Making a case for Ranged Tanking in WoW

[datguy81]

That said, what in my concept specifically do you think is layered and convoluted?

Yes I think it is, Your concept has zero pvp viability

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I miss MoP beta. Remember when the community hotness was widespread speculation that Demonology was going to be a clothie/minion tanking spec?

yea but it was never added for good reason.

[Teriz]

This thread is like a guy saying, "Please do not make this thread about robots," then going on to describe robots in meticulous unflinching detail and then getting mad at everybody for (correctly) realizing that he really just wanted to talk about robots the whole fucking time.

I'd be lying if I didn't say that this concept works better with a technology/mechanical theme, since the "pet" thematically works better as an inanimate object. That said, it could work with any theme.

/snip

I tell you what; I'll discuss PvP if you admit that my ranged tanking concept works in PvE.

Deal?

[datguy81]

This thread is like a guy saying, "Please do not make this thread about robots," then going on to describe robots in meticulous unflinching detail and then getting mad at everybody for (correctly) realizing that he really just wanted to talk about robots the whole fucking time.

Yea I find it funny when pvp is mentioned a part of the game and all of sudden no answers show up and it is just ignored and skipped over with the replies

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I'd be lying if I didn't say that this concept works better with a technology/mechanical theme, since the "pet" thematically works better as an inanimate object. That said, it could work with any theme.

We all know it was made to be a technology/mechanical theme tinker thread until the mod stepped in. I love how the class works for PVE but when I bring up pvp you ignore it at ever turn

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I tell you what; I'll discuss PvP if you admit that my ranged tanking concept works in PvE.

Deal?

I said issues with it would need addressed
They would have to rework the pet ai.
Change every scripted combat encounter in the game for the past 15 years.
Dungeons
melee mobs
boss positioning
high movement fights where you have to kite.
PVP
Challenge modes

Your concept has so many issues that would need to be addressed but instead of addressing them you want an echo chamber. Seems you don't want to discuss pvp unless someone agrees with your concept and ignore the issues it presents.

Also your past remarks

Again, I have no desire to discuss PvP with individuals who are purposely ignoring my points in regards to PvE. Also it's hilarious to say that I've evaded the questions in 90% of this thread when the PvP question only came up about 10 posts ago.

Again, there's no point in discussing PvP since you're purposely ignoring my points in PvE.

It’s more that since you’re purposely ignoring the points I’ve made about PvE, why would I waste time discussing PvP with you?

PVP is a part of the game you can not have a discussion about adding a class or spec to the game and ignore a core part of the game.

[Teriz]

I said issues with it would need addressed
They would have to rework the pet ai.

Except they wouldn't, since this concept has nothing to do with pet AI.

Change every scripted combat encounter in the game for the past 15 years.

Except they wouldn't because this concept allows the ranged tank to fight in melee if necessary.

Dungeons
melee mobs
boss positioning
high movement fights where you have to kite.

All addressed.

PvP

And like I said, there's no point in discussing PvP since you've demonstrated that you ignore my PvE counterpoints completely.

Your concept has so many issues that would need to be addressed but instead of addressing them you want an echo chamber.

And here is yet another example of what I'm talking about. I have never shied away from open dialogue regarding this concept. However, I'm not going to continuously engage in circular arguments with individuals who have no desire to have an honest conversation, but instead have an axe to grind against me personally for whatever reason.

[datguy81]

Except they wouldn't, since this concept has nothing to do with pet AI.

So the pet is not controlled by the AI

Except they wouldn't because this concept allows the ranged tank to fight in melee if necessary.

Than it would not be a ranged tank? what's the difference between a pally in range throwing judgements and av or a druid going ranged to go moonkin

All addressed.

The barrier you keep bringing up would make them a free hk in pvp

And like I said, there's no point in discussing PvP since you've demonstrated that you ignore my PvE counterpoints completely.

No one is ignoring your counterpoints they been debunked over and over again. Disagreeing is not the same as ignoring. The ranged tank would not work in pvp thats why there is no point in discussing it.

And here is yet another example of what I'm talking about. I have never shied away from open dialogue regarding this concept. However, I'm not going to continuously engage in circular arguments with individuals who have no desire to have an honest conversation, but instead have an axe to grind against me personally for whatever reason.

Sorry to say but anytime someone has brought up pvp you have avoided it or rebuttable with you are not going to discuss it because people are ignoring your points. It honestly seems you have nothing for the said class idea in pvp and instead of an HONEST conversation about it you want to say people have an "axe to grind with you" Has anything posted been an attack on you? no. I have simply said how the concept will not work and have said time and time again it will not work in pvp.

You flat out said you will not discuss it in pvp unless I agree your idea would work that in its self is wanting an eco chamber and people to agree with you. Looks like to me the last thing you want is an honest conversation

this was your replays to two other posters and my self

I tell you what; I'll discuss PvP if you admit that my ranged tanking concept works in PvE.Deal?

Again, I have no desire to discuss PvP with individuals who are purposely ignoring my points in regards to PvE. Also it's hilarious to say that I've evaded the questions in 90% of this thread when the PvP question only came up about 10 posts ago.

Again, there's no point in discussing PvP since you're purposely ignoring my points in PvE.

It’s more that since you’re purposely ignoring the points I’ve made about PvE, why would I waste time discussing PvP with you?

How can you say "I have never shied away from open dialogue regarding this concept"

[Ielenia]

Please see the Tracking and Leash abilities in the OP. Yes you can move the pet and use abilities while you're moving yourself.

I'll repeat:

No. No, they cannot. And that's a fact. Especially in boss fights with heavy movement or worse, mythic+ runs when we have one of the following affixes: sanguine, quaking, volcanic and storming.

You have yet to address those issues. A tank has to be under almost constant movement in mythic+ fights, for trash AND bosses. Everything you propose offers zero benefits, and only adds unnecessary layers of complexity. It's a D.O.A. concept:
• What's the benefit of staying at range if the tank still has to worry about melee damage and melee abilities?
• What's the benefit of staying at range if the tank has to also worry about ranged mechanics on top of melee mechanics?
• Your idea would force a heavy dumb-down of the game's mechanics to fit your gimmicky idea. Many current boss and encounter mechanics would have to be heavily altered or outright removed to make room for this concept.

I never said they were. I'm saying that the better you get at the class, the less time you'll have to spend using the merge ability. Just like the best tanks seemingly taking no damage because they've mastered their mitigation abilities, the best ranged tank would be spending the vast majority of its time in range instead of having to use the Merge/Mount abilities.

You said it when you said that "highly skilled players won't need training wheels". And I'll repeat what I said earlier that you skipped:

If your class requires "training wheels" to be effective, you failed at class design.

You were making the argument that this tank dealing more damage than other tanks would be some sort of issue.

Except I never said that. I only said that the damage a tank does is meaningless.

I was merely pointing out that we have that situation in WoW currently, and it isn't a problem.

And I never said it is. I simply said it's not a quality one looks for when picking tanks for their groups. That's like picking up healers for their tanking ability or DPS for their healer abilities.

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Except they wouldn't, since this concept has nothing to do with pet AI.

The simple fact you have to say this only serves to further evidence how little you know about how game mechanics actually work.

[datguy81]

snip

The fact the class has zero pvp viability makes it DOA. As soon as PVP was brought up the evasion on addressing it began and keeps going. No way for a class to function in just pve. Everything I posted about pvp will be ignored it seems so I will have to keep bringing it up until it is addressed

[Teriz]

I'll repeat:

And like I said, merge if you don't have the reaction time to move the "pet" around effectively.

You have yet to address those issues. A tank has to be under almost constant movement in mythic+ fights, for trash AND bosses. Everything you propose offers zero benefits, and only adds unnecessary layers of complexity. It's a D.O.A. concept:
• What's the benefit of staying at range if the tank still has to worry about melee damage and melee abilities?

The ability to tank at range.

• What's the benefit of staying at range if the tank has to also worry about ranged mechanics on top of melee mechanics?

The ability to tank at range.

• Your idea would force a heavy dumb-down of the game's mechanics to fit your gimmicky idea. Many current boss and encounter mechanics would have to be heavily altered or outright removed to make room for this concept.

In the multitudes of responses I've made to this topic, that has never been the case. This is nothing more than an assumption on your part. Again, the concept handles this "problem" by simply allowing the tank to fight in melee range if absolutely necessary. If the player develops a high enough level of skill, that requirement lessens. You're simply creating problems where none exist.

You said it when you said that "highly skilled players won't need training wheels". And I'll repeat what I said earlier that you skipped:

So we're going to pretend that no tank in WoW has highly skilled players who can play a spec far better than other players?

Except I never said that. I only said that the damage a tank does is meaningless.

You implied it. And obviously the damage a tank does is meaningful because it's mentioned as a pro for the Vengeance tank spec in many guides. Here's one of them;

https://www.wowhead.com/news/shadowl...%20access%20to.

And I never said it is. I simply said it's not a quality one looks for when picking tanks for their groups. That's like picking up healers for their tanking ability or DPS for their healer abilities.

See above.

[ozzynclyde]

22 pages of disputes but still keeping the dream alive!

[datguy81]

22 pages of disputes but still keeping the dream alive!

it's easy to do if you ignore pvp and all disputes

[Teriz]

it's easy to do if you ignore pvp and all disputes

I've given you my criteria for discussing PvP. In fact, add @arkanon to it as well. If you both agree that this concept works in PvE, I'll happily discuss PvP.

If you don't want to meet my criteria, then feel free to continue to do what you're doing.

[Clouds2]

A ranged tank does not functionally work with how the game is designed. Period, no if ands or buts about it. It simply DOES NOT WORK. No, “oh but you can move the pet and yourself”, or “your pet follows the boss”. These are not solutions to the actual issues, and there just are no solutions to the game. The OP keeps saying “oh well I’m trying to make it work”. You are trying to fit a square in a slot that only fits a circle, and in order to do so you need to redesign the square to be a circle. Thus, ranged tanks do not work in this game unless it’s some very niche scenario where it’s one phase of a boss and that boss is designed around that (mimirions air phase or crucible of storms).

There have been a lot of people that have politely tried to explain to the op why this would not work. But maybe it just needs to happen sternly. This idea is idiotic and will not work with the way the game is designed. The OP has very much shown he does not understand how this game works.

Can we just close this thread as it is essentially just a troll thread?

[ozzynclyde]

I've given you my criteria for discussing PvP. In fact, add @arkanon to it as well. If you both agree that this concept works in PvE, I'll happily discuss PvP.

If you don't want to meet my criteria, then feel free to continue to do what you're doing.

Well....no one here has agreed that it would work in PVE

[Teriz]

A ranged tank does not functionally work with how the game is designed. Period, no if ands or buts about it. It simply DOES NOT WORK. No, “oh but you can move the pet and yourself”, or “your pet follows the boss”. These are not solutions to the actual issues, and there just are no solutions to the game. The OP keeps saying “oh well I’m trying to make it work”. You are trying to fit a square in a slot that only fits a circle, and in order to do so you need to redesign the square to be a circle. Thus, ranged tanks do not work in this game unless it’s some very niche scenario where it’s one phase of a boss and that boss is designed around that (mimirions air phase or crucible of storms).

There have been a lot of people that have politely tried to explain to the op why this would not work. But maybe it just needs to happen sternly. This idea is idiotic and will not work with the way the game is designed. The OP has very much shown he does not understand how this game works.

Can we just close this thread as it is essentially just a troll thread?

Yeah, this thread has shown multiple times precisely how a ranged tank would work perfectly well under the architecture of WoW tanking. If you disagree, please provide some specific examples of how this concept wouldn't work beyond making blanket statements. I would also recommend that you actually read the OP and this thread before commenting further.

[Ielenia]

And like I said, merge if you don't have the reaction time to move the "pet" around effectively.

Completely negating the "ranged" part of "ranged tank".

The ability to tank at range.

The ability to tank at range.

I fail to see this as a benefit considering, again, it not only offers zero benefits since you still have to worry about melee damage and melee mechanics. The purpose of being at range is precisely not having to worry about melee damage and melee mechanics. On top of that, there's also the downside of having to worry about ranged mechanics as well as all melee mechanics.

You keep saying "tanking at range" is somehow a benefit, and yet you never explain WHY it's a benefit.

And again: how will this fight work in fights like mythic Sludgefist? The tanks are linked together, so the "ranged" tank would be forced to be melee the entire time, negating the "ranged" thing.

In the multitudes of responses I've made to this topic, that has never been the case. This is nothing more than an assumption on your part. Again, the concept handles this "problem" by simply allowing the tank to fight in melee range if absolutely necessary. If the player develops a high enough level of skill, that requirement lessens. You're simply creating problems where none exist.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact. Encounter mechanics would have to be severely altered and some outright removed to make room for a ranged tank to be viable, and many examples have been given, of both raid and dungeon, which would mean a heavy simplification of the game (colloquially known as "dumb-down").

So we're going to pretend that no tank in WoW has highly skilled players who can play a spec far better than other players?

Except that not only was never my argument, but it's also a false comparison, since none of the classes present in the game have "training wheels". Average and skilled, new players and veterans, all use the same tools available their class. I simply pointed out that if you have to add "training wheels" to a class to make it viable, you failed at class design.

That's like saying the average prot warrior players would tank wielding a shield, but more skilled players would not only be better tanks than the average prot warrior player, but would do so without wielding shields.

See above.

Re-read your link. It also specifically says that DHs have high self-sustaining thanks to self-healing, and high magic damage reduction, on top of being high mobility. Higher damage is just an afterthought. Again, picking tanks for their DPS is like picking healers for their taking abilities.

[Teriz]

Well....no one here has agreed that it would work in PVE

Yes, because instead of agreeing, they get upset and take their toys and go home. Those wanting to discuss PvP now are doing so because they have no argument against PvE.

[Ielenia]

I've given you my criteria for discussing PvP. In fact, add @arkanon to it as well. If you both agree that this concept works in PvE, I'll happily discuss PvP.

So you refuse to discuss ideas with people unless they agree with you? That's called an echo-chamber, not a discussion. You're running away from having to discuss PvP. You're literally refusing to discuss your own concept.

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Yes, because instead of agreeing, they get upset and take their toys and go home. Those wanting to discuss PvP now are doing so because they have no argument against PvE.

Um, no. They have arguments against PvE. They're just more interested in PvP, probably because they play PvP more than PvE.

By the way, using your same arguemnt: "You're avoiding discussing PvP because you know you have no arguments for PvP."

[datguy81]

Yes, because instead of agreeing, they get upset and take their toys and go home. Those wanting to discuss PvP now are doing so because they have no argument against PvE.

a mountain of evidence has been pointed out on why it does not work in pve. I am a pvp player I wanna know how this would work in pvp

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So you refuse to discuss ideas with people unless they agree with you? That's called an echo-chamber, not a discussion. You're running away from having to discuss PvP. You're literally refusing to discuss your own concept.

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Um, no. They have arguments against PvE. They're just more interested in PvP, probably because they play PvP more than PvE.

By the way, using your same arguemnt: "You're avoiding discussing PvP because you know you have no arguments for PvP."

Thats what I have noticed pvp can not be discussed unless people agree with his concept and say it is right. We all know this thread was made as a tinker thread anyways. I don't see why the mod don't just close it down. the op does not want to have a discussion but wants an echo chamber

[Clouds2]

Yeah, this thread has shown multiple times precisely how a ranged tank would work perfectly well under the architecture of WoW tanking. If you disagree, please provide some specific examples of how this concept wouldn't work beyond making blanket statements. I would also recommend that you actually read the OP and this thread before commenting further.

I recommend you actually play the game before commenting further. This idea is completely idiotic and shows your lack of game knowledge. IT SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK.

You have not “shown” how it would work. You have simply spewed random ass comments that do not address actual issues, further your “solutions” do not work for wow raiding. Basically what you have said in this thread is, “I am right, the 400 people all telling me I’m wrong are the wrong ones”. In any competitive gameplay this simply does not work. I can’t understand why you can’t seem to get that through your head. Any time someone has explained to you why it does not work you ignore it and accuse them of having some personal vendetta against you. And any time someone brings another part of the game up you essentially say “I won’t talk about it until you all tell me I’m right”, even though there are 22 pages of experienced players telling you what a dumb idea this is for the current game design.

Please close this thread.

[bloodkin]

Concept 1: Technician: A technology-based spec that uses shields and ranged weaponry

The premise is a tank spec that uses guns and energy shields. The "pet" is the energy shield. The PC projects the field in front of them like Sigma from Overwatch's shields. The field emits threat, and increases damage the PC does to the enemy when the PC shoots through the field. In return, when the boss hits the field, there is feedback and the PC takes damage.

Movement: The PC can have the field follow their lateral movements, can have the field remain stationary, can teleport to the field's location and taking its threat level, and project the field forward as they teleport backwards. I'd be open to the possibility of the tank perhaps being able to project shields in other directions other than forward, or perhaps being able to move an existing shield to a new location.

Movement abilities;

Button 1: Summon/Unsummon barrier. Hold button to move barrier forward. Once barrier is established, press again to cancel.
Button 2: Tracking (toggle): Barrier will follow the lateral movements of the PC. Untoggle tracking and the barrier will remain stationary.
Button 3: Merge: PC teleports to barriers location, merging with it. Merge becomes Separation. Separation will re-establish the barrier and the PC will be ported behind it.
Button 4: Locus: Move an established barrier to a specified location.

The Tank "pet" would deal no damage, since it's just a barrier.
Heavy movement is mitigated by the PC teleporting to the barrier's location and assuming it's threat.
The tank pet wouldn't be another character to heal since it's just a forcefield.
You never need to directly control the field.

I think Blizzard could actually accomplish a new style of tanking that has been desired by the userbase (who are a little tired of the standard tank and spank melee) but deemed generally impossible due to existing boss mechanics. Imagine a tank who can actually fight with a bow, a gun, or be a spellcaster? That's something to consider.

Concept 2: Dragoon: A mail armored "knight" that uses a bow/Xbow/rifle and can tame dragons.

The main difference between this concept and the previous concept is that the barrier is replaced with an actual pet. However due to reported "clunkiness", the abilities of the pet should be standard abilities instead of abilities in a pet bar. This brings the concept closer to something similar to Rexxar in HotS.

Same basic mechanics as previously mentioned should still apply. Damage done to the pet should transfer to the tank, and the pet only dies if the PC dies. Success or failure largely depends on how well the tank can manage his pet's movements, and control the boss.

Movement abilities;

Button 1: Summon dragon, unsummon dragon.
Button 2: Leash (toggle): Dragon will follow the basic movements of the PC.
Button 3: Mount: The PC will leap onto the back of the dragon, assuming its threat, and granting increased movement speed, yet reduced damage. Dismount: The PC will leap backwards from the dragon mount.
Button 4: Command: Move the dragon to a specified location. Pressing command again will order the dragon to a default location.

Unlike the barrier, this pet should have certain abilities, like a charge, or breathing fire. These abilities would also not be on a pet bar, but be a standard ability.

Current thread warnings:

This is starting to segue into a Tinker thread, of which we already have plenty - if it wants to remain open let's pivot to some other non-Tinker/Mech examples of how a ranged Tank might function in WoW.

So just to get the first post back in to view, as even teriz is muddying the waters himself.

So, you want the shield/pet-thing work like Sigma's barrier? Have you ever played sigma for any amount of time? his shield, or any adaptation of it doesn't work with wow, it's placement and movements are based on FPS mechanics and the idea that barriers in overwatch physically block off shots and ranged damage and lets melee damage pass through. Sigma's barrier has gone through multiple patch changes as even in OW it's hard to balance it out without being overly dominant. Secondly, the moment you let go of the deployment button, it's stuck in place and won't move and can only be recalled. It also doesn't transfer damage to Sigma, as he'd be one-shotted with ease if it did.

In an FPS based on player's skills with characters, blizz didn't want players to independently control both the character and the barrier, as it's neither practical or able to be implemented in such a way that someone can do it instinctively. Even in OW, were movement and control of the battlefield are the most important factors this concept never came farther than Sigma's shield, as doesn't solve any problems, it only creates them.

The abilities you listed are both vague, no ranges set and no real limitations on how they really work in game, this just demonstrates that this concept is too complex, as you aren't even capable to create a working set of actual abilities that make this into a functional concept to begin with. saying that the devs will figure it out is a weak and very poor excuse so don't come up with that. If you have to lock it to a target, it still makes you a melee tank, as effectively the boss is still in melee range with the shield and damaging it, the fact that it is transferred to the player doesn't change the fact that the boss still requires something to be in melee range for it to hit, and it thus being tanked on melee range.

seriously, what are you trying to accomplish with this thread? why come with a solution to a nonexisting problem that nobody asked for? there are no practical use-cases for a ranged tank in wow, no bosses, mobs or pvp elements require a tank to be at range to carry out it's function and it brings no added value in the combat system if it did, and blizz would never implement a class that would require such an extreme overhaul in either new or old content that would invalidate or undermine the existing tank roster. With the vague and near unworkable concepts that have been brought forth, these would most certainly require mechanics that only this tank can fulfill and thus invalidate existing tanks.

If it was only to add a FUNCTIONAL tank class/spec that was extremely complex, yet rewarding to play, then at least this thread would have it's merit. I personally loved playing feral in cata, when it was arguably one of the most complex dps specs this game had seen, and can be fun on it's own. But, since you only want to push a RANGED tank (under the guise of a tinker for the umpteenth time), this thread is going to go nowhere.

You made your case, tried to convince others that a ranged tank could/would work and that wow needed it, but you clearly didn't succeed, as just about every poster in this thread basically denounced the idea.