Will I never have fun? Do you know a better solution for me?

[Dudenoso]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...0&dpstype=pdps

filter by boss

and your own link, of shitty aggregate data, view the adps tab, look at sam, look at dancer, do maths.

You do know the difference between aDPS and rDPS, right?

RIP jobs that buff others, I guess.

[The Oblivion]

What math are you using where there's a 23% gap?

The difference between the max and min DPS in that log is ~8%

26,631.98 vs 20,496.34

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You do know the difference between aDPS and rDPS, right?

RIP jobs that buff others, I guess.

i am well aware, but the fact is, the actual damage difference exists. the pure real damage you as a character inflict upon a boss. its not imaginary. some people are okay with utility balancing, i personally, am not. aDPS exists for a reason, it is the real physical number a job can do.

[Katchii]

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...0&dpstype=pdps

filter by boss

and your own link, of shitty aggregate data, view the adps tab, look at sam, look at dancer, do maths.

According to that parse, using rDPS, the difference is still ~11%. Not really close to the 20-40% difference you're projecting.

And according ffLogs, rDPS is what shows you how much damage you actually contributed to the raid.

[The Oblivion]

According to that parse, using rDPS, the difference is still ~11%. Not really close to the 20-40% difference you're projecting.

And according ffLogs, rDPS is what shows you how much damage you actually contributed to the raid.

you must be struggling to read. please review the quote, follow the instructions, and try again

[Katchii]

26,631.98 vs 20,496.34

That's aDPS and based on the max, not the average.

i am well aware, but the fact is, the actual damage difference exists. its not imaginary. some people are okay with utility balancing, i personally, am not.

Then you're doing it wrong.

If classes like dancer were to have their individual DPS be equivalent to other DPS without their utility, but STILL had their utility...they'd be completely OP.

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you must be struggling to read. please review the quote, follow the instructions, and try again

rDPS is great for showing how much damage you really contributed to the raid, For utility jobs like Dancer and Ninja, the metric depends on people making good use of your buffs, so some damage you contribute to the raid is out of your control

Your point? What am I struggling with specifically, in your opinion?

[Dudenoso]

i am well aware, but the fact is, the actual damage difference exists. the pure real damage you as a character inflict upon a boss. its not imaginary. some people are okay with utility balancing, i personally, am not. aDPS exists for a reason, it is the real physical number a job can do.

Well, you are the problem then not the numbers. Literally RIP buffers.

DNC could make the raid deal twice the damage while having 0 personal DPS and you'd still have the same opinion - in fact, you'd consider it trash tier and think the game was unbalanced not because they are OP, but because they deal low damage.

[The Oblivion]

That's aDPS and based on the max, not the average.



Then you're doing it wrong.

If classes like dancer were to have their individual DPS be equivalent to other DPS without their utility, but STILL had their utility...they'd be completely OP.

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Your point? What am I struggling with specifically, in your opinion?

1. i dont care about the average. the average player is shit.
2. adps is the real damage you have done to the boss, continue reading your little faq where fflogs mentions adps is used to compare jobs. i dont care what your feelings are, the fact is, you are inflicting less damage then other jobs by huge percentages.
3. you struggled to read how i calculated the damage difference, obviously, it had to be pointed out to you multiple times

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Well, you are the problem then not the numbers. Literally RIP buffers.

DNC could make the raid deal twice the damage while having 0 personal DPS and you'd still have the same opinion - in fact, you'd consider it trash tier and think the game was unbalanced not because they are OP, but because they deal low damage.

i never said it was trash tier. i said the damage balancing is shit, and has HUGE gaps that can easily be proven. do you think dancers or bards would be brought if there was no detriment to not bring a physical ranged? spoiler, their rDPS is still worse then just bringing another sam, SE simply forces you to bring a phy ranged.

[Katchii]

1. i dont care about the average. the average player is shit.

Don't disagree with you there, however do you have any idea why that specific player had that max number? Could their damage be padded by being buffed specifically to get that number?

That max number may not likely be attainable without cheesing certain things and is therefore not necessarily a reliable metric to measure against when it comes to real performance because it could be a statistical outlier. The average is a much more reliable number base comparisons on.

2. adps is the real damage you have done to the boss, continue reading your little faq where fflogs mentions adps is used to compare jobs. i dont care what your feelings are, the fact is, you are inflicting less damage then other jobs by huge percentages.

It also flat out states that it's only taking into account their own damage. Comparing a class that's balanced around their damage alone against a class like dancer that's balanced around it's individual damage + the damage they contribute to another player is not an accurate representation of what damage a Dancer is actually bringing to the raid.

3. you struggled to read how i calculated the damage difference, obviously, it had to be pointed out to you multiple times

I'm not struggling, I'm pointing out the differences in how you and I calculated it and how even ffLogs points out how you should do the analysis. It's not just one number or the other, both should be used.

i never said it was trash tier. i said the damage balancing is shit, and has HUGE gaps that can easily be proven. do you think dancers or bards would be brought if there was no detriment to not bring a physical ranged? spoiler, their rDPS is still worse then just bringing another sam, SE simply forces you to bring a phy ranged.

Having every class be within ~10% is pretty damned good, no game will ever be able to get it perfect. And even if they did people would still complain.

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

[Garybear]

I can't believe it.

First time i played the game was with Heavensward release and i quit at Level ~30 when i got my Job-Crystal (Conjurer/White Mage) and figured out that nothing really changed for me and i keep on

• returning to the waking sands
• teleport around
• talk around
• and do literally nothing.

• Whenever there is a fight in one of the MSQs it's so easy and simple..
• Whenever i want to enjoy gameplay, i have to watch slow paced cut scenes and read boring dialogues i am tired.
• Whenever i am in a dungeon, people rush the hell out of it or are slow and don't understand the simplest mechanics of the enemies.

But what did I like? The presentation, armors, classes and jobs, races,... but i can not enjoy any of these because i have to wait, read and walk around for 90% of the time. And most of the interesting stuff is locked behind these MSQs.

So a little bit later, i gave it another shot with the release of Shadowbringers.
This time as a Warrior to reach Ishgard and switch to Dark Knight.
I did not have a lot of fun because of the same reasons as mentioned above, but i read alot of times that it will get better when you leave ARR.
And at the beggining of HW, it was a bit better.
But now i am level 56 with the Dark Knight and i can't do my Job-Quest because i miss 12 Quests in the MSQ. And the last Quest I did was like this:

• Cutscenes
• 3 Enemies
• Run to the end of a dungeon-like map
• 3 Enemies
• Run to the beginning of the map
• 3 Enemies
• Collect Key
• Run to the End of the map again and release the npc

are.. you.. kidding.. me... hitting 1,2,3,.. for the 9001th time for what exactly..? Can't I just rescue this idiot in the first run? I've got a big sword. Let me slay the chains and get the fk out of this cave and rescue the world man.
best part.. guess what.. my next task is.. RETURN TO THE WAKING SANDS.

So i guess i will never have fun with the game.. right? I don't have to wait for SB-Content or SHB-Content because it will forever be like this.. or will it really change? I am so sick of using only 3 spells with maybe 2 in between of them. It's so easy and boring and slow paced i have the feeling of getting insane. It's cockblock the videogame. Is there any challenge in this game waiting for me?

What do I want from a mmo?

• I want to spend time with the game and have the feeling of getting a reward for spending time with gameplay and not bad written storys.
• I want to collect gear and improve my character for gameplay.
• I want to have a challenge in Dungeons and Raids and have the feeling of doing well when you finally kill the boss.

And all i get at FFXIV is a boring story hidden behind the task to run/teleport around and do.. nothing!?

maybe you know a game which suits me better or can explain me what i miss here.
the reason why i write on mmo-champion and not reddit: alot of people on reddit are hardcore fanboys and never played something else and can't understand that it's boring to play the msqs when you ever read or play something else in your life - it's just nothing new here.
and maybe you know a gameplay-focused mmo i could enjoy. i am open for anything but wow and gw2.
thanks in advance and when you hate my post: sorry i will leave soon <3

1. Go see a therapist/psychiatrist to see if you need medication or have depression.
2. Take a break from mmos. Go play single player games for a few years.

[The Oblivion]

Don't disagree with you there, however do you have any idea why that specific player had that max number? Could their damage be padded by being buffed specifically to get that number?

That max number may not likely be attainable without cheesing certain things and is therefore not necessarily a reliable metric to measure against when it comes to real performance because it could be a statistical outlier. The average is a much more reliable number base comparisons on.



It also flat out states that it's only taking into account their own damage. Comparing a class that's balanced around their damage alone against a class like dancer that's balanced around it's individual damage + the damage they contribute to another player is not an accurate representation of what damage a Dancer is actually bringing to the raid.



I'm not struggling, I'm pointing out the differences in how you and I calculated it and how even ffLogs points out how you should do the analysis. It's not just one number or the other, both should be used.



Having every class be within ~10% is pretty damned good, no game will ever be able to get it perfect. And even if they did people would still complain.

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

i understand how they do it. i do not agree with how they do it.

however, you can search through my post history as i posted actual numbers at the time, back in e1-4s, rdms, brds(before their song buff was added back in), and mch were all doing 20-30% less dps. mch having no dps buffs, and rdms having one the tiniest ones in existence. so even by "balancing" with utility, the marks are very commonly missed MASSIVELY for entire tiers. This tier also saw dragoons who have 2 amazing buffs, topping adps and rdps being up there with sams.

[Katchii]

i understand how they do it. i do not agree with how they do it.

Fair enough, but forgive me if I take their word and methodology over yours.

[Advent]

I recall those pushing for Dragoon nerfs at the beginning of the expansion, so he's not entirely wrong that balance was out of whack at the time.

[Ashtar Higorei]

If you don't like the story, FFXIV is not for you - Like, not at all.

This is a story driven MMO.

I hear this a lot. Is this some kind of mantra from the FF14 cultists? It's always "the game is not for you" and "this is a story-driven MMO".

You can reply to every criticism towards any game with "this is not the game for you". Hey, if this was the right game for you, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.

Remember back in Classic WoW, when people asked for more Quality of Life changes? Blizzard should've just told them "this is not the game for you". Instead what did they do? Change the game. Idiots.

And FF14 players like to point out how important story is in the game. I'm afraid to disappoint them, but WoW has just as much story as FF14. It's just that FF14 often takes 5 times as long to say what WoW says in much fewer words. WoW has characters. WoW has dialog. But it doesn't need to bombard you with it. FF14 is extremely long-winded and repetitive. And where WoW uses quest text and character dialog after you accept a quest, FF14 forces you to watch a "cutscene". A cutscene that isn't much more than a couple of people standing around and saying something that WoW tells you in character dialog that you can listen to if you want to, but can also ignore and move on from.

And to be honest, only about 10% of the story in FF14 is actually good.

[Byleth]

but WoW has just as much story as FF14.

I stopped reading right here. This is an objectively false, disingenuous statement.

Sure, wow has a story... A very malformed, disjointed, incoherent one. One that is subject to ENDLESS threads on these very forums. Heck there's 2 complaints about it in the recent posts on the front page right now.

It all comes down to presentation and personal preference really. Some people like the ability to ignore the story and just cherry pick the parts of a game to enjoy. FFXIV is not that game, it is a story driven MMO where recently even the games head developer said he doesn't want the MMO label anymore.

Anyways, based on your bigoted remarks in a previous thread, I have ZERO interest in having a conversation with you.

[Ashtar Higorei]

I stopped reading right here. This is an objectively false, disingenuous statement.

No, it's not. I played through every WoW expansion and I have played through the entirety of ARR with all the patches and am now well into Heavensward. The game is full of "cutscenes", but it does not have more story than WoW. It can be argued it has way less, because the game suffers from a clear lack of quests. The main campaign in Heavensward is 94 quests. In Northrend, a zone like Howling Fjord, if you take all of the Alliance and Horde specific quests together, has around 150 quests. That one zone alone.

If you take one zone in Shadowlands you might have as much as the entire Heavensward campaign. And there's a campaign in Shadowlands that spans 4 zones, with tons of sidequests. Even if you add the sidequests in FF14 into it (which by the way, there is never a reason to ever do any of them, as it forces you through the patch quests and you will come out way above the required level for the next expansion, I came out of ARR almost level 54) FF14 doesn't nearly have as many quests as even the worst WoW expansions. And every quest adds story. FF14 has a severe lack of content. The raids in ARR were 3 raids with 4 bosses each. A lot of the content is primals, one-boss-fights, that get recycled later on so you can do them on hard again.

WoW is full of story. You start an expansion, they throw you right into the story. You interact with characters. They have dialog. Zones have long campaigns, with quests, that in comparison to FF14 go beyond "walk over there and talk to this guy". They have tons of characters with little stories in every zone. They have a huge story arc that spans over the entirety of the expansion and gets expanded on with every patch, through campaigns, raids and dungeons.

If anything I would argue, that WoW is way richer when it comes to its game world, its characters and the amount of lore and story they pack into every expansion and patch. It's just that WoW presents its story in a way that isn't obnoxious, long-winded and annoying. And they don't charge you money to skip it. Imagine this, the story in FF14 is so great that people are willing to pay money to skip it.

[Polybius]

@wiffl

If i’m being honest, I couldn’t get through the slog, not even HW and couldn’t be arsed to play SB. I kept coming back to try it, but just couldn’t after 3 days. Came back in HW and SB.

Despite being told otherwise I bought a story skip (enough to play through Shadowbringers), level boost, and MCH boost (yeah, i’m not playing any of those starter jobs, they bore me.) I don’t regret it.

I’ve been enjoying the game just as I did WoW and some of GW2. No restrictions, some confusion cleared up by online guides, and I get to play with friends instead of waiting a year at the bored pace I was playing.

I took the plunge, but knew the risks. I understood the messages of the stories despite not knowing who some characters were. Some friends were angry but it’s my playtime, and I would’ve never played with them had I not skipped.

[Ashtar Higorei]

Sure, wow has a story... A very malformed, disjointed, incoherent one.

We weren't talking about quality. But I wouldn't even say that it's disjointed or incoherent in any way. It's terrible, because the lead writer has a fetish for Sylvanas. But it's in no way incoherent. As badly told as it is, it's very much connected and build up in a way that makes sense.

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It all comes down to presentation and personal preference really.

Exactly. And the presentation in FF14 is awful.

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Anyways, based on your bigoted remarks in a previous thread, I have ZERO interest in having a conversation with you.

It's always good to find a reason to not have to come up with arguments.

But if you're not interested in having a conversation, you did the wrong thing by responding.

[Polybius]

…

Arguably, WoW story is cool but still campy. People don’t even read quests and it’s more enjoyable reading on WoWpedia. The dialogue is also Burger King level of writing, incomplete or full of holes. WoW’s strength will always be combat and boss fights.

[Ashtar Higorei]

Arguably, WoW story is cool but still campy. People don’t even read quests and it’s more enjoyable reading on WoWpedia. The dialogue is also Burger King level of writing, incomplete or full of holes. WoW’s strength will always be combat and boss fights.

But we're comparing this to a game, FF14, where the vast majority of the story is also conveyed through text. And much more test. Much more unnecessary text. Most of those "cutscenes", and they're basically glorified machinima, are not voiced. What WoW conveys through quest text, FF14 conveys through speech bubbles. It's all the same. If someone plays WoW, doesn't read quest text, and then complains about a lack of story, that's equivalent to someone skipping cutscenes in FF14 and complaining about the lack of story in that game.

And WoW on top of that has a lot of voiced dialogue as well, and actual cutscenes, that are very well-crafted, of which I haven't seen any in FF14 so far.

And as for the "quality of dialogue writing in WoW". Pray tell hathest thou evereth taken a looketh at FF14 writing, perchance?

The writing makes you want to jump off a bridge. And it's incredibly long-winded. Every single dialog can be shortened to about a fifth of its size and still convey the exact same, but without invoking suicidal thoughts in the player.

"Brevity is the soul of wit".

Don't waste my fucking time.

[Polybius]

But we're comparing this to a game, FF14, where the vast majority of the story is also conveyed through text. And much more test. Much more unnecessary text. Most of those "cutscenes", and they're basically glorified machinima, are not voiced. What WoW conveys through quest text, FF14 conveys through speech bubbles. It's all the same. If someone plays WoW, doesn't read quest text, and then complains about a lack of story, that's equivalent to someone skipping cutscenes in FF14 and complaining about the lack of story in that game.

And WoW on top of that has a lot of voiced dialogue as well, and actual cutscenes, that are very well-crafted, of which I haven't seen any in FF14 so far.

And as for the "quality of dialogue writing in WoW". Pray tell hathest thou evereth taken a looketh at FF14 writing, perchance?

The writing makes you want to jump off a bridge. And it's incredibly long-winded. Every single dialog can be shortened to about a fifth of its size and still convey the exact same, but without invoking suicidal thoughts in the player.

"Brevity is the soul of wit".

Don't waste my fucking time.

Uh, XIV has more voicelines than WoW. This tells me you only played through start, watched a trailer, or never played the game. I don’t think you realize that line is from poetry. It’s fine that you don’t like it or don’t like advanced literature but that doesn’t qualify it as bad.