Aren't casuals are getting better gear than ever? Was calling it Valor the mistake?

[Argorwal]

That's the problem right there. There is no gameplay loop, no way to keep working towards something. You unlock all your covenant gear quick as hell and then you can just unsubscribe because your character is stuck. Casual players don't need the best gear in the game, but we need something to work on that progresses our character in power over the span of a patch.

So do some dungeons/PvP/raids?

How did “casuals” progress during vanilla, TBC, and 3 out of the 4 tiers of Wrath?

[FelPlague]

BIS in every slot. lol

yes? i dont see how that is lol, if you do mythic plus till you have every single item, then upgrade them to max, you now have full BIS at 220. which in a lot of ways is better then full 226, cause you can control what stats, instead of having suboptimal stats.

[Baine]

Yeah, why would people want to play the game and progress their character without doing competitive content. Truly a mystery. /s

Because I am at core a sandbox/simulator/strategy gamer. WoW is the only RPG game I play. You can progress your character the way you like it progresses. Player power is not just the only way to progress it.

[Frozenbro]

Because I am at core a sandbox/simulator/strategy gamer. WoW is the only RPG game I play. You can progress your character the way you like it progresses. Player power is not just the only way to progress it.

You can be the kind of gamer you want, but arguing that this game is wrong cause it doesnt fit your kind of gamer criteria is a meme, you cant expect a game like WoW to suddenly reward you amazing gear by esentially doing nothing, have you ever heard of the concept reward vs effort? well WoW has it and you wont be getting 220 out of doing world quests, the gear progression is ingame and it has actually diff progression paths, if you dont wanna partake in any of them, its your problem, maybe its time to leave the entitlement behind and play the actual game with its gear progression paths.

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There are plenty of garbage pieces that aren't BIS depending on the class, hence me lolling. It being incapable of being 226 in and of itself makes it NOT BIS.

You cant expect 226 bis pieces out of doing meme +15s, dont push your luck.

[FelPlague]

There are plenty of garbage pieces that aren't BIS depending on the class, hence me lolling. It being incapable of being 226 in and of itself makes it NOT BIS.

i know... but this is what he said, so hes implying hes getting the best gear he wants.

"M+ with all 15s in time gives a max of 220 after spending an absolute TON of time getting all 15s in time AND getting enough valor AND getting the piece you want to spend the points on to begin with"

[Frozenbro]

It wouldn't be from +15s and prominent people that actually push M+ haven't once advocated for such. It'd be from an 18-20 achievement.

For sure, but since wowhead datamined valor stuff, there were 2 upgrades remaining that arent showing ingame, "maybe" they are deciding which keystone lvl is a proper 1 to let you upgrade to 226, but its still uncertain and it would require some extra balance to not throw you 226 pieces too quick.

[Addiena]

It wouldn't be from +15s and prominent people that actually push M+ haven't once advocated for such. It'd be from an 18-20 achievement.

Then it'll be meme 20's and so forth, each time they will want to push that gate forwards, because the plebs should be happy with the garbage the hardcores dont want, they can't have the plebs playing on their level and embarrassing them.

such is how they play the game, the game isn't about getting gear its about stopping others from getting gear as good as your own. (Because if everyone has nice gear then you cant feel special anymore)

fuck I hate how the game makes me think like this, even worse I know on some level its fucking true and there are actual humans who think and behave this way.

I believe the term for such people is Bourgeoisie.

[Frozenbro]

Then it'll be meme 20's and so forth, each time they will want to push that gate forwards, because the plebs should be happy with the garbage the hardcores dont want, they can't have the plebs playing on their level and embarrassing them.

such is how they play the game, the game isn't about getting gear its about stopping others from getting gear as good as your own. (Because if everyone has nice gear then you cant feel special anymore)

fuck I hate how the game makes me think like this, even worse I know on some level its fucking true and there are actual humans who think and behave this way.

I believe the term for such people is Bourgeoisie.

Nice meme reply, but if you actually did high end content you would know why 226 gear coming from farming +15s isnt fair for the other 2 progression paths, but i know i wont convince you until you actually set foot on said high end content so, whatever floats your boat i guess.

[Dazu]

Off the top of my head? I recall hand of justice and the glad chest. There were other items I hung onto for quite sometime till I got better like the cloak from strat.

I still don't get what you are trying to argue beyond absurdity though. No one is talking in the extremes you are but you... if you can't make a point based on the argument without doing that I have to believe you don't have much of a point to make.

I think the only reason I touched 5mans in vanilla after I started raiding was, outside of resistance items :
A) Paladin mount.
B) helping another Paladin or Warlock get their mounts,
and C) to get things like scourgestones/righteous orbs and various other non directly gear related things.

[Addiena]

Nice meme reply

Nice meme reply .. you lost me right there, I didn't read the rest.

[Simple Rick]

I think the only reason I touched 5mans in vanilla after I started raiding was, outside of resistance items :
A) Paladin mount.
B) helping another Paladin or Warlock get their mounts,
and C) to get things like scourgestones/righteous orbs and various other non directly gear related things.

You can do that of course but you miss out on some good healing items.

[Frozenbro]

Nice meme reply .. you lost me right there, I didn't read the rest.

Ofc you didnt, same reason why you probably dont bother doing the high end content to have a meaningful opinion on why you shouldnt be rewarded with farmable 226 gear by doing +15s, but i guess its easier to swim in mediocrity.

[Baine]

You can be the kind of gamer you want, but arguing that this game is wrong cause it doesnt fit your kind of gamer criteria is a meme, you cant expect a game like WoW to suddenly reward you amazing gear by esentially doing nothing, have you ever heard of the concept reward vs effort? well WoW has it and you wont be getting 220 out of doing world quests, the gear progression is ingame and it has actually diff progression paths, if you dont wanna partake in any of them, its your problem, maybe its time to leave the entitlement behind and play the actual game with its gear progression paths.

I wonder how my post sounded I was whining about my gear level. Which is not. I am totally fine being 197 ilvl. I am quite content actually. I just say that I dont play much competitive games, which can explain I do not do high end content.

[ellieg]

Right. It's not really BAD, it's just disconcerting to do so much right after ding, see progress and then, splat, BRICK WALL. Some of the fun of an RPG is progressing your character and you do, REAALLY FAST and then you can't without a much different level of effort and coordination.

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Sure but that's a single item every week. It's effectively zero progress. If someone does 10 +15s to get all 3 GV slots, there's a decent chance that they'll also get a couple of 210s from the end of dungeon loot. If someone does a bunch of, say, +7s they will get... 200s. Which isn't an upgrade for any 197 slot except in the most technical sense.

Again, it's not so much the item level as the fact that nothing you do (aside from the GV) gives you power progress until you're doing close to a +15 or heroic CN.

Face it, they just fucked up the gearing curve by giving you so much easy 197 stuff so fast.

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I had 4k anima from doing the campaign all at one go on my alt. That let me upgrade most of the set and getting the stuff that wasn't fully upgraded to 7/7 wasn't hard.

But all of us went thru that too. Sucks u can't catch all the way up to those that started first week but I've dealt with 0-2 ilvl increase a week every week as well. Work to +15 and progress the same

[Advent]

Blizzard often names a new system after an old one that had some clout behind it. The easiest place to spot this is dungeons. Normal dungeons have effectively been removed from the game beyond leveling and simply renamed heroic dungeons. While heroic became mythic and even then eventually mythic+ as they stripped mechanics out of the old mythic.

Is the new system a mistake? Honestly I don't know. My gut tells me they should of never capped mythic+ ilv so low but rather raised it to 226 from pushing very high keys (18+ for example) as well as having loot drops simmilar to past expansions rather then the nerfed tedious drops we have now.

Sl is just a host of poorly thought out time consuming systems crippling what would otherwise be one of the best expansions in recent memory to me.

Why do relics exist? Why does a 20 man raid in sl get less loot then a 20 man raid in classic? Why is it dungeons drop two pieces of loot in mythic when in classic they dropped upwards of 20?

SL just overall feels like they bought into the idea that a busy players is happy player rather then offering a more satisfying experience.

In my case, being busy does make me happy. And I'm about as "casual" as one can get.

[schwarzkopf]

So do some dungeons/PvP/raids?

I would if there were people to do them with ... but there isn't.

How did “casuals” progress during vanilla

Didn't progress, hung out in IF talking to people (other dps) for hours each night each hunting for that elusive dungeon or raid chance.


PS: I'm not a casual by choice

[Echo of Soul]

I think the only reason I touched 5mans in vanilla after I started raiding was, outside of resistance items :
A) Paladin mount.
B) helping another Paladin or Warlock get their mounts,
and C) to get things like scourgestones/righteous orbs and various other non directly gear related things.

Yes Classic is really bad in that sense. You either raid or you have nothing to do. Retail shouldn't take notes from that game.

[WowIsDead64]

Again, as back at release, patch is released and threads pop up to tell us, how good game actually is. But when you swallow that bait and try this game yourself, it isn't that good. Still. One of changes or both are needed to make me resub. Return of flying and/or 1-1.5k anima for every calling.

[Devilyaki]

This isn't hard to understand.

IF you dislike M+ , and there are any number of obvious reasons this could be the case which I won't list here, then the entire Valor concept is a complete miss for you. By design.

Period full stop.

Completely agree, this won’t make me go into m+ I hate m+ and only ever did it for the one or two quest that required it..

[Kallisto]

people have been complaining about loot being way too common since legion, so blizzard listened, but seems people were wrong about what they wanted, and they just wanted titanforging gone.

They thought they wanted something but they didn't. Like most things with this community.