Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Edge-]

The only reason people oppose voter id laws currently is because access to IDs isn’t equal for all citizens.

Also, because there has yet to be a reason for it given the complete absence of any evidence of statistically significant voter fraud. You don't put up a barrier unless it's absolutely necessary, even if ID's were freely and easily acquired.

[Felya]

So, then using law to raise the cost and barrier to entry can be reasonably construed as trying to curtail the use of said right?

You mean the gun costing money? You are advocating for free guns, not deregulation.

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Yes they are great, just like gun ownership. I can also just recite my opinion.

Really? You think there weren’t a couple of gun supporters that presented and then can’t defend the voter ID comparison? You know that makes it easy to see it’s not your opinion you are reciting...

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The same argument against voter ID applys to all that. You are restricting the lower class from their right by requiring things that they may not be able to do due to numerous reasons.

Look at this magical event, where two people can find the same talking point, on the same day... where it didn’t exist for 3k pages... that’s like asking two random people what 5+5 is and for both to answer 72... shamwow...

[postman1782]

I mean you have to have an ID to buy alcohol and cigarettes. The idea that some people think a ‘certain type of person’ is so incapable of obtaining ID is kinda offensive honestly.

Buying alcohol and cigarettes aren't a right. Voting is.

[Elegiac]

So here's a pretty interesting article regarding one method of addressing the problem of open carrying.

Dining and dashing.

The questions that concerns me now is how we bystanders should react when people come into a store with guns. There really is no legitimate way of determining intent. Even if the people with guns are carrying a sign claiming to be activists (which they do not do), they could be lying, just setting us all up for slaughter. And since there is no way to know what is on their minds, all we have are our instincts, but as we all should know, our instincts are often racist, classist, and frequently mistaken. So, what should we do?

My proposal is as follows: we should all leave. Immediately. Leave the food on the table in the restaurant. Leave the groceries in the cart, in the aisle. Stop talking or engaging in the exchange. Just leave, unceremoniously, and fast.

But here is the key part: don’t pay. Stopping to pay in the presence of a person with a gun means risking your and your loved ones’ lives; money shouldn’t trump this. It doesn’t matter if you ate the meal. It doesn’t matter if you’ve just received food from the deli counter that can’t be resold. It doesn’t matter if you just got a haircut. Leave. If the business loses money, so be it. They can make the activists pay.

As it further goes on, it's the rational thing to do; you've no way of knowing if that is just a dude with an inferiority complex or a mass shooter. It's a clear choice between sacrificing a little convenience and potentially saving your life.

[Kellhound]

Is their a 24th Amendment for guns?

There is a 2nd Amendment.

[postman1782]

There is a 2nd Amendment.

And yet, it has that whole "well regulated" part in it that people tend to forget. Meaning that there can be restrictions on it and many have been upheld by SCOTUS.

[Elegiac]

There is a 2nd Amendment.

"Keep and bear" isn't "buy" or "trade".

[Fincayra]

The only reason people oppose voter id laws currently is because access to IDs isn’t equal for all citizens.

Who can't get an ID? You literally go to the DMV and get one. It doesn't even need to be a driver's license or any other thing like that. They'll snap your picture and you get one a few weeks later in the mail.

Just enjoy being on lists for jury duty afterwards though.

[Elegiac]

Who can't get an ID?

Quite a few people, especially when the forms of ID accepted for voting get increasingly restricted by the same people demanding ID be shown to vote.

[Edge-]

There is a 2nd Amendment.

"Keep" and "bear" have no direct relation to "purchase" or "untaxable". Note the explicit language of the 24th Amendment.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

That's not to say the hyperbolic "You want to tax guns until they're $20M!" is a position anyone takes. But the comparisons to voting are, at best, simply a really bad and incorrect attempt and at worst, an intentional attempt to muddy the water with a bad faith argument. There is no explicit ban on taxation nor requirement that access to firearms be "free" anywhere in the Second Amendment.

[Kellhound]

"Keep and bear" isn't "buy" or "trade".

If one cannot buy, one cannot keep nor can one bear.

[Edge-]

If one cannot buy, one cannot keep nor can one bear.

Please read the rest of my post before responding, there's additional context there that makes this kinda a pointless "gotcha" attempt.

Edit: Also, you can always smith your own. Gotcha.

[Kellhound]

"Keep" and "bear" have no direct relation to "purchase" or "untaxable". Note the explicit language of the 24th Amendment.



That's not to say the hyperbolic "You want to tax guns until they're $20M!" is a position anyone takes. But the comparisons to voting are, at best, simply a really bad and incorrect attempt and at worst, an intentional attempt to muddy the water with a bad faith argument. There is no explicit ban on taxation nor requirement that access to firearms be "free" anywhere in the Second Amendment.

There is no explicit ban on requiring a valid ID to vote anywhere in the 24th either.

[Edge-]

There is no explicit ban on requiring a valid ID to vote anywhere in the 24th either.

There isn't! And that's not why voter ID laws have been struck down. That's unrelated to the topic of guns though.

[Kellhound]

Please read the rest of my post before responding, there's additional context there that makes this kinda a pointless "gotcha" attempt.

Edit: Also, you can always smith your own. Gotcha.

The use of taxes to intentionally prevent people from being able to afford a firearm is no different.

[Edge-]

The use of taxes to intentionally prevent people from being able to afford a firearm is no different.

Except literally nobody is actually discussing that, Theo just brought it up as a strawman.

[postman1782]

Quite a few people, especially when the forms of ID accepted for voting get increasingly restricted by the same people demanding ID be shown to vote.

Or, the Republican led states go and close locations where you can get IDs. Like they did in Georgia for 2012 or 2016 and a judge had to reverse the order to keep them there because it was going to effect like 80% of the black population in Mississippi or Alabama, I can't remember which one.

[Fincayra]

Quite a few people, especially when the forms of ID accepted for voting get increasingly restricted by the same people demanding ID be shown to vote.

That's a pretty far out edge case, and damn, that's pretty fucked up that he'd have to go to court to get his right to vote.... I'm not saying that it's tough luck on him, the fucking government needs to be more flexible on that issue. If he clearly has documents proving he exists (and he's in the twilight years of his life, he's not going to be messing with anyone anyway) he needs to be given his ID and an apology for wasting his time.

I still think it's not that hard to get an id, given you have the correct documents, but damn, that really is a fucked up case.

It's the fact that it costs money. It needs to be free.

I'm 100% behind that, as well as a universal voter ID being free too.

[Felya]

I am glad the thread came to a natural point of agreeing Voting needs more regulation, while guns still don’t. Great job guy! You solved this problem!

Edit: We need a parade or something... This is Jerred Kushner level of success. I bet the media and politicians would be stunned by our discovery, that the way to solve mass shootings, is through regulations on voting.

I am just wondering which of our rights will be limited next, in the name of stopping gun violence? It looks like the last two shootings got the 15th amendment in the cross hairs. We already tried the first amendment, by blaming video games and music. What’s next?

Go after the third, so soldiers can protect us from shooters at home?

The 4th has a line about “unreasonable” search and seizure... which to me seems like an attack on gun owners, who happen to be holding a gun while asking to search your shit... that has to go.

The 5th mentions militia, just like the second... so that has to be brought in line to match the second... the obvious change is the part excluding militias, should exclude gun owners. Oh and double jeopardy needs to go... who cares... practice shooting, so you only need one shot.

Yeah, until we rewrite the entire constitution under the prism of a gun... these shootings will never stop...

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I'm 100% behind that, as well as a universal voter ID being free too.

See, I am the sort that believes in compulsory voting. Kind of how they have in Australia, including a voting sausage... obviously... You know, solve the issue of people voting twice... wait, with regi... that’s no po... but, it has mi... never mind all that... I have now been convinced that guns and voting are intrinsically linked... In order for my previous belief in compulsory voting, to be adjusted to my current belief of an intrinsic tie to guns... I have just 2 questions... Where do I pick up my free gun and can I get 2 sausages, because am a big dude? What if I get my free gun first, can I have 2 sausages now?

Edit: Just to be clear... I am not threatening the sausage man... Simply saying I have a gun and I want two sausages, is only an issue if you were brain washed by mass media. There is nothing different between saying, give me two sausages, I have a voting ballot and having a gun... it’s the media making you scared and obedient... guns are good... everyone loves guns... don’t be a slave to the media...

Edit: Sorry... am a wrestling fan... my mind just went to the Brian Pillman raw incident... Stone Cold breaks into his house... Brian, in obvious fear, pulls out his voting ballot... “You bastard!!! come any closer and am voting for Bush!!!”... as Stone Cold appears to launch... cliffhanger until the next episode... Did Brian vote for Bush? Was his vote cast in Florida? Was his chad hanging? Riveting stuff...

[Endus]

If one cannot buy, one cannot keep nor can one bear.

Those are three different words, with different meanings. And the 2nd Amendment only applies to the latter two.

Guns inherited from family, guns provided as part of membership in a militia, guns you paid a 1000% tax to acquire, these all provide means to acquire a weapon under a hypothetical strong restriction system. And then you can "keep and bear" those arms. The 2nd Amendment says nothing about you being entitled to acquire a weapon, that you are somehow owed ownership of a weapon. If it did, you'd be given your gun for free by the government. That's clearly not the case, because you're wrong about this.

There is no explicit ban on requiring a valid ID to vote anywhere in the 24th either.

A fee to acquire said ID, with no options that do not incur such a fee, is a poll tax. Which is explicitly what is banned by the 24th.

So, swing and a miss again. The opposition to voter ID legislation has never been the requirement to identify one's self; that's already a requirement. The opposition has been to the implementation of a poll tax with the intent of disenfranchising voters who are less likely to support your candidates.