Football season 2020/2021

[DingDongKing]

Pep has talked in length about the changes they did to the approach to matches in this seasons PL. In around Nov/des they changed it up and went back to the ABC of what City(Pep) football is about. They kept the ball much more in the team, didnt attack as much. They focused on being good defensely, while keeping the ball alot more in the team. Just play more boring, stable football and not go attack-attack-attack.

This also ment his players(whom at the time were injured/fatigued, could play games while "resting". The team was in a rot, so they tweaked the playstyle. Defensive they have been great this season and actually a fair bit more "Boring" longer parts of the season. This is all on purpose and made so they could make it through a bad spell and come out of it stronger and fresh in later part of the season.

Keep the ball, rest with ball in team. Be more patience. Solid in the back.

Then of course it helps having world class players at your disposal.


BUT - Klopp havent done this. He has kept his style of play, even though they have had many injuries and suffering from obvious fatigue(physical/mentally). I think its because Klopps style of play dont really have a plan B. Its high octaine football from start to finsh. Its about momentum and high press everywhere on the pitch. They fall through on this now, and dont have anything to fall back on when struggeling.

Think about the two things: -

1. Pep went back to basics. The ABC of City football, like you said. But tighter at the back

2. Klopp can’t do this because he has so many injuries, so it’s impossible to build a side that operates on intensity, ie the ABC of Liverpool’s style of play.

Pep didn’t find a Plan B. He simply tweaked what they already do and insisted on a back to basics approach. Klopp has no real bandwidth to do so, because he can’t play the mental score 5, concede 4 style from a few years ago or the controlled intensity of the last 2 years before this year. Because he’s hit hard by personnel losses in key areas, alongside other players just totally losing form. It’s on him, for the latter. But it’s one of them perfect storms. He needs to have a long hard look at his squad and figure out who will take part in the next stage. Because some have to leave because they’re no longer hungry and some have to leave because they’re just not good enough.

[Zantera]

It’s highly unlikely they’ll make Top 4, and even more unlikely that they’ll win the Cup.

As far as Plan B is concerned, it’s true of most teams. I don’t know of any team that has ‘multiple plans’. The issue for Liverpool this year has been a massive lack of consistency in their lineup due to injuries, which has caused the spine of the team to be non existent. That’s had a snowball effect on players losing form, and now here they are.

The mentality of the individuals is definitely a question mark, because adversity is part and parcel of the game. Klopp does likely tire his players out, as does Pep. The issue is the latter can just buy his way out of it, whilst Klopp can’t. So it’ll be a huge test of the entire club’s ability to endure and rebuild.

I think top4 is fading fast especially after a result today, but they're only 4p off with 10 games left to play. So while I'm with you that I don't think they will do it, the gap isn't impossible and if they can go on a run then who knows what will happen? Two of the teams above them are Everton and West Ham who have been overperforming/doing better than people's expectations so I wouldn't be THAT surprised if they dropped a few points either.

They're still in Champions League too which is still a weird tournament that can see big upsets happen. I'm not saying the Liverpool of today that lost 1-0 to Fulham at home will go on to win Champions League but they have a 2-0 win from away against Leipzig which could help see them through. Say a few players return and they gain some form, who knows? It's a low chance but there's still a chance.

I'm not really trying to advocate for Liverpool actually achieving this but if you are in their shoes you gotta at least put yourself in the mindset to try and get there. They haven't been themselves for a month or two now but unbelievably they are still in the challenge for 4th and CL (as long as they are still in it) and if they re-discover their form they could do something.. maybe.

[DingDongKing]

I think top4 is fading fast especially after a result today, but they're only 4p off with 10 games left to play. So while I'm with you that I don't think they will do it, the gap isn't impossible and if they can go on a run then who knows what will happen? Two of the teams above them are Everton and West Ham who have been overperforming/doing better than people's expectations so I wouldn't be THAT surprised if they dropped a few points either.

They're still in Champions League too which is still a weird tournament that can see big upsets happen. I'm not saying the Liverpool of today that lost 1-0 to Fulham at home will go on to win Champions League but they have a 2-0 win from away against Leipzig which could help see them through. Say a few players return and they gain some form, who knows? It's a low chance but there's still a chance.

I'm not really trying to advocate for Liverpool actually achieving this but if you are in their shoes you gotta at least put yourself in the mindset to try and get there. They haven't been themselves for a month or two now but unbelievably they are still in the challenge for 4th and CL (as long as they are still in it) and if they re-discover their form they could do something.. maybe.

Sure, they have to give it their all. But therein lies the problem, they’re not able to, for a variety of reasons. Every opportunity they’ve had to turn the season around, they’ve spurned it. The team is as responsible as the manager, but I’m leaning towards the former more, because they’re clearly not translating the game plan into actual action. Why is that? Lots of reasons known and unknown. There’s definitely a drop in mentality and attitude, which has been a key driver. So time will tell. I would currently expect them to end up 9th or 10th in the League and crash out of the UCL on Wednesday itself or the next round. These lot won’t be able to compete with the very best. It’s just not in them right now. So the long term rebuild takes priority.

[crusadernero]

Think about the two things: -

1. Pep went back to basics. The ABC of City football, like you said. But tighter at the back

2. Klopp can’t do this because he has so many injuries, so it’s impossible to build a side that operates on intensity, ie the ABC of Liverpool’s style of play.

Pep didn’t find a Plan B. He simply tweaked what they already do and insisted on a back to basics approach. Klopp has no real bandwidth to do so, because he can’t play the mental score 5, concede 4 style from a few years ago or the controlled intensity of the last 2 years before this year. Because he’s hit hard by personnel losses in key areas, alongside other players just totally losing form. It’s on him, for the latter. But it’s one of them perfect storms. He needs to have a long hard look at his squad and figure out who will take part in the next stage. Because some have to leave because they’re no longer hungry and some have to leave because they’re just not good enough.

I agree for the most part. I just think Klopps style of play dont have anything to fall back on. He havent show any desire to change it up either. Its a obvious issue, cause no team perform top notch all the time. Its strength to be adaptable at times.

But atm it looks like everything that can go wrong, goes wrong for LFC.

[DingDongKing]

I agree for the most part. I just think Klopps style of play dont have anything to fall back on. He havent show any desire to change it up either. Its a obvious issue, cause no team perform top notch all the time. Its strength to be adaptable at times.

But atm it looks like everything that can go wrong, goes wrong for LFC.

That’s not necessarily true though. The first 2 and a half years of Klopp at Liverpool was total madness. Lots of attacking play with a pretty wonky defence. 18/19 and 19/20 is when they became that ‘winning machine’. In 20/21, they’ve not managed any identity bar the first couple months of the season. Once the injuries really racked up, then it was curtains. December onwards basically, even though they had the odd win against Palace and Spurs to cover up the major issues of injuries and form. But yeah, perfect storm of fuck ups. Top to bottom.

[crusadernero]

That’s not necessarily true though. The first 2 and a half years of Klopp at Liverpool was total madness. Lots of attacking play with a pretty wonky defence. 18/19 and 19/20 is when they became that ‘winning machine’. In 20/21, they’ve not managed any identity bar the first couple months of the season. Once the injuries really racked up, then it was curtains. December onwards basically, even though they had the odd win against Palace and Spurs to cover up the major issues of injuries and form. But yeah, perfect storm of fuck ups. Top to bottom.

The previous seasons did provide the fans a proof of development, that something was coming. They had a great attack, but a bad defense. Brought in Van Dijk and they took that last step towards being champions.

But one thing is to be in attacking position, in a club that hadnt wont the league in 30 years. Its something else having won it, then try to recreate that performance. Before the league title last year and the CL title 2 year ago, LFC & Klopp couldnt do anything "wrong" aslong as they were pushing onwards with high energy football.

Somtimes it can be a curse to win the league, cause everything changes after that. Now its expected from LFC to win every game, to dominate and smash out every opponent. Its constant pressure for a team that have won the league - they have done it once, why cant they just do it again? Suddenly everything Klopp and his team says or do, is under scrutiny.

I wouldnt be to surprised if several players in LFC are gone by the summer. The question is - who will they manage to get in? Especially if they miss out on CL.

[DingDongKing]

The previous seasons did provide the fans a proof of development, that something was coming. They had a great attack, but a bad defense. Brought in Van Dijk and they took that last step towards being champions.

But one thing is to be in attacking position, in a club that hadnt wont the league in 30 years. Its something else having won it, then try to recreate that performance. Before the league title last year and the CL title 2 year ago, LFC & Klopp couldnt do anything "wrong" aslong as they were pushing onwards with high energy football.

Somtimes it can be a curse to win the league, cause everything changes after that. Now its expected from LFC to win every game, to dominate and smash out every opponent. Its constant pressure for a team that have won the league - they have done it once, why cant they just do it again? Suddenly everything Klopp and his team says or do, is under scrutiny.

I wouldnt be to surprised if several players in LFC are gone by the summer. The question is - who will they manage to get in? Especially if they miss out on CL.

Sounds about right. But the original point still stands that there are different 'ways' of playing, but they're not necessarily Plans A or B.

At this point, it's probably necessary to have a semi clear-out. But like you said, who can they get in? The ownership seems to be structured very similarly to the Red Sox, who have not been managed particularly well over the last 15 years.

They've won World Series, sure. But they've also had wretched seasons.

And the ownership's mentality is 'ride it out' and 'live within means'. So it'll be a constant case of build, achieve, dip, rebuild, achieve, dip.

So to answer the question of who can they get in? Some data-driven signings that are within budget. Any Liverpool fan dreaming of Mbappe or Haaland is living in cloud cucokoo land. It isn't going to happen. It'll be more 'appropriate' players with hunger and good underlying numbers.

Key is the keep Klopp. Players can come and go, but the management and philosophy have worked and will work again.

That said, some of the things he does are really fucking weird.

Like yesterday (which was a rare occasion that I actually watched Liverpool live) he brings Fabinho, Alexander Arnold and Mane on.

Goes to a 4-4-2, but then decides to play Mane on the left and Shaqiri on the right.

Both then just drift inwards, crowd the middle of the park out and remove any possibility of stretching the Fulham defence. Alexander Arnold and Robertson then just keep trying to barrage the Fulham defence with crosses, when they've got 8 men defending. Mind boggling.

[crusadernero]

Sounds about right. But the original point still stands that there are different 'ways' of playing, but they're not necessarily Plans A or B.

At this point, it's probably necessary to have a semi clear-out. But like you said, who can they get in? The ownership seems to be structured very similarly to the Red Sox, who have not been managed particularly well over the last 15 years.

They've won World Series, sure. But they've also had wretched seasons.

And the ownership's mentality is 'ride it out' and 'live within means'. So it'll be a constant case of build, achieve, dip, rebuild, achieve, dip.

So to answer the question of who can they get in? Some data-driven signings that are within budget. Any Liverpool fan dreaming of Mbappe or Haaland is living in cloud cucokoo land. It isn't going to happen. It'll be more 'appropriate' players with hunger and good underlying numbers.

Key is the keep Klopp. Players can come and go, but the management and philosophy have worked and will work again.

That said, some of the things he does are really fucking weird.

Like yesterday (which was a rare occasion that I actually watched Liverpool live) he brings Fabinho, Alexander Arnold and Mane on.

Goes to a 4-4-2, but then decides to play Mane on the left and Shaqiri on the right.

Both then just drift inwards, crowd the middle of the park out and remove any possibility of stretching the Fulham defence. Alexander Arnold and Robertson then just keep trying to barrage the Fulham defence with crosses, when they've got 8 men defending. Mind boggling.

It will probably be a huge mistake to let go of Klopp, no matter how bad the season ends. Its obvious they gotta reinvest in the squad, while selling off several players. It would be better to have Klopp there than a new manager. He has proven what he can achive as a manager and players still believe in him. The tricky part will be to find these players at a reasonable price that also will have a big impact on the pitch.
They cant afford buying player(s) who take long time to perform. They need fresh blood in, someone who can change things up and got that hunger for glory. Question is - will the be able to? Who can they get in that has the qualities they need and can go straight into the squad and challenge for a spot in the team?

Mbappe and Haaland is out of reach for most clubs. I cant see LFC signing any of them. Mbappe might be a fan of LFC, but he wont get the salaray he wants there. It would be cool if Mbappe proved me wrong, but players chase the best contracts these days first and foremost. Cant blame them really.

I think Haaland will go to Manchester City. Either this summer or next one. Aguero is fading and Jesus is not the big goalscorer they need. They can probably make it for another season with Jesus, but in 2022 a new striker is needed. City also got the money for it.

Mbappe will probably sign a new contract with PSG. Real is broke, so is Barca.


BTW - Klopp(and many other managers) has been moaning about the fixtures and the amount of games that is taking its toll on the players. I understand him, but for so many games he used his same players over and over. Even against lesser opponents and when LFC was through CL group stage, he used his best players. One would think that at the very least, he and the club would take whatever measures to rest the players whenever they can. Especially when you count in how LFC plays football.

I cant either understand why Klopp insists on keeping a high defensive line in every game, no matter the opponent. The backline is being replaced with new players all the time and most of them cant handle having that backspace behind them. Just a little deeper with the team and many goals would probably been avoided.

[DingDongKing]

It will probably be a huge mistake to let go of Klopp, no matter how bad the season ends. Its obvious they gotta reinvest in the squad, while selling off several players. It would be better to have Klopp there than a new manager. He has proven what he can achive as a manager and players still believe in him. The tricky part will be to find these players at a reasonable price that also will have a big impact on the pitch.
They cant afford buying player(s) who take long time to perform. They need fresh blood in, someone who can change things up and got that hunger for glory. Question is - will the be able to? Who can they get in that has the qualities they need and can go straight into the squad and challenge for a spot in the team?

Mbappe and Haaland is out of reach for most clubs. I cant see LFC signing any of them. Mbappe might be a fan of LFC, but he wont get the salaray he wants there. It would be cool if Mbappe proved me wrong, but players chase the best contracts these days first and foremost. Cant blame them really.

I think Haaland will go to Manchester City. Either this summer or next one. Aguero is fading and Jesus is not the big goalscorer they need. They can probably make it for another season with Jesus, but in 2022 a new striker is needed. City also got the money for it.

Mbappe will probably sign a new contract with PSG. Real is broke, so is Barca.


BTW - Klopp(and many other managers) has been moaning about the fixtures and the amount of games that is taking its toll on the players. I understand him, but for so many games he used his same players over and over. Even against lesser opponents and when LFC was through CL group stage, he used his best players. One would think that at the very least, he and the club would take whatever measures to rest the players whenever they can. Especially when you count in how LFC plays football.

I cant either understand why Klopp insists on keeping a high defensive line in every game, no matter the opponent. The backline is being replaced with new players all the time and most of them cant handle having that backspace behind them. Just a little deeper with the team and many goals would probably been avoided.

Agreed on pretty much everything.

[Jessicka]

Liverpool have a small squad, they didn’t have the luxury of resting players even if everyone was fit to do so. And they haven’t been.

Part of the issue does rest with the players though, Klopp has more than proven what he’s capable of, but I just get the sense that players - and indeed some fans - were just relieved at getting a championship after so long, that ideas of going on to do it again and again just didn’t stick with them.

There are a lot of players like that, always have been, got themselves a medal and they’re done. Truly great players want to win everything every year, I don’t see that with any of the Liverpool squad other than Salah. That doesn’t seem to be something a manager can instil, even Fergie had issues with those kinds of players.

[DingDongKing]

Liverpool have a small squad, they didn’t have the luxury of resting players even if everyone was fit to do so. And they haven’t been.

Part of the issue does rest with the players though, Klopp has more than proven what he’s capable of, but I just get the sense that players - and indeed some fans - were just relieved at getting a championship after so long, that ideas of going on to do it again and again just didn’t stick with them.

There are a lot of players like that, always have been, got themselves a medal and they’re done. Truly great players want to win everything every year, I don’t see that with any of the Liverpool squad other than Salah. That doesn’t seem to be something a manager can instil, even Fergie had issues with those kinds of players.

I don't entirely agree with this, but there's parts I can see. From a pure outsider's perspective, it's less a case of not wanting it the second time but more a combination of the players (and manager) feeling sorry for themselves and also just being extremely burnt out.

Here's the players I would put in the world class category at Liverpool.

Alisson, Alexander Arnold, Van Dijk, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Salah, Mane. Out of them, Only Wijnaldum and Robertson have been completely fit throughout the season. They've all missed time either due to COVID or plain old injuries.

So it takes a toll on players when your spine is out for the count.

A rebuild is definitely necessary though. In an ideal world, they need another centre back, a centre midfielder, a creative midfielder and a striker.

They're definitely capable of getting 4 players in during the summer, but the quality will be down to how much money the club's ownership makes available to them. Liverpool fans need to not expect 'names'. It'll be the usual type of signings that fit the club's strategy.

[RobertoCarlos]

Alexander Arnold is the most over rated player in the prem. He's got a semi good cross on him and that's it. And he punts 700 of them a game so when 1 or 2 of them land he's hailed as the future. He can't defend for shit and he's absolutely a player you can target to exploit a weakness

[Jessicka]

I don't entirely agree with this, but there's parts I can see. From a pure outsider's perspective, it's less a case of not wanting it the second time but more a combination of the players (and manager) feeling sorry for themselves and also just being extremely burnt out.

Here's the players I would put in the world class category at Liverpool.

Alisson, Alexander Arnold, Van Dijk, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Salah, Mane. Out of them, Only Wijnaldum and Robertson have been completely fit throughout the season. They've all missed time either due to COVID or plain old injuries.

So it takes a toll on players when your spine is out for the count.

A rebuild is definitely necessary though. In an ideal world, they need another centre back, a centre midfielder, a creative midfielder and a striker.

They're definitely capable of getting 4 players in during the summer, but the quality will be down to how much money the club's ownership makes available to them. Liverpool fans need to not expect 'names'. It'll be the usual type of signings that fit the club's strategy.

That's not even a full 11, which is what I mean, it's a small squad. Even those you list, I wouldn't say half of them wouldn't throw in the towel and accept last season's success as 'enough'. The collapse is that spectacular, it's not even an attempt to play for anything anymore.

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Alexander Arnold is the most over rated player in the prem. He's got a semi good cross on him and that's it. And he punts 700 of them a game so when 1 or 2 of them land he's hailed as the future. He can't defend for shit and he's absolutely a player you can target to exploit a weakness

Agree, his defensive weakness has long been covered by being in a team that presses in its entirety, and offensively, when you're chucking 700 crosses in a game to Salah, Mane, Jota, Wijnaldum, and Fabinho, some are going to end up in the net.

[DingDongKing]

That's not even a full 11, which is what I mean, it's a small squad. Even those you list, I wouldn't say half of them wouldn't throw in the towel and accept last season's success as 'enough'. The collapse is that spectacular, it's not even an attempt to play for anything anymore.

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Agree, his defensive weakness has long been covered by being in a team that presses in its entirety, and offensively, when you're chucking 700 crosses in a game to Salah, Mane, Jota, Wijnaldum, and Fabinho, some are going to end up in the net.

Definitely a small squad, that’s not even a debate. The downturn in form for Alexander Arnold ties into the downturn in form for Liverpool in general. The 3 years they were superb under Klopp was when the entirety of the unit came together. Henderson’s play on the right with Gomez’s cover pace or Matip’s cover pace meant Trent had space to overload the wing with Salah. Saying ‘oh yeah you throw in 400 crosses and some will go in’ is a fallacy, given they’ve been throwing in crosses plenty this year too and it’s done nothing. Ultimately it’s the switches in play, stretching the opposition defence and then overloading the wings that made it work. Right now they’re not doing any of it, so he’s not working as well as he did last year. Neither is Robertson, since Mane is having a shit season, Van Dijk isn’t there in defence whilst Fabinho/Wijnaldum aren’t there to cover Robertson’s marauding runs and. That doesn’t mean someone is ‘overrated or underrated’. It’s an issue where the entire has been split apart. They’re still fantastic players, who are just not cutting the mustard this year. They’ll turn it around in time. Especially Alexander Arnold. He’s only 22.

[Henx]

A lot of points I agree with! Klopp has always been accused for tiring out his players and we all know how much physicality his style requires. Wondering if Flick's style will have the same impact, then again some of the Bayern players are fitness freaks, both in the sense of muscle and stamina. One thing that baffles me is how difficult it has been for Liverpool to score. They could have saved a lot of points if their (world class) offence would score, and I would think they should be able to score whether or not they have a good plan or not, their quality is good.

That being said I think one could say that teams have plans A and B. Guardiola has been a master of not having plan B, seen with Bayern countless times. During his Bayern days it was evident in the crucial CL games. We should have won against Atletico but it was just stupid against Real and Barcelona. Klopp also doesn't really have a plan to bail him out when the things do not go his way, and they just resort to crossing the ball even though they do not even have players for heading those crosses in.

Alexander-Arnold is quality. He is weak defensively and not close to being the best rb at defending but his ball playing is world class. IMO he is one of the best fullbacks in the world, since nowadays the fullbacks do not have to be perfect defensively.

[WarBringerPT]

What a fucking game that was. Porto eliminating Juventus. 1h -1 player.

Glorious.

[Zelk]

Juve getting worse season by season ever since they signed R*naldo is a laugh.

[Tuor]

See you next year Ronaldo...

[Zantera]

Juve getting worse season by season ever since they signed R*naldo is a laugh.

How much of it is Ronaldo's fault though? Just look at the decline in what sort of manager Juventus have had. Say what you want about Allegri, perhaps a bit 'boring' or 'defensive' but was pretty good at getting results. Then they go for Chelsea reject Sarri who did a decent job at Napoli but not a worldbeater by any means. Then they get arrogant with the Pirlo hiring by basically saying "we don't need a high pedigree coach, we are Juventus" and now they're out of CL and won't win Serie A for the first time in... a decade?

[Ophenia]

How much of it is Ronaldo's fault though? Just look at the decline in what sort of manager Juventus have had. Say what you want about Allegri, perhaps a bit 'boring' or 'defensive' but was pretty good at getting results. Then they go for Chelsea reject Sarri who did a decent job at Napoli but not a worldbeater by any means. Then they get arrogant with the Pirlo hiring by basically saying "we don't need a high pedigree coach, we are Juventus" and now they're out of CL and won't win Serie A for the first time in... a decade?

Well Ronaldo is more of a symptom here. Back in the days, Juve very rarely made expensive buys (I think the last one before Ronaldo was Buffon with 52m€ in 2001 ?), they preferred smart mercatos. Putting one year's worth of money into Ronaldo (the 100m€ + salary) prevented them to... actually build a team.

Ronaldo is an exceptional player but he can't play alone.