First independent report into Xinjiang genocide allegations claims evidence of...

[Elegiac]

Genocide and violence is never acceptable so I'm not sure where you are getting this from.

"If people do X, they should expect Y" is saying Y is an acceptable response to X. Stop being obtuse.

Also, I'm an older Millennial and not a Boomer but it's irrelevant because age doesn't matter.

Indeed, because as I said the take is a Boomer one. That you're ostensibly a millennial and repeating it makes it even worse, fucking lol.

[PC2]

Evidence, please.

That doesn't make any sense. Can you give me an example of what you are asking for? What kind of evidence are you looking for?

Imagine taking such a stance to blame the victims of fucking genocide.

I'm blaming China for the genocide. Nothing the Uigurs have ever done makes genocide their fault. That doesn't mean one side is evil and the other side is faultless though. The CCP is evil but it doesn't make the other side perfect.

No wonder you said you'd vote for Hitler.

No, that's imaginary and fictional and you know it.

[Machismo]

That doesn't make any sense. Can you give me an example of what you are asking for? What kind of evidence are you looking for?


I'm blaming China for the genocide. Nothing the Uigurs have ever done makes genocide their fault. That doesn't mean one side is evil and the other side is faultless though. The CCP is evil but it doesn't make the other side perfect.


No, that's imaginary and fictional and you know it.

You made claims, I expect evidence.

Just because it doesn't make sense to you... isn't really my problem.

And yes... you did.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...outrage/page36

[Biglog]

I'm wholeheartedly in support of anything that can stop it, but the OP and some of the ideas on this aren't well hashed out. First, to compare it to the WW2 holocaust is apples and oranges since that was a world war where borders were in contest, etc. This is an internal issue in a sovereign country, not at war. Secondly, the Germans killed millions in the holocaust whereas this is in the several thousand. The Allies did not enter WW2 to free the concentration camps and stop the genocide. That was kept secret as much as possible by the Axis and the Allies started hearing rumors around 1943, but they really didn't know the scale of what was going on until the last days of the war. So insinuating the West entered WW2 to stop the holocaust, so why don't they do it now in China, is a pretty gross misunderstanding of what happened in WW2. That was done to defeat fascism, freeing the camps came with it at the end but that's absolutely not why they went to war. The camps didn't even exist at the start of the war.

There isn't much precedent for other countries intervening in a sovereign country's internal bad handling of a minority group. It's also a slippery slope, should China be involved in internal US affairs on behalf of oppressed Blacks who are victims of police abuse in the US, immigrants locked in cages at the border, or UK/EU/Russia because of bad treatment of minorities? China has made it pretty clear that just diplomatically complaining about Xinjiang and asking them to change is totally disregarded as an internal issue.

What would be great is if the world (ahem UN, if it wasn't toothless) joined in a global boycott of Chinese goods until this behavior is stopped. That puts people out of work, and idle factories and idle unhappy workers are the biggest fear of the CCP. That would cause change. But as long as anyone with veto power at the UN can block any action, the UN won't help. If it's just a handful of countries that boycott or sanction, they'd just increase exports to other countries to offset while not changing anything in Xinjiang. It is also kind of surprising that even the Olympic Committee which in the past has excluded countries to bring attention to this type of minority treatment, are more than happy to have China host repeatedly. Money talks I guess.

[Elegiac]

I'm wholeheartedly in support of anything that can stop it, but the OP and some of the ideas on this aren't well hashed out. First, to compare it to the WW2 holocaust is apples and oranges since that was a world war where borders were in contest, etc. This is an internal issue in a sovereign country, not at war.

That has no bearing on whether or not it's a genocide or comparable to similar instances of genocide.

Secondly, the Germans killed millions in the holocaust whereas this is in the several thousand.

In which you admit the only difference is degree.

The Allies did not enter WW2 to free the concentration camps and stop the genocide.

This is a strawman, no one claimed this.

That was kept secret as much as possible by the Axis and the Allies started hearing rumors around 1943, but they really didn't know the scale of what was going on until the last days of the war.

This is just outright bullshit designed to absolve the Allies of looking the other way until it became publicly unacceptable to do so.

So insinuating the West entered WW2 to stop the holocaust, so why don't they do it now in China, is a pretty gross misunderstanding of what happened in WW2. That was done to defeat fascism, freeing the camps came with it at the end but that's absolutely not why they went to war.

Again, this is a strawman. What's being pointed out by the comparison is that Americans back then were equally as disposed to looking the other way in an instance of genocide when the oppressed groups are people that Americans themselves also oppress.

The camps didn't even exist at the start of the war.

Also bullshit, Oranienburg concentration camp was opened in 1933.

[PC2]

You made claims, I expect evidence.

I need to know what kind of evidence you are looking. All I'm asking for is a description of what you would need in order to be convinced.

And yes... you did.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...outrage/page36

Your link is proving my point so that's a self-own on your part. My point is that in politics you should focus on policy and ideas and not on people. Similarly in a thread you should focus on ideas that relate to the topic and not on the people in a thread. Even after multiple years you still haven't been able to understand my point.

[Machismo]

I need to know what kind of evidence you are looking. All I'm asking for is a description of what you would need in order to be convinced.


Your link is proving my point so that's a self-own on your part. My point is that in politics you should focus on policy and ideas and not on people. Similarly in a thread you should focus on ideas that relate to the topic and not on the people in a thread. Even after multiple years you still haven't been able to understand my point.

Evidence for all your claims, thanks... it's weird you keep trying to make this about what I didn't say. It's weird that you claim to want to focus on ideas, but when challenged on your "ideas" you have no evidence to offer. Feel free to keep shifting that burden of evidence.

Nope, you straight said you'd vote for Hitler, if he promised to implement the policies you wanted. It's in the thread. Enjoy!!!

[PC2]

Evidence for all your claims, thanks...

That's called sea-lioning. You need to pick one specific claim otherwise I have no way of knowing what your are referencing.

Nope, you straight said you'd vote for Hitler, if he promised to implement the policies you wanted. It's in the thread. Enjoy!!!

My point is that you should vote based on policies and not on the person. If you vote based on the person and not on policy then that's your prerogative. We can agree to disagree.

Also let's keep posts on topic as opposed to making the thread about you or me.

[Machismo]

That's called sea-lioning. You need to pick one specific claim otherwise I have no way of knowing what your are referencing.


My point is that you should vote based on policies and not on the person. If you vote based on the person and not on policy then that's your prerogative. We can agree to disagree.

Also let's keep posts on topic as opposed to making the thread about you or me.

Nope, you made claims, and you cannot back them up. Don't blame your gish gallop on me.

I made claims, and provided evidence. And this is on-topic, you have yet to provide evidence for your bullshit claims.

Your point is that you have no evidence.

[Stelio Kontos]

I wasn't even talking about religion or Islam. I'm not saying it is irrational for them to want secession and autonomy in theory I'm only saying they should understand that holding those ideas is basically a guarantee of further oppression. Even non-oppressive countries take it very seriously and there's no need for it because it's always possible to resolve differences within current structures without rebellion.

Strongly disagree. People have a right to self-determination. You would have told my grandfather and great-grandfather that they should have stayed slaves in the Ottoman Empire and just worked from within to change things. Fuck that. The Uighurs would be entirely justified in an uprising/jihad.

[crewskater]

Aaaaaaand here we are. The person who will claim not be an Islamophobe but also seems to comfortable with active persecution of Muslims.

"The way we kill people is OK, the way Muslims do is not!"

Just because I'm against a shitty religion doesn't mean I support their followers being thrown into concentration camps.

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The mortality rate and per capita infection rate of the US stands out among comparable developed nations.

We also have the most obese and unhealthiest nation in the world. Both of which covid has the highest impact on.

[PC2]

Nope, you made claims, and you cannot back them up. Don't blame your gish gallop on me.

I made claims, and provided evidence. And this is on-topic, you have yet to provide evidence for your bullshit claims.

Your point is that you have no evidence.

I don't know what you want evidence for because your request is too vague.

Strongly disagree. People have a right to self-determination. You would have told my grandfather and great-grandfather that they should have stayed slaves in the Ottoman Empire and just worked from within to change things. Fuck that. The Uighurs would be entirely justified in an uprising/jihad.

I understand how a person could arrive at that conclusion but I view it as a result of too much pessimism. You don't believe in the power of people/groups to reason with each other and transcend the use of force.

[Elegiac]

Just because I'm against a shitty religion doesn't mean I support their followers being thrown into concentration camps.

Grats on not being as bad as the people doing actual genocide, I guess? They don't give a Nobel Prize in casual bigotry, lol.

[Machismo]

I don't know what you want evidence for because your request is too vague.


I understand how a person could arrive at that conclusion but I view it as a result of too much pessimism. You don't believe in the power of people/groups to reason with each other and transcend the use of force.

Maybe you should go back to the comment I initially replied to... the one where you tried to shift the burden onto me.

[Elegiac]

I understand how a person could arrive at that conclusion but I view it as a result of too much pessimism. You don't believe in the power of people/groups to reason with each other and transcend the use of force.

I don't believe I could or should "reason" with people that think my right to exist is a matter of opinion, which is what you're implying with this statement.

Wanting everyone to hold hands and work things out does not work when there are members of the community that are distinctly hostile to the very existence of other members and will actively promote policies designed to marginalize or eliminate them. There is no "compromise" to be had with genocide; people either have the right to exist, or they don't.

Maybe think about the implications of the bullshit you post before you hit the reply button.

[Machismo]

According to some people, the reason the Jews were killed in the Holocaust, is that they weren't nice enough to the Nazis.

They believe the same bullshit about the Uighers being genocided by the Chinese government.

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I don't believe I could or should "reason" with people that think my right to exist is a matter of opinion, which is what you're implying with this statement.

"If you were nicer to the Nazis in WWII, then maybe they wouldn't have killed all the Jews."

-Certain people-

[crewskater]

Grats on not being as bad as the people doing actual genocide, I guess? They don't give a Nobel Prize in casual bigotry, lol.

Not sure where you're getting the bigotry from..

[Rasulis]

Short of the west invading China and annexing Xinjiang. I don't see what the world can do about the Uighur situation.

If they could do it without starting WW3, I would not mind the US taking over Xinjiang. We have started wars in some of the ugliest regions of the world with little pretext. On the other hand, I have done my share of travels, and Xinjiang is bar none one most the most beautiful region I have ever been. Our last trip there was there was 2017 and it had become a police state. Big difference from our 2012 trip, and definitely nothing like our two trips in 2005 - 2007 when it was still normal.

[Stelio Kontos]

I understand how a person could arrive at that conclusion but I view it as a result of too much pessimism. You don't believe in the power of people/groups to reason with each other and transcend the use of force.

No group has any obligation to live under another group or government that has enslaved or viciously abused them. It's not pessimistic for a slave to rise up against his slaver. And it's not pessimistic for people being mass-sterilized, put into camps, and ethnically cleansed to say we don't want to live under your boot anymore.

Any hope of high-mindedness went out the window when women started being systematically raped or sterilized, and people started disappearing into concentration camps. At that point, war or jihad is an act of survival.

[PC2]

No group has any obligation to live under another group or government that has enslaved or viciously abused them. It's not pessimistic for a slave to rise up against his slaver. And it's not pessimistic for people being mass-sterilized, put into camps, and ethnically cleansed to say we don't want to live under your boot anymore.

Any hope of high-mindedness went out the window when women started being systematically raped or sterilized, and people started disappearing into concentration camps. At that point, war or jihad is an act of survival.

I don't know man this sounds like a terrible idea. The moment an oppressed group starts justifying and engaging in violence they lose the moral high ground in my eyes. It's why I don't shed very many tears for other groups like Palestinians.