This expansion showcased how people do not enjoy m+ at all

[MoanaLisa]

I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.

[Paulosio]

But that they enjoy the loot it gives.

In BfA you could reach Mythic level of gear by just doing a weekly +15. People were so used to easy gearing like that, that they cry about it this expansion.
People do not enjoy m+ for the content it brings, they solely enjoy to do it because of the loot it gives.

Only a small minority seems to enjoy m+ so much, the rest only cares about the gear.
So many people crying that the gear isn't a high enough ilvl and that it's not often dropped.

I thought that people enjoyed this content regardless? I thought m+ was fun? What happened?

Is there any content in the entire game that people do without a reward at the end? Even levelling is just a means to an end (that end being reaching end game where the real rewards and progression are)...

The only thing I can think of is RP which is something very few players take part in.

Most content I do including mythic plus is for the gear reward which helps me with raiding.... I do enjoy beating the raids but if there were no gear drops or character progression available in raids i'm honestly not sure if i'd bother with raiding either.

People enjoy advancing their character....

[Belloc]

Well, M+ is a different kind of challenge. I don't play it because my class is not suited very well for it. But I see m+ more of simply a loot source than raids. Because m+ never really changes, apart from the cut at +10. Sure, the health and damage values get higher, but that's not very interesting. It's fun, nonetheless, but not as challenging (or fun) as getting 20 people to coordinate in a bossfight. More players equals more fun to me.



Well, I don't know any modern multiplayer games then. Maybe Fall guys? Overwatch? But nobody plays those for the loot. Neither would I think that anybody buys a season pass to make a game worth playing. Those that do like the game (even without rewards) so much, that they are willing to spend money on it.

Personally, I play Apex Legends every day. Part of the reason that I play it every single day is the fact that I have the battle pass (it pays for itself if you complete it, so I haven't had to actually pay for the battle pass for several seasons now) and I need to play it enough to make it pay for itself. I mean, I love the game, but I wouldn't feel the need to actually play every day if it weren't for that battle pass.

[Varaben]

What I wish for M+ is that they would have more "mega" dungeons, like hopefully the upcoming 9.0 one is. Dungeons that are between a 3-5 boss "dungeon" and a 10 boss raid. Something that takes like an hour to complete vs. a 30 minute dungeon or a 3 hour raid. I really enjoy small group content, and I know you can technically do 10 man raids, but they're far from optimal from what I've heard.

My biggest problem with Mythic+ is not the repetition, though that is a problem. My beef is the way they increase difficulty is through "dance" mechanics. Things like vortexes flying around and volcanoes on the ground and stuff like that. I'd prefer they just be...harder. Or add those mechanics to bosses only. Mechanics like Prideful or Tyrannical might not be interesting, but to me I'd rather they just stacked those. Make only %-based increases either to trash or bosses and just make the thing super hard. Not through gimmicky (not to mention melee-unfriendly) mechanics though. Or just make it tiers like raids have.

To be honest, "heroic" and "mythic" dungeons are obviously pretty stupid names when you compare them to raids. M0 is actually the real dungeon. So just redo this whole thing. You've got "normal" dungeons that are (to use Shadowlands ilevels) in the 171 range for gear (you gear up for those with quests, world quests, crafted gear), then heroics are in the 184 range, then Mythics are in the 200 range. From there, you jump to "M+" and just make like 2 more tiers above that (213 and 220 gear drops) which are huge jumps in difficulty. Call them whatever you want "Legendary" "Epic" dungeons or something. The whole idea of speed running slightly more difficult versions of the same dungeons over and over is dumb. Let's say the max level 4 dungeons are actually WAY bigger like 8 bosses and only available on Mythic and above difficulty and take like an hour or an hour and a half to do.

That's my (probably flawed) vision for small group content.

[LordVargK]

Personally, I play Apex Legends every day. Part of the reason that I play it every single day is the fact that I have the battle pass (it pays for itself if you complete it, so I haven't had to actually pay for the battle pass for several seasons now) and I need to play it enough to make it pay for itself. I mean, I love the game, but I wouldn't feel the need to actually play every day if it weren't for that battle pass.

I'm probably the exact opposite of you: If a game strongly encourages me to login every day, I will lose interest in that game quickly. I don't want a game to control my free time. If I want to play, I'll play. If not, then I don't want to feel like I'm missing out. That's the reason I skipped BfA's and Legion's first patches. That's why I stopped playing Hearthstone. Even if I somewhat like a game, such a system is a major turnoff.
Undoubtly such systems work for many other people though. But it does not make a bad game better, just good games even more attracting (for some).

[Zka]

If anything, it showcases how fucked up m+ are. It's the 3rd iteration and worst by far so far. Overcomplicated, untuned, unrewarding. Shame, the format have had so much potential, but of course they had to fuck it up.

[Glorious Leader]

I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.

This blatantly false in almost every fashion. In fact slowly trying to nudge people towards organized raiding has been the colossal failure while alternate advancement systems that introduce grinding for power (which is basically the same as gear) has been an overwhelming success to the point they replicate it basically every expansion

[potis]

I like M+ well enough but I only run it with a regular group. I imagine that's an entirely different experience than doing it with random strangers. Actually, nearly everything in the game is an entirely different (and better) experience if you're doing it with friends or guildmates.

I'm quite sure that getting better gear early on is a design response to people not staying around and a nudge to get them to add organized raiding to their activities. The argument that they would stay if it took longer—or to put it colloquially, more of a grind—is wrong and has been demonstrated to be so for some years now.

It all depends how you wanna play really, guildies or not is kinda irrelevant.

99% of my M+ groups are IRL friends/guildies, but in reality if i wanted to be serious about M+, i would have to ignore all IRL friends and most of my guild apart from 2-4 people and play with the proper pugs (Its a number up to 40 people or so).

Pretty sure its the same for many people, but since i dont do that, cause if i ignore them i am gonna be stuck with undergeared slackers that cant do anything, so i suck it up, destroy my mental health for a few weeks at the start of every patch cycle, help them out with weeklies and then i just get the seasonal KSM with the slightly better friends/people on my friend list.

Blizzard stopped trying to get people to raid for a few expansions now also, its the reason why there isnt any quest/campaign or anything similar involving a raid, remember how G'huun was required for the main story, and that part was completely removed afterwards and you just skipped it on alts also?

Yeah, there was a reason they did that

Also depends how you view things, from my point of view, Legion and SL worked exactly as they should, i saw/have many expansion hoppers still playing or at least playing alts now, instead of unsubbing after the first month or two as they did in every expansion apart from those two, same with BFA, most disappeared the second-third month.

What the OP has completely failed to realize is that, people will play whatever is the most efficient way to gear even if they dislike it.

If they add freebie relevant gear to pet battles, people will be pet battling like there is no tomorrow.

I couldnt care less about PvP/Arena in WoW, its an unbalanced joke, yet back in MoP when i restarted the game, all my alts geared up that way, because it was the most efficient way, the same way many people are using PvP to do that.

[anon5123]

The only things I don't like about M+ are the raider.io elitism, and Prideful.

Pugs expect you to have +17s cleared before inviting you to a +15. It just gets new players stuck in a loop where if you don't have a guild to run with you, you're fucked.

And Prideful just makes it so you have to kill the trash in weird specific orders or it fucks up the run. That's not fun or interesting, just more crap you have to memorize.

[potis]

The only things I don't like about M+ are the raider.io elitism, and Prideful.

Pugs expect you to have +17s cleared before inviting you to a +15. It just gets new players stuck in a loop where if you don't have a guild to run with you, you're fucked.

And Prideful just makes it so you have to kill the trash in weird specific orders or it fucks up the run. That's not fun or interesting, just more crap you have to memorize.

This argument gets boring, run your own keys, yes it will take much longer, yes you will ruin it completely with leavers and you have to play 500% more hours than you want to.

Or you could have done this 5 years ago and stuck with the same guild or people.

Only people complaining about content, are the people that refuse to understand its still a MMO, and the Multiplayer part goes away when you have proven to be skillful and people -come to you- so you never have to care, or when you completely stop caring about actually playing the game properly.

[theostrichsays]

I've pretty well quit playing for the time being, and am doubtful on returning in 9.1 honestly, but I've got keystone master as all 3 roles with my guild and as a tank in pugs. I'm not a massive key pusher but I did a couple of 19's and 20's so I'm not awful but not anywhere near the best.

I have grown to dislike keys mostly because of the community around them, but also because the go go go is tiring. I actually thought torghast was going to be the solution when it was initially announced, but that flopped. I guess it's the boomer in me but I liked dungeon diving, not speed racing. With guildies I watched cooldowns called out which dps cooldowns and what cc to use and pack to pack to pack, and honestly I don't really remember a helluva lot about them. For the countless dungeons run, I have only a couple memories that stand out, between BFA and Shadowlands. Going all the way back to Mists at least the challenge modes had the options of trying out lots of different gear combos because the gear was normalized.

I will say though this launch was the absolute worst for pugging my warrior through keystone master. I had little trouble with groups as I mostly only ran my own keys, but the number of people who were clearly carried to their own keystone master was absurd. Even when I was on lower keys I remember all the people who had 1 or 2 +15 all from a SA server or an Illidian/Area 52 guild. Then nothing timed going down to sub 10's sometimes. Raider io was a start but I felt like I was a detective with all the terrible boomkin/mages and often didn't invite either.

But I after the launch fun, I quit doing it for fun and only for loot. I agree with OP on that, it was easy loot that felt mandatory for mythic progression, and the moment people quit running them I didn't miss it at all.