Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Professor Expert]

Yeah, not quite. I work fulltime and play a few hours in the evening and weekends as most people do. More then enough time to run a few M+, Raid and get the weekly grind done. It's just a matter of doing it, instead of expecting it to be handed to you for free.

No it's not unless you have a group ready to go. You will burn hours waiting for a group to form... and no, you are not some kind of hero for being able to assemble a group. This idea of "handed out for free" is asinine - you play the game, you get stuff. It's simple. There is no reason to play it otherwise.

And if you truely believe that this is just a time issue, then you should read these forums more closely. I have read from so-called casuals that the Maw is too hard.

It appears you wanted to fire off a half-cocked response without reading the post you are replying to, so I will do the same.

You really don't understand why LFR gives low gear when it is literally impossible to wipe on a boss if you bring your brain along and maybe spend 2 minutes looking into the adventure guide?
I know this is already asking much for LFR players. I personally have seen people dying on the Council of Blood dance despite it showing where you need to move...

Again with more foolish hyperbole, and the pathetic attitude of a guy who has nothing going on in his life outside of WoW. There is no valid reason for LFR to dispense lower tier gear than raids which are assembled manually... just like there is no reason for better pvp gear to be restricted to "rated" pvp instead of just being freely available to those who wish to participate in ANY kind of pvp.

People that raid Heroic have gone through several Normal clears, have learned mechanics, have wiped a few times on each boss until they learned to deal with the mechanics and aquired the gear necessary and for all that effort they get the higher gear. This is just the normal progression system, you do harder content, you succeed, you get the reward. Organizing the group is just another part of this.

Riding the same instance over and over again is not progression, it is degeneracy... and if you find it fun you probably have some kind of mental disorder. The "content" is not really content if you have to plow through it 10+ times. Would you play a classic RPG like Final Fantasy if you had to kill each boss 10+ times before you are able to progress? LOL

If this effort is too much for you, then you are simply disqualified from getting the better loot. Your sub does not entitle you to get everything for free. Not in this game. There surely is some Pay2Win MMO where you can just throw money at it and you get the best loot. I suggest moving there if you can't be bothered with playing this game.

Actually, the sub does entitle me to play the fccking game I paid to play and not have arbitrary restrictions placed upon it which appeal to losers like yourself. Nobody asked you for "advice", and like all the morons who have come before you, you bring nothing of value to the conversation (or anything for that matter) so why even post?

[Raisei]

No it's not unless you have a group ready to go. You will burn hours waiting for a group to form... and no, you are not some kind of hero for being able to assemble a group. This idea of "handed out for free" is asinine - you play the game, you get stuff. It's simple. There is no reason to play it otherwise.

Soooo, join a guild, find people that like you and want to play with you instead of demanding the game to assign you random people. Though from the rest of your responses I get that you might have trouble with at least one of these points.

Again with more foolish hyperbole, and the pathetic attitude of a guy who has nothing going on in his life outside of WoW. There is no valid reason for LFR to dispense lower tier gear than raids which are assembled manually... just like there is no reason for better pvp gear to be restricted to "rated" pvp instead of just being freely available to those who wish to participate in ANY kind of pvp.

1) Cute ad hominem. Stupid one considering you quote a post where I clearly state that I am not spending all day playing WoW but hey, you tried!

2) There is a completely valid reason, you just choose to ignore it. The reason is "difficulty", which my post pointed to and which you then ignored as well, of course. LFR is tuned to a difficulty that makes it nearly impossible to fail, it's meant to give casual players a view of the raids and complete important story quests without having to invest the effort to do it on a difficulty where failure is an option.
And because it is so easy, it only gives a participation trophy of gear. The very simple logic is: "More effort = More / Better loot"

Riding the same instance over and over again is not progression, it is degeneracy... and if you find it fun you probably have some kind of mental disorder. The "content" is not really content if you have to plow through it 10+ times. Would you play a classic RPG like Final Fantasy if you had to kill each boss 10+ times before you are able to progress? LOL

Oookay, so everyone doing M+ and Raids every week has a mental disorder. Wow. Such a mix of toxicity and cluelessness is rare these days. Did you consider that maybe the game and genre is not for you? Because that is how MMOs are played. Content is repeated until you have the gear to go to the next level of difficulty and after that you go to the next expansion. This is not a single-player RPG, it is an MMORPG. Despite the sharing of the three letters it's a completely different genre. Not sure how you missed this.

Actually, the sub does entitle me to play the fccking game I paid to play and not have arbitrary restrictions placed upon it which appeal to losers like yourself.

Another insult. I guess I must have hit a nerve. Maybe you realize that this is not how the world of games works but can't accept it. Then again, from what I read of you, I assume that you are a person that will demand that your friends let you win a board game because you paid for it and when they don't, you flip the table and throw a tantrum.
To use your own example: Does buying a Final Fantasy game entitle you to beat the secret final boss while being level 1 without doing anything before? Without collecting gear and grinding levels? Strangely, I don't think so. Almost as if all games require time and effort to unlock all of their content.

Nobody asked you for "advice", and like all the morons who have come before you, you bring nothing of value to the conversation (or anything for that matter) so why even post?

If you can't take seeing a point that goes against your entitled phylosophy without going into a tantrum of insults, I suggest you do not post on forums. I know it will come as a shock, but not everyone will agree with you.

[Dilbon]

The concept of better loot for harder content just doesn't work, it turns everyone into an asshole.

[ellieg]

The concept of better loot for harder content just doesn't work, it turns everyone into an asshole.

Its worked for 16 years in the most successful mmo of all time

[kaminaris]

Its worked for 16 years in the most successful mmo of all time

Runescape wasn't really most successful mmo of all times

[ellieg]

Runescape wasn't really most successful mmo of all times

I dont understand what you are trying to communicate to me.

Overall, hardest content in wow drops the best gear. There are a few exceptions, but as content gets more difficult, ilvl it drops is higher

[Lost controller]

Runescape wasn't really most successful mmo of all times

Depends how you judge it. Popularity? There isn't really an equal. In terms of profit? No.

[AcidicSyn]

~snip~

To be fair though, many of the people in this very thread identify themselves as, for lack of a better word, "Bad", well below average. I was trying to find a system that might interest both camps - those who fall into the casual category due to time constraints or 'life', and those who are genuinely just crap at the game - and that is nothing to be ashamed of tbh - i would need training wheels to complete the SC2 campaign.
~snippity snip~

It's funny you bring up the SC2 campaign, there is literally a casual mode lol So much easier to gives casuals a good way to play in single player, it's why I've often fantasized about an offline single player version of WoW tbh, like raiding with NPCs the way FF14 sort of does it. It's nothing more than that though, I would never expect Blizzard to actually put in resources to do that in any official capacity.

The Wpvp thing is probably the hardest to balance. Take my suggested bonus for increased point generation for capture objectives. "harder-core" pvpers might think thats a messed up idea and feel forced to get that bonus, especially if there are useful objectives. So there'd have to be some good iterations done for the rewards there. It might just be a case of having "Warmode is an opt in, so if you opt in you're placing yourself in the crosshairs of pros and take that risk". Though I'd probably want the rewards for warmode modified heavily in this scenario. Maybe you just take reduced damage from players in general (lazy solution imo).

What about reduced damage taken in random BGs/WPvP?

See above. It's a bit of a slippery slope (assuming I am using that term correctly). PvPers cannot feel like they are worthless now, or less powerful against other players; that is the entire purpose of their playstyle. So it's a tough one to figure out and Ark and I can only spitball, we're definitely not going to be the ones who come up with that goldilocks solution lol

For sure not in random bgs though. That would just be a terrible bandaid for the perceived problem. A much better solution to this, imo, is better matchmaking. Folks have been complaining about the randomness of random bgs (lol) for awhile. Just not for the same reasons you do (The largest complaint I've heard is how frequently teams of randoms are matched with premades). Though even that's been at least improved since I've played (and by improved I just mean I've seena blue post or two acknowledging that it happened lol). Perhaps the folks who are actually subbed can chime in on the state of matchmaking in SL as they're much better qualified than I am to comment on it.

Either way though, if the games matchmaking took the relative IL of the players on each team into consideration, that would be a better solution to your complaint than the, imo, more lazy route of just giving these solo/casual/[varWord] players some kind of blanket buff. I'd fall into that category and that would definitely not be fun or feel rewarding for me, crutch-gameplay is not fun for the same reason I don't use cheats in single player games.

Thing to keep in mind though is the obvious trade off- queue times. Let's say Blizzard read this post, that's right. Grats! The entire Blizzard board is here right now. They read my post and were all just inebriated enough to collectively decide that this was the best idea they'd ever seen, let's do it right now!

So now matchmaking will take the relative IL of a team and take the time to match them against a similar IL team. Your queue times are now 6x longer- is that a trade off you're willing to make? What about Jenna the game mom with an hour to play; now she can't play random BGs at all because the queues are so long, so shes pissed at you for making this happen.

Quick, let's write a bandaid patch! It's a toggle now, so players can opt into this system or choose the new matchmaking algorithm.

So now the players running random bgs are split into even more separate pools. What was the cost of all of this iteration? How many players did it help? The blizzard board is sobering up now and realizing that listening to some dude named Acidic on mmo champ was a terrible idea.

[Edward Wu]

The concept of better loot for harder content just doesn't work, it turns everyone into an asshole.

This concept works in literally every game ever and people like you need to deal with the fact that multi-player games just have a set level of toxicity to them due to human nature. If you can't cope with that then maybe relaxing singleplayer games are more your speed.

[Depakote]

The concept of better loot for harder content just doesn't work, it turns everyone into an asshole.

I totally agree with this.

- - - Updated - - -

This concept works in literally every game ever and people like you need to deal with the fact that multi-player games just have a set level of toxicity to them due to human nature. If you can't cope with that then maybe relaxing singleplayer games are more your speed.

sounds like something an asshole would say honestly.

[Dazlartist]

Players realize it's just easier to engage in trivial content and wait for the gear to come to them.

that’s me! I don’t even leave Revendreth anymore as with my limited play time I can enjoy a couple of hours doing my mirror network and anima conductor dailies with some world quests and farming and buy gear upgrades!

[Garybear]

The players that you are talking about, who you think the entire game needs to be catered to and centered around, is less than 10% of players (and that is generous). So, let's not pretend that the most extreme players are some kind of majority who the game cannot live without. They are a fringe. Again, this is a *fact* not an opinion. Why do you think zero games, ZERO try to attract the wow hardcore crowd? If there are so many of them and they are so important, where is the market that is trying to grab them? It doesn't exist, and the only attempt to grab them, Wildstar, failed miserably because it couldn't attract enough players.

It is objectively true that pushing players into content that is harder than they enjoy is bad design. It leads to all kinds of problems, the least of which is toxicity. Blizzard developers have said this publicly, and the example they use is Cataclysm dungeons being too hard. It made players stop doing dungeons, rather than rise to the occasion. You are far, far too stuck in your own gaming mindset and perspective. You need to take a step back and realize that the vast majority of players do not play games to feel achievement from difficult content. They simply don't. That is a cold, hard fact.

This is why players make bad designers. You can't see the forest for the trees. You think every other player is like you, just some are bad and some are good. That isn't how it works. You are what is called an "achiever" style player by game designers, while is about 10% of gamers. You are a far-flung tiny minority, and if you takea. step back and try to look at things outside of the "achiever" perspective, you will see the problems I am talking about.

Could not agree more!

[Glorious Leader]

This concept works in literally every game ever and people like you need to deal with the fact that multi-player games just have a set level of toxicity to them due to human nature. If you can't cope with that then maybe relaxing singleplayer games are more your speed.

wait so like solitaire rewards loot now?

[Echocho]

The concept of "people get the same gear but slower" is something that won't go well very long until Players realize it's just easier to engage in trivial content and wait for the gear to come to them.

But then that's their choice right? If they don't really enjoy the content and is only doing it for the rewards isn't it better to have an easier but slower path to that gear so that they can maybe focus on doing content that they actually enjoy instead?

[Kralljin]

But then that's their choice right? If they don't really enjoy the content and is only doing it for the rewards isn't it better to have an easier but slower path to that gear so that they can maybe focus on doing content that they actually enjoy instead?

The point is that hollows out the content that rewards that gear right off the bat because people will lose interest in it when they get the rewards anyway.

[javierdsv]

Casuals don't need great gear. That's it. They just don't.

But if let's say some casual wants to do some PVP, then the game must balance that shit out. Because they also have the right to have fun without being utterly destroyed.

Gear should NOT give any kind of bonus on casual PvP (including world pvp). Only rated.

And casuals should have a way to get the cosmetics of high end gear somehow... In a much slower pace, and without the stats of such gear.

[Edward Wu]

wait so like solitaire rewards loot now?

You are very intelligent.

[Tadkins]

See above. It's a bit of a slippery slope (assuming I am using that term correctly). PvPers cannot feel like they are worthless now, or less powerful against other players; that is the entire purpose of their playstyle. So it's a tough one to figure out and Ark and I can only spitball, we're definitely not going to be the ones who come up with that goldilocks solution lol

For sure not in random bgs though. That would just be a terrible bandaid for the perceived problem. A much better solution to this, imo, is better matchmaking. Folks have been complaining about the randomness of random bgs (lol) for awhile. Just not for the same reasons you do (The largest complaint I've heard is how frequently teams of randoms are matched with premades). Though even that's been at least improved since I've played (and by improved I just mean I've seena blue post or two acknowledging that it happened lol). Perhaps the folks who are actually subbed can chime in on the state of matchmaking in SL as they're much better qualified than I am to comment on it.

Either way though, if the games matchmaking took the relative IL of the players on each team into consideration, that would be a better solution to your complaint than the, imo, more lazy route of just giving these solo/casual/[varWord] players some kind of blanket buff. I'd fall into that category and that would definitely not be fun or feel rewarding for me, crutch-gameplay is not fun for the same reason I don't use cheats in single player games.

Thing to keep in mind though is the obvious trade off- queue times. Let's say Blizzard read this post, that's right. Grats! The entire Blizzard board is here right now. They read my post and were all just inebriated enough to collectively decide that this was the best idea they'd ever seen, let's do it right now!

So now matchmaking will take the relative IL of a team and take the time to match them against a similar IL team. Your queue times are now 6x longer- is that a trade off you're willing to make? What about Jenna the game mom with an hour to play; now she can't play random BGs at all because the queues are so long, so shes pissed at you for making this happen.

Quick, let's write a bandaid patch! It's a toggle now, so players can opt into this system or choose the new matchmaking algorithm.

So now the players running random bgs are split into even more separate pools. What was the cost of all of this iteration? How many players did it help? The blizzard board is sobering up now and realizing that listening to some dude named Acidic on mmo champ was a terrible idea.

I saw you guys suggesting all sorts of pretty fluff on gear for us "casuals" but I knew the moment I suggested some actual, tangible benefit that it would be rejected, lol.

But yes, if we can't have better gear (would just be the simplest solution though), then three other solutions would work fine.
-Ilvl brackets in random battlegrounds. Yes I would wait an extra 5-10 minutes for a game if it meant I knew it would be a good one and not a total slaughterfest by a bored group of organized mythic raiders in discord.
-Bring back resilience, so that one needs to be a hardcore skilled PvPer to totally dominate other PvPers, and not just happen to be a mythic raider or key runner. My main is a mage and I harbor no illusions; if I encountered Xaryu in the open world or in a BG he would just annihilate me. But it's discouraging when you're trying your best and some random mythic raider is overpowering you simply by virtue of gear alone.
-Templates, it was a good system that just needed work, not to be scrapped altogether.

[Something Wicked]

Will you though? Will you be waiting over there?

Yes, yes I will be. And have. And am continuing to do so.

Show me how good you are.

- - - Updated - - -

You keep making these weird statements that directly contradict themselves - multiple times you have insinuated that the only difference between a casual player and a mythic raider is that they "have some addons, some macros, and are getting carried". So i have one VERY simple question for you - Who is doing the carrying, and how?

Very easy: All of you. It's why you're (apparently) scared to death of solo content.

[arkanon]

Very easy: All of you. It's why you're (apparently) scared to death of solo content.

So everyone is carrying everyone else, who is getting carried? You seem pretty confused....