TBC class viability and PVE

[stevenho]

Im curious where you get the idea that DPS is going to be way better than it was originally. People weren't clueless in TBC like they were in Vanilla. Websites like Elitist Jerks and tools like Rawr were around and people knew about gear optimization, specs, buffs etc. Yet even top guilds (im not talking Method but "normal" top guilds) still struggled with dps, going oom, not able to keep tanks alive etc. Why so confident that this will all go away?

Its not an idea, it is experience. I raided everything in original TBC except the very last boss of the xpac, and I raided TBC for the last 3 years.
Players have improved by miles, you don't have to take my word for it, you can see it in old and new videos - a lot of them show DPS meters.

- - - Updated - - -

Is this confirmed? 2.4.3 did bring some buffs, and haste was a much bigger thing. But I remember when that patch came out and its not like guilds starting downing bosses all of a sudden that they couldn't kill before. It was a mild boost at best.

He is talking about talents, not gear.

My memory may have failed me, but I believe it was not possible to do that. If you dropped enchanting, the enchantment on the ring became inactive.

It failed you.

I admit I have not played private TBC, but in light of my experiences it is just very hard for me to fathom that the data of those servers is accurate if fresh 70s are speed running through bosses. I know players have gotten better and have more knowledge, but I also know that myself and the people I played with were looking for every edge and optimization as well.

You are in for a big surprise unless you join a "relaxed" guild of people that click abilities like they did 14 years ago.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem is that tools don't measure that well. If a mage can cast N more spells per minute because of the mana regen provided by the spriest, that damage all gets credited to the mage, none to the spriest that enabled it. IF healers can heal for longer because of the regen and have to heal less because of the passive heals provided by VE, the shadow priest kind of gets some credit for the latter but again, none for the former.

This will not matter for competent guilds, bosses will die fast.
For people struggling with stock values content it will help for sure.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Its not an idea, it is experience. I raided everything in original TBC except the very last boss of the xpac, and I raided TBC for the last 3 years.
Players have improved by miles, you don't have to take my word for it, you can see it in old and new videos - a lot of them show DPS meters.

- - - Updated - - -



He is talking about talents, not gear.



It failed you.




You are in for a big surprise unless you join a "relaxed" guild of people that click abilities like they did 14 years ago.

- - - Updated - - -



This will not matter for competent guilds, bosses will die fast.
For people struggling with stock values content it will help for sure.

Honestly curious, in what specific ways are players that much better today? When I played everyone turned with their mouse, used keybindings to strafe and use abilities. People knew about buffs and consumables and class guides and all that. What specifically is so much different now?

[Woobels]

Average skill level of a player in WoW right now is significantly higher now than it was back during actual TBC, that's very hard to argue against regardless of your opinion on this thread as a whole.

[Berndorf]

Honestly curious, in what specific ways are players that much better today? When I played everyone turned with their mouse, used keybindings to strafe and use abilities. People knew about buffs and consumables and class guides and all that. What specifically is so much different now?

Part of it I would say is the doing away of stats such as hit, expertise and def rating. A lot of people back in tbc would try to get into raiding without even knowing what the proper thresholds were for all of those stats. I mean back then the game didn't even have a built in quest system. I do recall though that threat could make things much trickier for dps. I think you had to get an add on just to deal with that and trash could one shot. So I'm not so sure that players are that much better now so much as things have been made much simpler in many regards which in turn has allowed them to turn the dial up on things such as boss mechanics.

[stevenho]

Honestly curious, in what specific ways are players that much better today? When I played everyone turned with their mouse, used keybindings to strafe and use abilities. People knew about buffs and consumables and class guides and all that. What specifically is so much different now?

In the same ways that football teams are better today than they were 14 years ago, even though the ball looks the same and there are two goals.

[ShimmerSwirl]

In the same ways that football teams are better today than they were 14 years ago, even though the ball looks the same and there are two goals.

Convincing. How is DPS able to go balls out to burn a boss down without pulling aggro and wiping the raid? Threat management was very much an issue in TBC, and many classes had to self-throttle their DPS to avoid pulling aggro. Tanks do so much damage that they never lose aggro you say? Well how does a tank gear and spec themself for max damage without getting one shot by the boss? Tanks that were not defense capped would not be allowed to raid for the simple reason that they could and would get one shot regularly.

I'm not denying that modern players are better, im just genuinely curious as to how their superior knowledge and skill actually manifests in a practical way that allows them to easily defeat content that was once hard.

These issues that I bring up are mechanical in nature, not a result of players being bad back then. How do modern dpsers overcome the threat issue? How do modern tanks avoid having to gear spec heavily for defense while still not getting one shot?

[Bigbazz]

Convincing. How is DPS able to go balls out to burn a boss down without pulling aggro and wiping the raid? Threat management was very much an issue in TBC, and many classes had to self-throttle their DPS to avoid pulling aggro. Tanks do so much damage that they never lose aggro you say? Well how does a tank gear and spec themself for max damage without getting one shot by the boss? Tanks that were not defense capped would not be allowed to raid for the simple reason that they could and would get one shot regularly.

I'm not denying that modern players are better, im just genuinely curious as to how their superior knowledge and skill actually manifests in a practical way that allows them to easily defeat content that was once hard.

These issues that I bring up are mechanical in nature, not a result of players being bad back then. How do modern dpsers overcome the threat issue? How do modern tanks avoid having to gear spec heavily for defense while still not getting one shot?

The content was never hard, that's a disconnect. It's like I showed in the other dps thread, the setup we took to for our first Vashj kill included 4 Warriors (2 tanks and 2 dps) and 3 Rogues of which none were supplied with Windfury, let alone a Feral druid for 5% crit (but we had a feral tank in the raid). We had 4 tanks and 7 healers in the raid and we were by and large Karazhan geared with a mix of T5, S1 and crafted blue bits, and we carried many lesser skilled players.

The reason tanks do more dps/threat now is because they focus on gearing around threat as a priority (as opposed to pure survival back in the day), that doesn't mean they dont have 490 defense as that's easy to reach. Healers are also way better so they can also put out more healing. Anyone who says that isn't true I mean... Back in the day we had healers who could only heal their assigned tank and fell apart otherwise, we'd run 5, 6 or even 7 healers and now healers are like "we can 4 heal it" and you sort positioning/cds out to allow that to happen.

You also provide the tank with a proper group setup, with good misdirect rotation, and the dps specs are better with managing their threat resets. But I met a tank in TBC who used to do bets with people that they couldn't pull threat from him, and he wasn't wrong because he was just better. You probably just played with a few less than fantastic tanks who also geared pure avoidance/stamina, which was the trend back then. But also don't forget the changes in late TBC to buff tanks, like when Sunder got merged into Devastate, like when the expertise talent got fixed. 2.4 has the benefit of many changes you didn't have in 2.3 or earlier.

And I knew loads of clickers in good guilds a decade ago, I raided with one of them through parts of TBC and in WOTLK he joined the guild I was in at the time and he was the 2nd highest Rogue on our server killing Lich King. You could play the game perfectly as a clicker while raiding as there just wasnt that much going on, in PvP is where clickers get caught out.

[ShimmerSwirl]

The content was never hard, that's a disconnect. It's like I showed in the other dps thread, the setup we took to for our first Vashj kill included 4 Warriors (2 tanks and 2 dps) and 3 Rogues of which none were supplied with Windfury, let alone a Feral druid for 5% crit (but we had a feral tank in the raid). We had 4 tanks and 7 healers in the raid and we were by and large Karazhan geared with a mix of T5, S1 and crafted blue bits, and we carried many lesser skilled players.

The reason tanks do more dps/threat now is because they focus on gearing around threat as a priority (as opposed to pure survival back in the day), that doesn't mean they dont have 490 defense as that's easy to reach. Healers are also way better so they can also put out more healing. Anyone who says that isn't true I mean... Back in the day we had healers who could only heal their assigned tank and fell apart otherwise, we'd run 5, 6 or even 7 healers and now healers are like "we can 4 heal it" and you sort positioning/cds out to allow that to happen.

You also provide the tank with a proper group setup, with good misdirect rotation, and the dps specs are better with managing their threat resets. But I met a tank in TBC who used to do bets with people that they couldn't pull threat from him, and he wasn't wrong because he was just better. You probably just played with a few less than fantastic tanks who also geared pure avoidance/stamina, which was the trend back then. But also don't forget the changes in late TBC to buff tanks, like when Sunder got merged into Devastate, like when the expertise talent got fixed. 2.4 has the benefit of many changes you didn't have in 2.3 or earlier.

And I knew loads of clickers in good guilds a decade ago, I raided with one of them through parts of TBC and in WOTLK he joined the guild I was in at the time and he was the 2nd highest Rogue on our server killing Lich King. You could play the game perfectly as a clicker while raiding as there just wasnt that much going on, in PvP is where clickers get caught out.

Well it will be interesting to see how it plays out and if PS got their numbers right. The crux of what your saying is that players are simply better at playing their class now then they were then, which I agree is true to a degree. But I know for myself and the guild I was in...we knew how to play our respective classes. We knew how to assemble a raid group. Tanks did gear more for survivability true, but the reason they did that is because they would die if they didn't. Healers simply couldn't keep a tank up who was getting hammered. And thats not an issue of healers not be skilled, its the simple math of damage input outpacing the non-stop spamming of heals.

I'll have to try a PS and see what is different. I would be very curious in particular to see if mana regen is the same now as then. That would have a massive impact on how many healers you bring to a raid and how defensed your tank has to be, which would of course take damage dealers out of the raid and lengthen fights.

[Bigbazz]

Well it will be interesting to see how it plays out and if PS got their numbers right. The crux of what your saying is that players are simply better at playing their class now then they were then, which I agree is true to a degree. But I know for myself and the guild I was in...we knew how to play our respective classes. We knew how to assemble a raid group. Tanks did gear more for survivability true, but the reason they did that is because they would die if they didn't. Healers simply couldn't keep a tank up who was getting hammered. And thats not an issue of healers not be skilled, its the simple math of damage input outpacing the non-stop spamming of heals.

I'll have to try a PS and see what is different. I would be very curious in particular to see if mana regen is the same now as then. That would have a massive impact on how many healers you bring to a raid and how defensed your tank has to be, which would of course take damage dealers out of the raid and lengthen fights.

I think by patch 2.4 in 2008 the shift had already began towards the kinda trends we see on private servers, it's just that period was so short. I was still progressing through tier 6 when the top guilds were going for the world firsts, then I finally got into Sunwell and we raided that for a little while and all of a sudden WOTLK is coming out soon and everyone's focus is shifting.. I didn't start raiding until the 2nd half of 2007, almost all of my screenshots that I still have are from patch 2.3 and 2.4 and it was only towards the end of TBC that all of the EJ stuff really started to become more well known and theorycrafting was hitting the mainstream.

That said I'm fairly certain there will be some differences on private servers, I know that because I used to play one and developed a gearing help sheet for Warriors were we tested everything, and in some cases there were some big things (proc rates on certain items). Hunter steady-shot clipping and how the server handled it was one of them.




This video is from 2008 and back in the day was so cool for me, seeing a Warrior with Glaives raiding Sunwell while I was still in Hyjal, it was a motivation. Look how much dps the group is pushing, tank is on the limit of losing to the Fury but he's holding threat. At this point of the expansion the tanks were all thinking about expertise and pushing the threat because the dps requirements on Brutallus and Muru were pretty brutal.



Ok and now this is a good friend of mine doing the same boss on a private server in 2018, see if you can spot the differences other than the obvious. We can speculate if inaccuracies of the server played a part, but there are levels of cheeky optimisation you don't see in the first vid, the level of output is on another planet and nobody has glaives.

[ShimmerSwirl]

I think by patch 2.4 in 2008 the shift had already began towards the kinda trends we see on private servers, it's just that period was so short. I was still progressing through tier 6 when the top guilds were going for the world firsts, then I finally got into Sunwell and we raided that for a little while and all of a sudden WOTLK is coming out soon and everyone's focus is shifting.. I didn't start raiding until the 2nd half of 2007, almost all of my screenshots that I still have are from patch 2.3 and 2.4 and it was only towards the end of TBC that all of the EJ stuff really started to become more well known and theorycrafting was hitting the mainstream.

That said I'm fairly certain there will be some differences on private servers, I know that because I used to play one and developed a gearing help sheet for Warriors were we tested everything, and in some cases there were some big things (proc rates on certain items). Hunter steady-shot clipping and how the server handled it was one of them.




This video is from 2008 and back in the day was so cool for me, seeing a Warrior with Glaives raiding Sunwell while I was still in Hyjal, it was a motivation. Look how much dps the group is pushing, tank is on the limit of losing to the Fury but he's holding threat. At this point of the expansion the tanks were all thinking about expertise and pushing the threat because the dps requirements on Brutallus and Muru were pretty brutal.



Ok and now this is a good friend of mine doing the same boss on a private server in 2018, see if you can spot the differences other than the obvious. We can speculate if inaccuracies of the server played a part, but there are levels of cheeky optimisation you don't see in the first vid, the level of output is on another planet and nobody has glaives.

Interesting comparison. Looking at those meters, the average DPS in 2008 was around 2k which is what I remember as well, while on the PS its closer 3k. So the question is what are PS players doing to give every player an extra 1k dps? Every group has a shaman, compared to the '08 group only have 3. Maybe thats the difference. The PS Brutallus also has about 2 million more health than he should, which could make it even more impressive that they killed him...or a sign that PS got a lot of other stuff wrong as well. The fact that the holy priest is casting mind flays would indicate that mana was not an issue, and that no one was taking much damage. Of course gear matters a lot, if they already had sunwell on farm and everyone had BIS that is going to be much different than a progression attempt.

Since Blizzard has already said they are nerfing Drums, im curious what other edges PS players have theorycrafted to give that extra 1k dps per player.

[Stanislav]

Interesting comparison. Looking at those meters, the average DPS in 2008 was around 2k which is what I remember as well, while on the PS its closer 3k. So the question is what are PS players doing to give every player an extra 1k dps? Every group has a shaman, compared to the '08 group only have 3. Maybe thats the difference. The PS Brutallus also has about 2 million more health than he should, which could make it even more impressive that they killed him...or a sign that PS got a lot of other stuff wrong as well. The fact that the holy priest is casting mind flays would indicate that mana was not an issue, and that no one was taking much damage. Of course gear matters a lot, if they already had sunwell on farm and everyone had BIS that is going to be much different than a progression attempt.

Since Blizzard has already said they are nerfing Drums, im curious what other edges PS players have theorycrafted to give that extra 1k dps per player.

the 2008 war is clicking his way to the top, so the overall skill is lower in that raid.

[stevenho]

How is DPS able to go balls out to burn a boss down without pulling aggro and wiping the raid? Threat management was very much an issue in TBC, and many classes had to self-throttle their DPS to avoid pulling aggro. Tanks do so much damage that they never lose aggro you say?

Tanks do a lot more threat just like DPS do a lot more damage.
I don't think there is much point to discussing this in detail. With how much the stock value bosses will hit for and how healers are much better now, tanks will be perma wearing threat gear too.

[Echocho]

Average skill level of a player in WoW right now is significantly higher now than it was back during actual TBC, that's very hard to argue against regardless of your opinion on this thread as a whole.

Actually there has been studies that show that people are getting dumber so chances are that on average players were better 14 years ago.

[Bigbazz]

Interesting comparison. Looking at those meters, the average DPS in 2008 was around 2k which is what I remember as well, while on the PS its closer 3k. So the question is what are PS players doing to give every player an extra 1k dps? Every group has a shaman, compared to the '08 group only have 3. Maybe thats the difference. The PS Brutallus also has about 2 million more health than he should, which could make it even more impressive that they killed him...or a sign that PS got a lot of other stuff wrong as well. The fact that the holy priest is casting mind flays would indicate that mana was not an issue, and that no one was taking much damage. Of course gear matters a lot, if they already had sunwell on farm and everyone had BIS that is going to be much different than a progression attempt.

Since Blizzard has already said they are nerfing Drums, im curious what other edges PS players have theorycrafted to give that extra 1k dps per player.

Yeah this server had a lot of buffed content (Brut enrage was also 5mins, not 6), I'm not entirely sure the reasons or the exact details in Sunwell because I stopped playing there after clearing Hyjal. Many or most of the bosses were buffed to be harder. There was actually some drama and it involved the strategy my guild used to get to Vashj. Effectively Hydross was so overtuned on that server he was harder than Vashj and presented a big roadblock, just huge dps requirement and jibbing tanks. So we used a really dirty 25man version of the Warlock soloing strategy from back in the day, kiting the boss around in a big circle with an affliction lock holding threat while the raid just autoattacked it to death. It was a dumb cheese strat but it worked.

We killed Hydross like that and then killed Vashj, the strategy was soon after broken as a few others picked up on the idea and we had to kill it properly. And to kill it properly we went with using a Fury Warrior to slow the adds while a Prot Paladin kept threat and kited around his consecrate while the dps only focussed the boss. This was nothing like retail strategy but kinda a natural result of the server devs making some of the content much, much harder.

I mean as for the ridiculous dps, I think it's likely that they are just better skilled. Lulleh was a top 10 raider from Rapid Eye Movement a few expansions back, if that's the level of player in the pserver guild then you expect them all to be on the limit. I didn't play in that guild but our guild also had some big name players, including one of the top PvP priests in the world playing Rogue and an ex-Nihilum member from TBC. But I am really curious to see how the private server numbers hold up to the official Blizzard ones, because on the whole the numbers look very different back in 2008 no matter what video you watch.

[Askyl]

Says the guy who prob thinks SP is a good dos spec. I'm pretty sure they topped out at about 1500 dps.

As I said, the guy with no clue. You need to create a scenario where you decide I think something you think is dumb, and bash it... Because that's all you can do. If you seriously don't understand how great retri is in TBC, I pray to all the gods you won't be some kind of officer or raid leader in your guild.

But let me steep down to your level of argumenting here... Oh my god, you seriously must think Holy Paladins are the best DPS in TBC? Are you really this dumb LOL KEKBUR pewpew and whatever twitch spams around. Kappa or something.

Soooo, when you're on the other end of it. Do you realize now how stupid it sounds? :P

[munkeyinorbit]

As I said, the guy with no clue. You need to create a scenario where you decide I think something you think is dumb, and bash it... Because that's all you can do. If you seriously don't understand how great retri is in TBC, I pray to all the gods you won't be some kind of officer or raid leader in your guild.

But let me steep down to your level of argumenting here... Oh my god, you seriously must think Holy Paladins are the best DPS in TBC? Are you really this dumb LOL KEKBUR pewpew and whatever twitch spams around. Kappa or something.

Soooo, when you're on the other end of it. Do you realize now how stupid it sounds? :P

Wow. That's word salad was pretty hard to read. It's like you said your opinion again, provided no information on why, attacked me, and then made a strawman.

I think your trying to say that ret dps is good. The burden of proof is on you. I am saying that you don't know what you are talking about and I would like to see your proof. Because at this point you are either lying because it supports your hidden agenda or you played ret and we're part of a terrible raidgroup because you were able to hang with the real dps.

Please, no more word salads.

[Askyl]

Wow. That's word salad was pretty hard to read. It's like you said your opinion again, provided no information on why, attacked me, and then made a strawman.

I think your trying to say that ret dps is good. The burden of proof is on you. I am saying that you don't know what you are talking about and I would like to see your proof. Because at this point you are either lying because it supports your hidden agenda or you played ret and we're part of a terrible raidgroup because you were able to hang with the real dps.

Please, no more word salads.

I dont need to provide anything. Because you made the wrongful claim and have logic as smart as a dumb dog.

[Woobels]

Actually there has been studies that show that people are getting dumber so chances are that on average players were better 14 years ago.

Not remotely close.

[OCoyne]

A few observations resulting from a lot of experience with retail, classic, and the unspeakable.
I hope I can help people decide what to play and how to play in the coming expansion.


PVE will be easy. In my opinion - easier than non wordbuffed Naxxramas (excluding Sunwell). There will be outliers like entering Hellfire Citadel heroics on your blue/green geared tank and getting pummeled into the ground by muscular orcs, but those will only last a few weeks max, then you will have farmed/cafted your gear and become familiar with what to pull and how.

It will be possible to clear all content with multiple suboptimal specs like shadow priests, but most guild will continue to metaslave and will try to produce "optimal" comps. This means some popular classes will struggle for raidspots (sup fury warrs).

"Pre nerf content" - one of the selling points of how TBC is going to be "harder" - don't believe it, it won't matter. First of all - only a handful of bosses were meaningfully changed and even then it was rather a different version of mechanics (like Solarian pre-nerf bouncing debuff or Mother Shaz prismatic auras) than a big difference in difficulty. Asmongold just made a video talking about big scary mind control on Vashj tank. Guess what - just bring an offtank to taunt the boss Or bring five, because the DPS check will be irrelevant.

The only thing that will really matter are 360 degree (chain) cleaves that were a thing before 2.1. They are deadly to melee and require knowledge of the mobs. Sometimes melee just don't go in on packs at all due to those. Unless they are fury in plate




Spec rating - in order of best to worst (generalized, can't really compare tank healer to a raid healer).

Tanks:
1. Paladin - there will be at least one in every raid, and if bosses hit for what they did in retail TBC, they might be able to maintank everything up to Sunwell with good healers and/or externals. As a bonus they can solo farm places like Strat/Scholo for 200-300g/hr (or more - depending on the realmeconomy). Best 5man tanks by MILES.
2. Warrior - awesome single target just like in classic, but severly limited in AOE tanking. High skillcap unlike "drop conc" paladin (a meme... or is it?)
3. Druid - quite decent with 2.1 itemization, threat machine for Sunwell bosses, most likely will be required by many guilds at that point.

DPS:
1. Warlocks - very good single target, awesome AOE, but no cooldowns. The faster bosses die, the worse locks are. They will be present in speedrun meta, and also in more casual guilds. Don't worry about there being a lot of them - it will be easy to find guild spots.
2. Hunters - awesome single target, crappy AOE, great cooldowns. They will not be in speedrun meta, but standard guilds are very likely to have a "hunter group" (at least a feral, maybe even enha too). Many spots, easy to get into guilds. Considerably higher skill ceiling than Warlock due to pet control and punishing pet mechanics. The best dps class in Sunwell.
3. Mages - mediocre as frost or fire in T4, extremely good as Arcane in T5 with proper gear. Spots limited dur to requiring innervates to perform best. Better aoe than locks and whats extremely important - a LOT less threat generated. Fade off hard in T6 and beyond.
4. Warriors/Ret Paladins/Rogues - with proper group/debuff setup fury can be very competitive with 2.1 itemization and BIS on cleave fights. Problem is there will usually be 1 spot for them in a normal guild. Arms warr will likely be brought for debuff, just like one ret pala. One rogue spot might or might not get filled to gear a guy for Sunwell progression. No reason to bring more, they will struggle before T6 gear.
5. Boomkins - 1 spot in warlock group. Highest DPS on most fights among hybrid casters if played well.
6. Ele Shammies - 1 spot in warlock group.
7. Enchancement Shammies - might bring one to buff melee group, not guaranteed. Brings lust, thats a big plus.
8. Shadow Priests - 1 spot in healer group if guild struggles on mana for some reason and to buff warlocks. Unlikely to be really needed due to fights being short and healer mana not being relevant unless it comes down to dropping to smth like 2-3 healer comps. 1 spot max, crap dps.


Healers:
1. Shaman - you bring lust and that makes you BIS. Multiple spots
2. Resto Druid - best raidhealer. One spot.
3. Priest - one spot.
4. Pala - tank healer, one spot. Might have to compete with shaman, depending on how the guild values blessing vs additional lust. High output will not be needed in the unbuffed content state.


There are big differences in pre-bis gearing of some classes, for example Warlocks are going to be very expensive while hunters are pretty cheap. Farming primals will be an absolute cancer on populated realms even with layering. Think Ungoro mafia but almost everywhere.

Feel free to ask more specific questions.

Pretty appalling list.

Crushing Blows will be in the game as it wasn't removed until 3.0 so Druid tanks will be non-existant. I believe Paladins once geared up properly could remove Crushing Blows even without Holy Shield using a Badge of Justice libram, so they're absolute top tier. The only reason you're bringing a Warrior is for Sunder Armor and nothing else.

Resto Shamans took the actual piss with Vampiric Touch and stacking Mana tide totems, spam Chain heal and never run out of mana rendering Priests and Druids useless. Paladins were great single target healers however.

Destruction Warlocks were hitting 1.5k dps in Spellfire crafted gear, a rotation of Curse of Doom and Shadow Bolt and that's it - It was even found that casting Corruption was a DPS loss factoring in the GCD. The literally only downside Warlocks had once 2 Warlock had to sacrifice their DPS to cast Curse of Elements instead of Doom for rest of the raid and another for Curse of Recklessness for the Rogue


The spec was always complimented by a Moonkin for the aura.

Combat Rogues were the other spec who could compete with the above and possibly do better but then they needed an Enhancement shaman who knew how to Totem juggle - Windfury totem has 3 second buff duration so during that duration the Shaman uses Grace of Air totem until the 3 seconds expires then use WF totem, rinse and repeat. They also needed a Survival Hunter for Expose Weakness - And the Hunter needed to be decently geared for it as EW scaled with the Hunter's gear rather than a flat amount.

Everyone else didn't serve much purpose other than your generic buffs because they weren't going to outheal a Shaman or outdps a Warlock or a Rogue.

[Reach39]

LUL what an bullshit

we have the bosses even without this bullshit what you write here relates to LUL

but hey ... theory craftting after 2007 LUL

You are already doing it looool... oh sry: for all the kidz here: KekW