The real toxic people in M+

[ellieg]

Whatever happened to letting people join a group and being happy you cleared said content? Perhaps it's not Blizzard who's killing fun but the players who are doing that.

When you're doing +15s, you won't clear the dungeon without being selective with who you invite. Not gonna invite the 200 ilvl 350 rio guy

[potis]

I'd argue that being able to even attempt to do something you're extremely ill equipped to even really seriously participate in is a massive error in game design, and if you're a player who actively knows this and still do it, that may be stupid, but I really don't think these people exist. there's a massive amount of ignorance to the audience in the game due to Blizzard literally not explaining much of the game past mere basics, like... How to move.

It has nothing to do with Blizzard, its exactly what you just said "You dont think these people exist", are you for real? The stereotype of the 99% exists for a reason.

The problem with WoW has been for years, that the segregation of the player base has vanished because of all the freebie gear in multiple content, mostly irrelevant, so new ways had to be created like raider.io and gearscore, and openraid in MoP, to clean up their mess.

Again, the numbers are random, but the problem isnt the actual casual, the problem lies with the people that are neither good enough, neither bad enough, but they dont understand just how behind they are from the actual "top players".

Its literally all these people stuck at +8-10 that think their 3.5k overall in 215 ilvl makes them godly players, because they do not know better, and even if you tell them, they turn a blind eye, "Its lack of gear, if i had 218 i would do 5k overall too", yeah okay.

[Depakote]

When you're doing +15s, you won't clear the dungeon without being selective with who you invite. Not gonna invite the 200 ilvl 350 rio guy

Pretty sure that's not accurate. Sure you won't get a higher key to run but you can still clear the dungeon.

[ellieg]

Pretty sure that's not accurate. Sure you won't get a higher key to run but you can still clear the dungeon.

Ppl want to time the key so they look for players capable of timing the key. If you just want to clear the dungeon, then make that group yourself and use your own key.

And especially on tyrannical weeks, some groups will definitely not be able to even clear the dungeon. Take some 0 rio players to 3rd boss of PF +15 and watch the struggle

[potis]

As a part of the RIO community, we get our bad stigma because of how shitty most of us are to people who are not seasoned M+ players. Many (not most) of us expect people to be creme-of-the-crop for trivial keys. I never understood the mentality of expecting someone to be M15 geared for a M5. While it is your key and you can expect anything you want, it just goes to highlight the big problem. While people who are part of the problem say "I see no problem."

I may be part of a minority in the RIO community but I'm more than willing to give pointers and guide someone trying to make it. I'm not going to full-blown hold someone's hand but what people who are (or think they are) elite need to keep in their heads is "not everyone is as awesome as you apparently are." We being to lose sight of the fact that this is a game, no matter how you slice it. We just become shitheads for no legit reason.

No one wakes up one morning and decides to be a shithead.

Quick example, i am being asked to heal on my 3rd alt, while they know i am not very good at healing, but it doesnt matter, its an alt run and all, of course i shouldnt care as much.

We do Fortified Mists+14, my holy priest is 203 , with Shadow trinkets and 190 legendary flash heal for the lulz, we reach the Labyrinth, 2 of the 3 DPS are KSM on their main, but its a healer KSM and someone that i consider bad, they just spam keys, and the other 2 are averagely 1100 in score+.

I am their GM/Raid Leader/Main Tank and even if i wasnt, despite me being a complete asshat, they most of the time recognize why i am the one leading them and i get to yell and they dont.

In case you dont know, priority in Labyrinth is Stalkers-->Interrupt Tender-->Stinger/Dispel-->The rest with maybe interrupt or purge the bramble shield, first pack, Stalker 1 shots me with a 32k bleed bite, said stalker was 95% at 15 seconds in, i had 31K with stamina.

I proceed to tell them in discord and in party chat, that i know they are shit but they cant be this shit and to please stun the fucking stalker and do Stalker-->Stinger-->Tender interrupt cause we are gonna wipe.

Next pack, proceed to see stalker, at 96% 15 seconds in, biting, luckily the tank while one of the irrelevant knockback dudes is at 30%, second bite, at 30 seconds, 1 shots 1 of the DPS.

Proceed to lose my shit, these are all 1100-1300+ Rio trashes with KSM.

What are you supposed to do then? They are this bad, while actually supposedly having done this at 15.

Reality of the situation? Freebie Tyr/Quaking week with overgeared DPS carried their asses and they dont actually know what they are doing, and someone else did it for them.

This is the problem/truth with the game, raider.io doesnt mean shit, but it clears out as much as it can, but someone that has 200 M+ in Shadowlands, as a healer, cant possibly not know the counters for the packs, but they exist, and they fuck up, and cause wipes.

These guys are still part of the 1%, yet for me, they have insane lack of knowledge/reflexes about the game compared to others.

[T-34]

Whatever happened to letting people join a group and being happy you cleared said content? Perhaps it's not Blizzard who's killing fun but the players who are doing that.

Plenty of people do that. Those groups are usually called "weekly" or "don't care if we time" etc.

[Depakote]

Ppl want to time the key so they look for players capable of timing the key. If you just want to clear the dungeon, then make that group yourself and use your own key.

And especially on tyrannical weeks, some groups will definitely not be able to even clear the dungeon. Take some 0 rio players to 3rd boss of PF +15 and watch the struggle

Na i won't even try to do mythic + anything because i know i'll never live up to anyone's unrealistic expectation of how i should play a class. Will that get me the best gear? No but I'll keep myself from having to deal with shitty players all the time. That being said this game is really close to Mythic+ dungeons or you die and that's not healthy for the game, not that any of you mythic+ tryhards care.

[T-34]

Na i won't even try to do mythic + anything because i know i'll never live up to anyone's unrealistic expectation of how i should play a class. Will that get me the best gear? No but I'll keep myself from having to deal with shitty players all the time. That being said this game is really close to Mythic+ dungeons or you die and that's not healthy for the game, not that any of you mythic+ tryhards care.

Hmmm, but plenty of people clear +10s or even +15s, so I would like to know what you consider "unrealistic expectations of how I should play a class"?

[ellieg]

Na i won't even try to do mythic + anything because i know i'll never live up to anyone's unrealistic expectation of how i should play a class. Will that get me the best gear? No but I'll keep myself from having to deal with shitty players all the time. That being said this game is really close to Mythic+ dungeons or you die and that's not healthy for the game, not that any of you mythic+ tryhards care.

You seem to be painting a pretty harsh unfair picture of who I am / who we are.

There's content for different types of ppl. M+ isn't for you and you know that which is good.

They aren't unrealistic expectations. In +2s you can see the mechanics and feel the timer. You can learn in there. Mechanics won't 1 shot u but ull get to see what abilities each mob casts. Youll get to feel how hard things hit.

By the time you get to +15, you should know all of the priorities. Based on rio score, group leaders get a metric to use to vaguely judge your knowledge of the dungeon. It is not toxic to want players in your group with similar knowledge to your own. Knowledge / experience that is needed to complete the dungeon.

You can raid and pvp and be just as well geared if not better, than those doing m+. This is the first time wow has had 3 very viable pathways to the top end gear. I dont agree its close to m+ or die.

[potis]

Na i won't even try to do mythic + anything because i know i'll never live up to anyone's unrealistic expectation of how i should play a class. Will that get me the best gear? No but I'll keep myself from having to deal with shitty players all the time. That being said this game is really close to Mythic+ dungeons or you die and that's not healthy for the game, not that any of you mythic+ tryhards care.

1-2-3-1-3-2, interrupt ability A, press D twice to dodge mechanic.

"Unrealistic expecation" of M+ requirement.

Yeah, you are a problem in the game, not the "Elitist tryhards".

[Depakote]

You seem to be painting a pretty harsh unfair picture of who I am / who we are.

There's content for different types of ppl. M+ isn't for you and you know that which is good.

They aren't unrealistic expectations. In +2s you can see the mechanics and feel the timer. You can learn in there. Mechanics won't 1 shot u but ull get to see what abilities each mob casts. Youll get to feel how hard things hit.

By the time you get to +15, you should know all of the priorities. Based on rio score, group leaders get a metric to use to vaguely judge your knowledge of the dungeon. It is not toxic to want players in your group with similar knowledge to your own. Knowledge / experience that is needed to complete the dungeon.

You can raid and pvp and be just as well geared if not better, than those doing m+. This is the first time wow has had 3 very viable pathways to the top end gear. I dont agree its close to m+ or die.

I didn't say anything about you or anyone in particular. I just know the Mythic+ scene well enough to know that i want nothing to do with it. That being said there is no current way to get the gear that mythic+ gives unless you do some kind of heroic or mythic raiding which very few people do anyway so i'm not really sure having that around is good for the game seeing as so many people don't participate. I've played this game since 2008 and this 'new' WoW is the worst for gearing up than it's ever been.

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1-2-3-1-3-2, interrupt ability A, press D twice to dodge mechanic.

"Unrealistic expecation" of M+ requirement.

Yeah, you are a problem in the game, not the "Elitist tryhards".

Bit of an oversimplification don't ya think?

[Kanadei]

I didn't say anything about you or anyone in particular. I just know the Mythic+ scene well enough to know that i want nothing to do with it. That being said there is no current way to get the gear that mythic+ gives unless you do some kind of heroic or mythic raiding which very few people do anyway so i'm not really sure having that around is good for the game seeing as so many people don't participate. I've played this game since 2008 and this 'new' WoW is the worst for gearing up than it's ever been.

If you don't like people getting quality gear from mythic+ or heroic raiding - where do you want them to be getting the gear? Also what are they using this gear for?

PVP? It already has better gear than heroic/mythic raiding if you are playing at high level.

[T-34]

I didn't say anything about you or anyone in particular. I just know the Mythic+ scene well enough to know that i want nothing to do with it. That being said there is no current way to get the gear that mythic+ gives unless you do some kind of heroic or mythic raiding which very few people do anyway so i'm not really sure having that around is good for the game seeing as so many people don't participate. I've played this game since 2008 and this 'new' WoW is the worst for gearing up than it's ever been.

Do I understand you correct that you want gear from content that you either are unwilling or unable to do?
This is not how the game works. The game works in such a way that the level of the gear you get is more or less appropriate to the difficulty of the content you do.
And the hardest/most challenging content in WoW is group content: Raids, M+ and arena/RBG.
So if you want that gear then you have to find other people to play with. If you want to play solo or use the automated grouping system then you will get gear appropriate to that difficulty.

And regarding that group content is for the minority then more than 1 million unique characters have tanked 1 or more M+ in SL so far:
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99

If we look at dps then it is more than 3 million unique characters that have timed 1 or more M+ in SL so far.

I haven't been able to find any data on how many characters/guilds that have cleared one or more bosses on heroic.

[Necromantic]

As I said M+ players that care about their performance and respect the time of their fellow gamer don't want to play with those that don't care about their performance or don't respect the time of their fellow gamer. The only ones that have "a problem" are players that expect to be carried and get rejected and then start crying about "being rejected", "gatekept", "wow has a community problem" and other stuff like that.

And you are completely right that this is a game, and M+ is competitive by nature, so the true shitheads are those that don't respect that it is a competitive game.
Nobody can or will stop or blame a player for not being competitive, but expecting that competitive players should carry the non-competitive players is delusional at best and extremely toxic at worst.

Just because somebody doesn't meet someone's personal metric standards from a 3rd party addon does not mean they automatically do not respect anything. I hate using the term "respect" as it's something mostly earned, not given freely. Too many "high-end" players feel they deserve respect but don't have to give it... forgetting it's a two-way street.

The game being competitive in some aspects is true. However, how competitive it is, is entirely subjective. There are "those guys" who just take it way too far. There is no reason to insult random people in a video game just because they do not live up to your personal standards.

Lastly, the term "carry" is used as such a blanket statement. I remember reading the article from a few years ago on how over 85% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone, they're really not. If they're asking to join a group, that isn't toxic, no matter how you spin it. If they're flat-out demanding, then yes, that is toxic but how often does the latter ever REALLY happen? And be honest about it. I've never seen anyone demand to join a key they were too low for. I just see plenty of people who are plenty geared for a key get denied because they do not grossly over-gear it.

I guess I'm happy that I'm a tank. I don't have those problems but I can sympathize for those that do. We do nothing more than reinforce our own bad reputation and try to blameshift.

No one wakes up one morning and decides to be a shithead.

*snip*

I'm sure some people wake up and do that. Some people get involved in M+ to the point where they become too big for their britches. They get a handful of gear and automatically think "I'm now elite" and act/pretend as such. This is not exclusive to this game. I play another MMO where I've seen people who are humble, low-end gear players but as soon as they acquire several top gear pieces, they act like they're the cream-of-the-crop and refer to others as "noobs."

[Simple Rick]

Just because somebody doesn't meet someone's personal metric standards from a 3rd party addon does not mean they automatically do not respect anything. I hate using the term "respect" as it's something mostly earned, not given freely. Too many "high-end" players feel they deserve respect but don't have to give it... forgetting it's a two-way street.

The game being competitive in some aspects is true. However, how competitive it is, is entirely subjective. There are "those guys" who just take it way too far. There is no reason to insult random people in a video game just because they do not live up to your personal standards.

Lastly, the term "carry" is used as such a blanket statement. I remember reading the article from a few years ago on how over 85% of the time when someone says they're carrying someone, they're really not. If they're asking to join a group, that isn't toxic, no matter how you spin it. If they're flat-out demanding, then yes, that is toxic but how often does the latter ever REALLY happen? And be honest about it. I've never seen anyone demand to join a key they were too low for. I just see plenty of people who are plenty geared for a key get denied because they do not grossly over-gear it.

I guess I'm happy that I'm a tank. I don't have those problems but I can sympathize for those that do. We do nothing more than reinforce our own bad reputation and try to blameshift.



I'm sure some people wake up and do that. Some people get involved in M+ to the point where they become too big for their britches. They get a handful of gear and automatically think "I'm now elite" and act/pretend as such. This is not exclusive to this game. I play another MMO where I've seen people who are humble, low-end gear players but as soon as they acquire several top gear pieces, they act like they're the cream-of-the-crop and refer to others as "noobs."

I mean wow has an excessive amount of players desperate to skip parts of the progression ladder who clearly are not ready for it. If you make a +7 you will have an extremely hard time trying to fill it with players who are ready for that content. If you make a +15 you will be flooded with the same people who should be in a seven trying to haggle their way into the 15...

[Speedlance]

Toxicity is just for sensitive people.

[Necromantic]

I mean wow has an excessive amount of players desperate to skip parts of the progression ladder who clearly are not ready for it. If you make a +7 you will have an extremely hard time trying to fill it with players who are ready for that content. If you make a +15 you will be flooded with the same people who should be in a seven trying to haggle their way into the 15...

I'm sure they do but it's not exclusive to WoW. I witness it in other games. Another MMO I play, we allow newer players to tag along and take drops we do not need, which are tremendous boosts to their power. In a way, they're "skipping progress" but some progress is unnecessary in-between.

There are plenty who will want to buy their runs on higher keys for sure. There is nothing wrong with that. They're just asking. Worst case scenario, they're told "no". If the key owner agrees, it was mutually beneficial. But as I told someone else, I've never seen someone flat-out demand to be put in a key they were far too low for. Example, someone decked in +7 gear demanding to be let into a 15. I think people exaggerate or make up those stories. When the spotlight is on you, the quickest defense is to get it shined on someone else.

[T-34]

SNIP
The game being competitive in some aspects is true. However, how competitive it is, is entirely subjective. There are "those guys" who just take it way too far. There is no reason to insult random people in a video game just because they do not live up to your personal standards.
SNIP

We do nothing more than reinforce our own bad reputation and try to blameshift.

SNIP

Who is talking about "insulting people"? Let me repeat one more time:
Competitive players that find it fun to do their best want to play with people with a similar mindset. They don't want to play with people that don't find it fun to be as good as they can be. They actually do their best to avoid the wilfully bad and have no reason to talk to them.

So players that take pride in doing their best naturally seek out players like themselves. A small in-game, but overrepresented here, minority expects those players to carry them and that small minority is doing its best to guilt-shame the players that care to carry them.
A fine example of such guilt-shaming is your last sentence.

[chiddie]

1-2-3-1-3-2, interrupt ability A, press D twice to dodge mechanic.

"Unrealistic expecation" of M+ requirement.

Yeah, you are a problem in the game, not the "Elitist tryhards".

It’s not exactly like this. At least not healer side. On a side note, yesterday I ran a +10 SoA with these 1200+ ppl carrying a mage with lower rio (it was higher than mine anyways). The mage died horribly a lot of times, not a single phrase in the chat, I died ONCE at Devos (was out of the circle, didn’t even notice it) and the char text was “are you a new player?”. Yes I am a new player and I survived all the previous bosses purely by chance.

We timed it but I was insta kicked after because I was “bad”. Wrong group probably but the higher you get, the worse it is.

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I mean wow has an excessive amount of players desperate to skip parts of the progression ladder who clearly are not ready for it. If you make a +7 you will have an extremely hard time trying to fill it with players who are ready for that content. If you make a +15 you will be flooded with the same people who should be in a seven trying to haggle their way into the 15...

That is partially because ilvl gear progress, at least in S1, is flawed.

As I said some time ago, with enough luck with world bosses you can basically hit ilvl 200 even before setting a single foot in M+. This means that to have some gear upgrades in the dungeon drops, you should have to run at least a +10. It’s just natural that ppl try to avoid lower brackets even with zero experience, since they won’t receive any upgrades for wasting time on sub 10 brackets.

I ran more or less 60 M+ till now and I’m still ilvl 205 with 800 rio, just started to approach the +10 this week, many of my guildies are around 200 and never saw anything past Heroic dungeons, they are asking themselves why they have to waste tons of time in doing dozens of 2-9 M+ that do not give them any useful loot.

This issue will maybe just disappear as soon as S2 pops out, but today is a issue indeed.

[Yarathir]

Seems like all of these "THE REAL TOXICITY IN M+" threads are really just deflections and desperate "N-no.. no u!"s.