T4/T5 geared player in IF while you were still in blues! Epics be epics again.

No, because it existed back in TBC too, and if you think differently, you've got a surprise coming.

[Kathandira]

Feral dps was also crap and you needed one at most for offtanking.

Feral Tanking became amazing. Where on our server, the #1 progression guild ended up with a Feral MT eventually.

[last1214]

The only toxic people i run into are casual bads that just want to play the game their way and throw a fit when they find out the community around them has evolved. Bad is NOT a valid playstyle.

[Tangra58]

About what? Firstly I never specified pve, and pvp was much worse. Even in pve ret and feral sucked, other hybrids were not fine for months, and lock and hunter dps was so high that all hybrids ended up being buff bots that are only needed in a limited way. Also blizzard has openly admitted that the hybrid tax was part of their balance strategy and they later admitted that this is a bad approach. Yes, sayings like "hybrid tax and bring the player not the spec" are just figments of my imagination. None of those issues ever existed.

[Kehego]

moonkin, 3 destro warlocks and an elemental shaman

Shadow priest, Prot Paladin, resto shaman, holy/disc priest and arcane mage

spriest+ele+3 destro

destro stacks with destro cus imp shadowbolt. Spriest cus wasting gcds on lifetap is less damage, and ele for tow/lust. Moonkin can swap with ele, def not with spriest

[Kathandira]

The only toxic people i run into are casual bads that just want to play the game their way and throw a fit when they find out the community around them has evolved. Bad is NOT a valid playstyle.

And if you want to keep it that way, you have to keep up the fight.

I have watched a game devolve into a Casual Carousel. Everything ended up so mindlessly easy, that loot pinata would be a understatement. imagine a game based on the Trinity of roles, but only takes 4 DPS with no tanks, and no healers, completing all the dungeon content in the game. All of this happened because the casual crowd complained enough to where every class can do all 3 roles, all at the same time. Everyone is so overpowered that NOW they are nerfing all buffs in the game just to try to rebalance to have a challenge again. But that is also complained about, so it will likely be reverted and the carebear game that it is, will continue to be a sleep walk.

Do not play ESO if you are interested in a game with a challenge, lol.

[Kehego]

I’m sorry moonkin ele and shadow competes for the same two spots? Um what now?

Because you have 3 destro locks
2 non warlock spots. 3 classes.

[Kathandira]

About what? Firstly I never specified pve, and pvp was much worse. Even in pve ret and feral sucked, other hybrids were not fine for months, and lock and hunter dps was so high that all hybrids ended up being buff bots that are only needed in a limited way. Also blizzard has openly admitted that the hybrid tax was part of their balance strategy and they later admitted that this is a bad approach. Yes, sayings like "hybrid tax and bring the player not the spec" are just figments of my imagination. None of those issues ever existed.

Hybrid tax absolutely was a thing. But I don't feel it was as crazy as it is made out to be. I speak from the position of a druid since that is the class I played for 7 years as my main. PvP was hilarious as a Resto Druid in TBC. Literally tanking in Arenas as a Tree. /lol'ing at people as they attempted to kill me, but couldn't. And all the utility a Druid provided in terms of CC, Mana Regen, Healing, Debuffing, Additional Damage. It was nuts.

So yeah, there was a Tax as doing all of these things could eat up mana pretty badly. But with optimized gear, I literally could Tree Tank in Arenas and Dungeons and never run out of mana, because I spec'd for it. While I was taxed, I geared to make up the difference.

- - - Updated - - -

Because you have 3 destro locks
2 non warlock spots. 3 classes.

Are you talking about a 10 man raid?

[Diabloish]

About what? Firstly I never specified pve, and pvp was much worse. Even in pve ret and feral sucked, other hybrids were not fine for months, and lock and hunter dps was so high that all hybrids ended up being buff bots that are only needed in a limited way. Also blizzard has openly admitted that the hybrid tax was part of their balance strategy and they later admitted that this is a bad approach. Yes, sayings like "hybrid tax and bring the player not the spec" are just figments of my imagination. None of those issues ever existed.

You were specifying pve, as you’ve been talking about raid buffs almost this entire time.

In pvp yeah they did suck more, but they for sure had their comps. Rets for example had ret resto shaman which completed each other beautifully and could easily reach a gladiator spot. Ferals had some comps too but really not until later like sunwell patch when their gear really helped them out a lot.

Also if you really want to get into that “hybrid tax” subject we can. You understand how blizzard did away with this ‘hybrid tax’? Homogenization. Which you remember what happened to the game after they changed up this form of balancing? Oh yeah the game dropped drastically and everyone got bored with the game again, and now we are constantly complaining about homogenization to the point where blizzard is helplessly trying to put some of these systems BACK into the game with their ‘class fantasy’.

[Kehego]

Hybrid tax absolutely was a thing. But I don't feel it was as crazy as it is made out to be. I speak from the position of a druid since that is the class I played for 7 years as my main. PvP was hilarious as a Resto Druid in TBC. Literally tanking in Arenas as a Tree. /lol'ing at people as they attempted to kill me, but couldn't. And all the utility a Druid provided in terms of CC, Mana Regen, Healing, Debuffing, Additional Damage. It was nuts.

So yeah, there was a Tax as doing all of these things could eat up mana pretty badly. But with optimized gear, I literally could Tree Tank in Arenas and Dungeons and never run out of mana, because I spec'd for it. While I was taxed, I geared to make up the difference.

- - - Updated - - -



Are you talking about a 10 man raid?

buffs were group wide, not raid wide.
totem was group, moonkin aura was group, vampiric touch was group

who cares about raid meta because the only mob debuffs were imp ff and sunder (3 warlocks so curses were covered)

[Diabloish]

Because you have 3 destro locks
2 non warlock spots. 3 classes.

Are you seriously suggesting that you put a shadow priest in a warlock group? Lol dude I’m sorry but you need to watch a couple videos before we start commenting.

Shadow priests were in healer groups/mage groups if you had a lot of arcane mages.

Those two spots went to boomkin and ele which is why you bring both.

[Kathandira]

Know where the Hybrid Tax hurt me most? MoP. That is when I quit. I know things changes after that, but when I saw that I needed to utilize all of my forms just to do things that I used to do in 1 form, I was done. They forced Druids to be a true hybrid, and it ruined it for me.

- - - Updated - - -

buffs were group wide, not raid wide.
totem was group, moonkin aura was group, vampiric touch was group

who cares about raid meta because the only mob debuffs were imp ff and sunder (3 warlocks so curses were covered)

Oh yes, lol sorry, I thought you meant 5 DPS for entire raid. My misunderstanding = D

[Kehego]

Are you seriously suggesting that you put a shadow priest in a warlock group? Lol dude I’m sorry but you need to watch a couple videos before we start commenting.

Shadow priests were in healer groups/mage groups if you had a lot of arcane mages.

Those two spots went to boomkin and ele which is why you bring both.

"need to watch a few videos" kekw

Nah I played then, and i'd 100% keep a dreamstate druid for imp ff and not have mages at all, really, past the 1 token AI/water bot.
Maybe pirate server metas changed things.

Anyway to be frank, tbc theorycrafting with any date post 2008 isn't anything I'm going to pay any attention to, cus lul, not real tbc.

[Diabloish]

"need to watch a few videos" kekw

Nah I played then, and i'd 100% keep a dreamstate druid for imp ff and not have mages at all, really, past the 1 token AI/water bot.
Maybe pirate server metas changed things.

Anyway to be frank, tbc theorycrafting with any date post 2008 isn't anything I'm going to pay any attention to, cus lul, not real tbc.

Dude shadow priest being in healer/mage groups is 100% pre 2008 theory crafting this isn’t something new here. As well as keeping a boomkin and ele in the lock group.

I’m sorry man but I’m just pointing out your massive flaws in your statements here. Shadow priests basically do nothing by being in the warlock group so idk why you would even think that’s a thing.

[Space Troll]

Dude shadow priest being in healer/mage groups is 100% pre 2008 theory crafting this isn’t something new here. As well as keeping a boomkin and ele in the lock group.

I’m sorry man but I’m just pointing out your massive flaws in your statements here. Shadow priests basically do nothing by being in the warlock group so idk why you would even think that’s a thing.

Shadow Priests go in the healer group, what is that mans smoking?