Is wow's problem that it lacks proper feedback?

[Lost controller]

I only play at a heroic level, but Castle Nathria is FULL of personal responsibility and role specific stuff that gets everyone killed if not properly handled - I'd argue that it's the most of any raid actually.
As for role specific stuff, only a few things immediately come to mind like the heavy dot in artificer, healing kaelthas, the dot that becomes a bigger dot on stone legion, and I think something healers cleanse for inerva.
Tanks will always deal with this because of positioning and repositioning.
But CN has plenty of role-agnostic things to do that are randomly passed around, from echolocation to dropping portrals to running wicked blades to grouping up for chains to moving impale and on and on and on.

I would move it into intro content. Get people used to it at the dungeon level rather then making it a new thing they see in raids.

[Better]

This was only possible on 10M Heroic which is part of the reason Blizzard did away with this raid size in the first place. They wanted to design Mythic raid mechanics that could reasonably be handled by classes you'd probably have in 20M group (ie, MCs on Blast Furnace). These kinds of mechanics turned out to be wildly unpopular, however, so I think Blizzard has decided not to add too many of them since.

You could just send more hunters, the reason you send hunters in the first place was because 1 they were good at it, and 2 they bypassed the CD on being sent by disengaging from the pipe.

[Erous]

No, I genuinely think they think they're making the right decisions. And, I think they're putting a corporate spin on it. The decision to make world quests even more horrible than they already are was testament to that.

[Something Wicked]

It's quite the opposite. It's that Blizzard straight-up ignores almost all feedback it gets (especially during beta tests, bewilderingly), not that they don't get plenty of constructive feedback. They just don't give a fuck unless the PR team thinks there might be a subscription issue due to something.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I would move it into intro content. Get people used to it at the dungeon level rather then making it a new thing they see in raids.

Consider that a fresh player will be doing 1-10 exile's reach, which has mechanics, 10-50 is BFA which has mechanics, then 50-60 which...you know.

[Ehrenpanzer]

I feel a lot of the anguish I see on these forms and in game is that wow never really lets most roles know if they are actually doing their jobs properly. A weak healer can be carried by a good tank and vice versa. A strong dps can carry weaker ones.

Would the game benefit more from having bosses that had a mechanic that individual players had to pass without outside interference to help make it clear when someone is doing something wrong?

They tried that concept with proving grounds, and then all the crayon eating window lickers of the game lost their shit because they couldnt go get carried by decent players.

[Razion]

You're correct that most players aren't necessarily elite masters of the game. Optimization of gear, etc. increases your capacity to do your role but it won't make you a better player. Perfectly geared and well-optimized players can still stand in stuff.

While immunity exploits have been around forever, it's only been a more recent development that players I think have been taking advantage of taking as much damage as possible before dying - and largely I think the onset of M+ has had a lot to do with this. We only really saw this start to happen Cata forward, and I'd argue that the meta where one-shot mechanics spread around an entire raid was more a thing in the past and isn't as prevalent nowadays because of how it made people feel then and how it was removed going forward. We still see one-shot mechanics for sure, but it isn't something that as many players have to deal with on a more impactful level at least in regards to how it could wipe an entire raid before, for example, which is what I'm mostly referring to. The situation today is quite a bit different. I think the meta of personal responsibility has edged more towards personal accountability and less towards group punishment in recent expansions because of that feedback from those expansions, and I don't think it'd be received well if it regressed back to that, I think that the same complaints just come around again and people get reminded of those old tiers that had that kind of problem and people would ask, "why are we here again, didn't they learn?"

- - - Updated - - -

What if the mechanic wasn't fatal but very clear to everyone they failed it?

Perhaps for dps a pacifying effect canceling out all damage for a set amount of time? I admit I am unsure what you could do for healers or tanks that wouldnt overly endanger the group.

Visual flourishes like, "stinky," because, you stood in the poo, is one way to do this type of thing. You have residual effects on you that make sense for the kind of mechanic you were supposed to deal with, and because you didn't evade it correctly, or didn't interrupt, or whatever, the effect goes out and this kind of flourish then is more obvious. And because people don't want to get marked and visually called out to the rest of the group like this, they'll want to organically look out for abilities that will do this kind of thing and try to counter and avoid that because it can feel bad to be called out like this.

Without visual indicators to occur and persist after an effect, it can be hard for people to pinpoint when in a fight something started - and if it refreshes, like oh man the sinky effect got refreshed, shouldn't have stood in the sludge, then hey - that kind of thing becomes more obvious to people. People can't just be hit with flat damage, have their character just stand there with less health with nothing visual on the environment, or boss, or adds, or themselves, to leave any kind of indication what happened and what they can improve on next time. People's reaction times are getting faster in WoW, people are getting better at the game so sure this is a hard problem in terms of making things obvious while still making it resonate with the skill level. Understandable. But they won't learn if they can't understand what happened and then the only option is death resetting until the answer is known, and that's just a waste of time. If the only answer is to go into a death log or a damage recount log to figure it out what hurt so bad, the problem wasn't being conveyed properly visually or even audibly. You should know what happened. You should know what to do. Reacting can be hard, doing it mechanically can be difficult, but there needs to be conveyance.

[Lost controller]

Consider that a fresh player will be doing 1-10 exile's reach, which has mechanics, 10-50 is BFA which has mechanics, then 50-60 which...you know.

Does it really have mechanics though?

I always thought it would be better to have check point quests every ten level that teach a player their proper rotation and use of cds rather then content they can clear in grays auto attacking.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Does it really have mechanics though?

I always thought it would be better to have check point quests every ten level that teach a player their proper rotation and use of cds rather then content they can clear in grays auto attacking.

Open the dungeon journal. Yes there're mechanics and a basic talk through for each role.
Earlier you were saying dungeons, not raids. Now you're saying checkpoint quests. Are you going to keep pushing the goalposts back and have you really thought through what it is you're asking for?

[Lost controller]

Open the dungeon journal. Yes there're mechanics and a basic talk through for each role.
Earlier you were saying dungeons, not raids. Now you're saying checkpoint quests. Are you going to keep pushing the goalposts back and have you really thought through what it is you're asking for?

I mean I would want both. I don't see the point of a leveling system that doesn't teach the game. I don't see the point of easy content that doesn't teach the game. It feels weird to me that learning isnt really expected until arguably heroic raiding.

[schwarzkopf]

Impossible is not the correct word,

No - it was the correct word, chosen on purpose.

[Echocho]

No - Wow's problem is that they started listening to player feedback rather than focus on building a better game.

For example - the community feedback is that we need LESS loot and MORE loot.

The community feedback is that we need LESS hand holding and MORE hand holding.


The community feedback IS the problem.

Dungeons, raids and bosses need to be less complex and more difficult.

Exactly. Build the game you want to make, not the game other people want you to make.

[Very Tired]

The most amusing part of this thread so far is how obvious it is that certain people only read the thread title, and did not bother reading the actual post before responding.

Yeah... Jesus it's like the majority of the replies. The OP isn't talking about communicating with the devs, people.

Kinda feel like I should make threads with titles like this from now on so I can dismiss people who obviously don't read my OP.

[Stormwolf64]

You say that it lacks "proper" feedback. Thats not the problem. There is a lot of proper feedback, but we're simple humans. Smart and stupid in abundance. What we do not like or respect is people talking down on the things we like. So proper and constructive critique against something you like might just look like irrational hate in your eyes. Instead of getting blodshot eyes as these posts, maybe sit back and ponder on what they're complaining about and not focusing too much on how they word it. Maybe you'll see that sometimes they've got a point.

[Niwes]

as some ppl mentioned, this CAN be done. but to achieve this, you had to do something like proving grounds for every spec, perfectly adapted to that spec. since proving grounds was not a good measurement, cause for some specs it was trivial, while for others hardcore. if Blizz WOULD do this (which they will not, because its a horrible lot of effort) and ppl can really surely say „this is really a good outlaw rogue“ or this is really a good mistweaver monk“ it will became a useful measurement, after time. but since ppl are heavily focused on simple numbers, you have to hide itemlevel and give silver or gold a number.

[MidnyteTV]

No - Wow's problem is that they started listening to player feedback rather than focus on building a better game.

For example - the community feedback is that we need LESS loot and MORE loot.

The community feedback is that we need LESS hand holding and MORE hand holding.


The community feedback IS the problem.

Dungeons, raids and bosses need to be less complex and more difficult.

10/10 post.

WoW players provide the absolute worst player feedback ever. The problem with WoW, is that it tends to be great for players the first time/expansion they play in. After that, it becomes more of a contest of how to get better at the game.

[Samuraijake]

they keep giving beta/alpha access to streamers and friends in their streamer circle that dont actually fill out reports... but simply joke about them or push the responsibility on other people. I saw a stream where crap like that was openly said.

[Snufflupagus]

No - Wow's problem is that they started listening to player feedback rather than focus on building a better game.

For example - the community feedback is that we need LESS loot and MORE loot.

The community feedback is that we need LESS hand holding and MORE hand holding.


The community feedback IS the problem.

Dungeons, raids and bosses need to be less complex and more difficult.

Literally didn’t read the opening post. Based on how much effort you put into engaging in thoughtful discussion, could it just be the COMMUNITY that’s the problem?

[schwarzkopf]

Literally didn’t read the opening post.

Then you should.

As for me - I read the title (and responded)
Then I read the different OP (and responded)

Two responses in one.

[Nalam the Venom]

Does it really have mechanics though?

I always thought it would be better to have check point quests every ten level that teach a player their proper rotation and use of cds rather then content they can clear in grays auto attacking.

If a game locked me out of progression due to "Not doing it properly" i would just move on to a different game.

I usally hate games that have very long tutorial sections.