Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[arkanon]

And sometimes you need to go off on your own, especially if you need to go for an achievement. Not in a single game of Silvershard have I been able to convince anyone to help with the carts achievement. Being able to survive on your own is something valued by some. Maybe not to you, but it is why I primarily played Arcane on my mage in PvP, it gave me the mobility and defenses needed to 1v1. Finding and sticking to the group the entire game like a baby to its mother is not always a fun way to play, especially when you die and can't always get back. You're in Warsong Gulch and a flag carrier is running home totally unopposed with your entire allied team fighting in the middle; do you keep fighting in the middle yourself because your entire team is there, or do you take it upon yourself to at least try to slow the flag carrier a bit and actually try to win?

You say that those scenarios I describe don't happen; c'mon now, they can and have happened quite a bit. You're seriously going to claim that bored 226 groups aren't going to queue for randoms with their buddies just to flex a bit to us "casual randoms"? Explain why I was in games during BfA where my entire team was 300kish HP, while the entire opposing team was 400-500k or higher in some cases.

Again, your entire argument is based on a fantasy you have created in your own head - i play random bgs EVERY DAY, usually on some of my alts who range in ilvl from 165-185, and i have a blast. I have experience in SL in random bgs - 100% more than you do, and you are saying "you are wrong, i am right, even though i dont even own SL". And yes, i absolutely am telling you that guilds of 226 ilvl characters are not hitting queue and steamrolling random pug groups - there is one REALLY strong reason why, and I hope you have enough experience in wow to know what that reason is.

But lets say your warped reality is true - that might be MAYBE one group you encounter in an entire day - you have presented it as the "norm" - and it is the polar opposite to that. Out of 50 random bgs a day on my random shitty alts who havnt even finished their campaign, and are in leveling gear, I do absolutely fine - i carry the flag, i cap nodes, i kill healers, i heal, and i play as a team with my team.

You are having to present more and more obscure scenarios to try and prove your point - to the extent you are now claiming you deserve much stronger gear so you can run off by yourself, to the detriment of every other member of your team, to try and solo achievements.

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Have you not paid attention to complaints about arenas in SL? The exact numbers may be off some, but the general idea is, you can be playing at 1400 MMR in 2s and still be facing 226 ilvl, 2400+ experience and up boosters playing with lower MMR players who are paying for a carry. And as you might expect the matchup isn't very fair. I know this but I don't even play SL.

Lucky i havnt mentioned arenas, as the person in question has entirely ruled them out as a game-mode they would play. Is smurfing an issue? yeah, its sadly an issue in every single ratings based game i can think of where a player can tank their rating. Does it impact @Tadkins at all? nope, not even a tiny bit in any possible way.

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I've heard much of the same, that the arena world is chock full of that sort of carrying and sales. I can't imagine how a genuine arena player, the kind that did well and spent seasons genuinely pushing for ratings and titles, is having fun in this game right now.

Interesting that when others suggest any form of rated pvp you immediately hand-wave their argument away as irrelevant because you are incapable of playing rated pvp, and yet when it is used to support your argument, you immediately jump in and support that reply.

[Tadkins]

Again, your entire argument is based on a fantasy you have created in your own head - i play random bgs EVERY DAY, usually on some of my alts who range in ilvl from 165-185, and i have a blast. I have experience in SL in random bgs - 100% more than you do, and you are saying "you are wrong, i am right, even though i dont even own SL". And yes, i absolutely am telling you that guilds of 226 ilvl characters are not hitting queue and steamrolling random pug groups - there is one REALLY strong reason why, and I hope you have enough experience in wow to know what that reason is.

But lets say your warped reality is true - that might be MAYBE one group you encounter in an entire day - you have presented it as the "norm" - and it is the polar opposite to that. Out of 50 random bgs a day on my random shitty alts who havnt even finished their campaign, and are in leveling gear, I do absolutely fine - i carry the flag, i cap nodes, i kill healers, i heal, and i play as a team with my team.

You are having to present more and more obscure scenarios to try and prove your point - to the extent you are now claiming you deserve much stronger gear so you can run off by yourself, to the detriment of every other member of your team, to try and solo achievements.

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Lucky i havnt mentioned arenas, as the person in question has entirely ruled them out as a game-mode they would play. Is smurfing an issue? yeah, its sadly an issue in every single ratings based game i can think of where a player can tank their rating. Does it impact @Tadkins at all? nope, not even a tiny bit in any possible way.

You didn't answer my question. In those scenarios where your team isn't cooperating and you have to try to go it alone, do you at least make an attempt on the objective, or do you just keep fighting in the middle because that is where your team is? If my entire team leaves me to defend the mines alone, should I follow them or should I be the sole mine defender? Plenty of legitimate situations where you might find yourself 1v1.

And yes, I'm sure there are 226 folks queueing for random battlegrounds. Why wouldn't they? They're at the top of their game and they can enjoy stomping on people a bit. It happened a lot in previous expansions and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't continue today.

[arkanon]

You didn't answer my question. In those scenarios where your team isn't cooperating and you have to try to go it alone, do you at least make an attempt on the objective, or do you just keep fighting in the middle because that is where your team is? If my entire team leaves me to defend the mines alone, should I follow them or should I be the sole mine defender? Plenty of legitimate situations where you might find yourself 1v1.

And yes, I'm sure there are 226 folks queueing for random battlegrounds. Why wouldn't they? They're at the top of their game and they can enjoy stomping on people a bit. It happened a lot in previous expansions and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't continue today.

And you didn't answer ANY of my questions for over 50 pages. That's entirely up to you - your scenario is that you are ilvl 200, so hell yeah go after the fc - there is a high probability that he is anywhere from 155-185 ilvl, so why wouldn't you?

Now answer this - why in every single scenario you present are you the lowest ilvl in the bag, and only the other team has 226 ilvl people!?!?!?

[Tadkins]

Now answer this - why in every single scenario you present are you the lowest ilvl in the bag, and only the other team has 226 ilvl people!?!?!?

Because it could happen, and I don't get a choice in the matter. There are no ilvl brackets or templates to ensure otherwise.

Could the opposite happen, where my entire team is 226 and will carry me to a 5 minute victory? Sure. It's all random chance. It's still not fun for me even if I'm the one being carried. I just want a chance to fight. I just want to be seen as an equal contributor and a fellow fighter.

[arkanon]

Because it could happen, and I don't get a choice in the matter. There are no ilvl brackets or templates to ensure otherwise.

Could the opposite happen, where my entire team is 226 and will carry me to a 5 minute victory? Sure. It's all random chance. It's still not fun for me even if I'm the one being carried. I just want a chance to fight. I just want to be seen as an equal contributor and a fellow fighter.

And you will be, because no one cares who you are or what you are doing. It's a random bg, I do hundreds per week. Every now and again you get some loudmouth trolling everyone, but thankfully, Blizzard have thought of that as well! They have an ignore function - just two clicks of the mouse, and boom! Troll be gone. Worried about general shit talking in chat? Great news again! Uncle Blizzard has you covered once more, as you can literally disable chat!

Still not good enough? Leave the bg, go for a walk or make something to eat or do some WQ while the very short timer counts down, then go again. The more you talk about this, the more it sounds like a fear of social interaction rather than a gear issue.

The "issues" you are talking about are typical of ALL random group content. When I invite pugs to heroic alt clears or whatever, sometimes we hut the jackasspot and get some meter linking, loudmouth, shit talking tosser, and unfortunately, it comes with the territory. When I'm in charge I simply remove, but as I often pug content solo, sometimes i only have two choices - put up with it and just ignore that player, or leave. Both work fine.

[Tadkins]

And you will be, because no one cares who you are or what you are doing. It's a random bg, I do hundreds per week. Every now and again you get some loudmouth trolling everyone, but thankfully, Blizzard have thought of that as well! They have an ignore function - just two clicks of the mouse, and boom! Troll be gone. Worried about general shit talking in chat? Great news again! Uncle Blizzard has you covered once more, as you can literally disable chat!

I care what I'm doing, and I am just afraid that as a 200 player I'm going to be spending most of it at the graveyard, with no hope of it ever getting better. I can definitely ignore people, and I have disabled chat at times when I am feeling depressed and really didn't want to talk to anyone, but at the end of the day where is the fun to be had if most of the game is viewed through a monochrome lens with eerie angel music in the background? I would imagine more folks who aren't scared to get into organized content would be higher than 200 than those who are equal to or less than that.

- - - Updated - - -

Still not good enough? Leave the bg, go for a walk or make something to eat or do some WQ while the very short timer counts down, then go again. The more you talk about this, the more it sounds like a fear of social interaction rather than a gear issue.

It is both, where the only worthwhile gear comes from the places where social interaction is required, but I am scared of people and messing up in front of them, and I know how toxic and unforgiving of failure the general playerbase is these days. So what should I do?

[arkanon]

So what should I do?

Actually purchase and play the expansion, and quickly realise that most of your fears are completely unfounded, and the ones that are at least somewhat plausible are grossly exaggerated. Stop worrying about EXTREME outliers, play the game, and come to the conclusion it's the same or better than it ever has been for someone in your position.

[Tadkins]

Actually purchase and play the expansion, and quickly realise that most of your fears are completely unfounded, and the ones that are at least somewhat plausible are grossly exaggerated. Stop worrying about EXTREME outliers, play the game, and come to the conclusion it's the same or better than it ever has been for someone in your position.

So the toxicity and non-patience for failure I experienced in BfA (and I did play that all expansion) does not exist in Shadowlands? Because that is what I'm most afraid of.

[arkanon]

So the toxicity and non-patience for failure I experienced in BfA (and I did play that all expansion) does not exist in Shadowlands? Because that is what I'm most afraid of.

I never said it doesnt exist - i personally experience very little of it, but i never said it doesn't exist. I do think you are grossly exaggerating it, but it does exist in ANY environment with any interaction between people. What i have given you are some examples of tools you have at your disposal, specifically designed to eliminate or at least mitigate said toxicity. There is also some much bigger issues going on here that i flatout refuse to engage in, however i will offer you some perspective.

If i am doing a random bg and im healing, and its some terribly geared alt and im getting out-healed by the prot warrior, and said warrior starts spamming in chat "omfg im beating the druid in heals and hes a HEALER! ZOMG!!!!one!!!! what an idiot omg thats so bad why are you even here?" i just laugh and keep playing - water off a ducks back - couldnt bother me any less.

Now, if i was in a competitive environment, where other players ratings and hard work was on the line, or in a raid environment where i am, intentionally or otherwise, reducing their chance of obtaining any loot by jeopardizing our ability to kill the boss, that's a different scenario. You still get honor for a lost BG, you dont get loot if you dont kill the boss - the raid boss might be 3 hours of attempts, a bg lasts 5-15 minutes. And by far most importantly, random bgs are queued automatically, so the closest environment i can think of is LFR, and even then its more impactful to have one player dragging the chain, especially if said player is a healer, or even worse, a tank.

And this is the crux of the issue for me - you grossly exaggerate the impact one under/over-geared player has in a bg with 20-80 players. You grossly exaggerate the likelihood of an imba group of 226 players coming up against a random group in the finder. You present only absolute worst case scenarios, and ignore the entire bell curve - in your mind, its just groups of 226 players stomping through randoms in bgs, with you constantly stuck in 1v1 battles with EFC while your team of 150 ilvl teammates fight against the rest of the 226 geared mythic raiders and Glad pvpers.

The majority of groups i have been in have been pretty evenly matched - and when we do get roflstomped, or deliver a roflstomping, it is almost always because we played well as a team and focused on the actual goal of the bg.

Actually, special note, just this morning i did a random bg and we actually did encounter a "semi-premade" - which from memory was 4 guildies in moderate gear (at a guess i would say around 215 MAX). It went pretty poorly at first, and looked like a GG, but thankfuly our team was free of trolls and idiots, and everyone played together and we clawed it back and won - this was a really good experience, and even with me at 166 ilvl, and the other healer at 180, there was only a couple of negative comments, and since no one engaged with those players, they immediately gave up and just started playing. Even with terrible gear, we outplayed them and won. Overall, the two teams ilvls would be pretty evenly matched i suspect, and that typically is the case, purely based on the nature of the game.

[Tadkins]

I never said it doesnt exist - i personally experience very little of it, but i never said it doesn't exist. I do think you are grossly exaggerating it, but it does exist in ANY environment with any interaction between people. What i have given you are some examples of tools you have at your disposal, specifically designed to eliminate or at least mitigate said toxicity. There is also some much bigger issues going on here that i flatout refuse to engage in, however i will offer you some perspective.

If i am doing a random bg and im healing, and its some terribly geared alt and im getting out-healed by the prot warrior, and said warrior starts spamming in chat "omfg im beating the druid in heals and hes a HEALER! ZOMG!!!!one!!!! what an idiot omg thats so bad why are you even here?" i just laugh and keep playing - water off a ducks back - couldnt bother me any less.

Now, if i was in a competitive environment, where other players ratings and hard work was on the line, or in a raid environment where i am, intentionally or otherwise, reducing their chance of obtaining any loot by jeopardizing our ability to kill the boss, that's a different scenario. You still get honor for a lost BG, you dont get loot if you dont kill the boss - the raid boss might be 3 hours of attempts, a bg lasts 5-15 minutes. And by far most importantly, random bgs are queued automatically, so the closest environment i can think of is LFR, and even then its more impactful to have one player dragging the chain, especially if said player is a healer, or even worse, a tank.

And this is the crux of the issue for me - you grossly exaggerate the impact one under/over-geared player has in a bg with 20-80 players. You grossly exaggerate the likelihood of an imba group of 226 players coming up against a random group in the finder. You present only absolute worst case scenarios, and ignore the entire bell curve - in your mind, its just groups of 226 players stomping through randoms in bgs, with you constantly stuck in 1v1 battles with EFC while your team of 150 ilvl teammates fight against the rest of the 226 geared mythic raiders and Glad pvpers.

The majority of groups i have been in have been pretty evenly matched - and when we do get roflstomped, or deliver a roflstomping, it is almost always because we played well as a team and focused on the actual goal of the bg.

Actually, special note, just this morning i did a random bg and we actually did encounter a "semi-premade" - which from memory was 4 guildies in moderate gear (at a guess i would say around 215 MAX). It went pretty poorly at first, and looked like a GG, but thankfuly our team was free of trolls and idiots, and everyone played together and we clawed it back and won - this was a really good experience, and even with me at 166 ilvl, and the other healer at 180, there was only a couple of negative comments, and since no one engaged with those players, they immediately gave up and just started playing. Even with terrible gear, we outplayed them and won. Overall, the two teams ilvls would be pretty evenly matched i suspect, and that typically is the case, purely based on the nature of the game.

Yes I do have issues and I am only trying to find fun wherever I can in whatever game I'm playing, even if everything feels like a struggle, even if I feel like nothing in whatever world I inhabit, even if I almost always feel like a depressed, hopeless mess.

Even if everything you said was true though, what would there to be to look forward to in the end? I get my 200 honor set, and then what? I'm still inferior to all the folks in there doing organized content, there's no hope of ever getting higher, and I'd really be getting nothing out of random battlegrounds. I found most of the fun there in the past knowing I had a goal to work toward, and it was never really going to be finished, but there was always that little bit of progress each time.

So what would be there after that? I just get the sense that no one really wants me there, not even the devs themselves.

[arkanon]

Yes I do have issues and I am only trying to find fun wherever I can in whatever game I'm playing, even if everything feels like a struggle, even if I feel like nothing in whatever world I inhabit, even if I almost always feel like a depressed, hopeless mess.

Even if everything you said was true though, what would there to be to look forward to in the end? I get my 200 honor set, and then what? I'm still inferior to all the folks in there doing organized content, there's no hope of ever getting higher, and I'd really be getting nothing out of random battlegrounds. I found most of the fun there in the past knowing I had a goal to work toward, and it was never really going to be finished, but there was always that little bit of progress each time.

So what would be there after that? I just get the sense that no one really wants me there, not even the devs themselves.

Let me ask you something - how do you think it feels when someone obtains 226 ilvl gear? There is no way for them to advance there character, no way to obtain better gear at all. Im not saying its the "same" cause, but it absolutely is the same "problem". Everyone in every aspect of life, be it work, love, sport, games - we all face various ceilings in our life, including in social endeavors. There are some ppl at 226 parsing mid pack, and some consistently dropping 99s. The ppl @ 226 who are middle of the pack would no doubt like to get to 236 to get an edge over the 99 parsers, but that just isnt how this works.

These people are not limited by skill, but they are still "held back" by the limitations of the game - even at bis / 226, there are levels, if you look for them. WoW is easily one of (note - ONE OF) the more accessible games out there in the multiplayer genre. Stuff like CS:GO, Warzone, Battlefield, Every moba ever, and even "casual friendly" games like Among Us, and even something like Minecraft - toxicity and pricks exist - so even in those games, arguably designed specifically for causal, relaxed play are rife with negativity and competitiveness - unless you play "solo" or with a group of friends.

I will say something in your defense - I thought i would love Warzone, and to some extent i do, but without beating my own chest I am not too bad at all, and that means i keep getting matched with some highly competitive people. Although that community is MOSTLY pretty relaxed, there is a portion that are just horribly negative and the hyper competitive nature breeds a very sweaty and angry playerbase (at higher ratings) so I generally only play with friends, because i just cant be fucked dealing with it. One thing i have NOT done is ask them to adjust the game to suit my needs.

My "alt" raid team is a shambles - its honestly a disgrace - its 50% male/female, we have known each other since TBC, and our skill levels range from "why the fuck are you not doing mythic?" to "listen mate, LFR is THAT way" - but overall it balances out to "heroic feels fine". We had a 65yo bloke in there (RIP) couple of middle age ladies with adult kids, a teenager who spoke ZERO English (we had to communicate through icons - we had a system - if he needed to interupt/cc/kill something, we would mark him triangle, and mark the mob triangle - this worked for a decade), one who was so socially awkward he didnt speak on vent/disc for 7 years (now we cant shut the fucker up), and one who is pretty sure he belongs in mythic (in reality he would struggle in normal). These guilds exist - I used to run one, I am still in 2 of them, and I know of many others. Im not saying "stop being lame and join a guild", im just saying you seem hyper-focused on the negative aspects of the game and its community, and have made your mind up completely.

I genuinely believe there is absolutely no solution Blizzard could offer that would help you in your very specific and unique situation.

[Tadkins]

Let me ask you something - how do you think it feels when someone obtains 226 ilvl gear?

Probably ecstatic, knowing there's no one out there to match them but the few other 226s out there, and worst case scenario it's an even fight for them. They can go off and use people like me as a toilet pretty easily.

My "alt" raid team is a shambles - its honestly a disgrace - its 50% male/female, we have known each other since TBC, and our skill levels range from "why the fuck are you not doing mythic?" to "listen mate, LFR is THAT way" - but overall it balances out to "heroic feels fine". We had a 65yo bloke in there (RIP) couple of middle age ladies with adult kids, a teenager who spoke ZERO English (we had to communicate through icons - we had a system - if he needed to interupt/cc/kill something, we would mark him triangle, and mark the mob triangle - this worked for a decade), one who was so socially awkward he didnt speak on vent/disc for 7 years (now we cant shut the fucker up), and one who is pretty sure he belongs in mythic (in reality he would struggle in normal). These guilds exist - I used to run one, I am still in 2 of them, and I know of many others. Im not saying "stop being lame and join a guild", im just saying you seem hyper-focused on the negative aspects of the game and its community, and have made your mind up completely.

I just figured there had to be some communities out there for someone like me with confidence issues and social anxiety. Communities that are inclusive, friendly, willing to help, aren't judgmental.

That's literally all I've ever wanted. If I had that I probably wouldn't even be here, I'd probably be off happily learning M+ in a safe environment.

I genuinely believe there is absolutely no solution Blizzard could offer that would help you in your very specific and unique situation.

I've mentioned it multiple times.

-Go back to the system we had before and let me slowly earn the equivilent of 213 gear through the trickle of conquest points.
-Re-implement templates
-Implement ilvl brackets

This would help, this would make me feel like I'm not unwelcome here.

[Dazu]

So the toxicity and non-patience for failure I experienced in BfA (and I did play that all expansion) does not exist in Shadowlands? Because that is what I'm most afraid of.

Ive been doing random BGs on fresh alts because the 158+ honor gear is a great quick gear jump around crafted bits.
Honestly you will get killed by people massively overgeared and/or better skilled alot, your team might be full of window lickers aswell and chase the single resto druid round and round a bit of terrain all while his team caps out the map. The thing is, thats always happened, even in Vanilla. You will get the random idiot cussing everyone out, mostly they are either terrible themselves or just some elitist turd that thinks a random BG should be the place to get a full cooperating team of max ilvl players. Ignore them. Chances are they are just bad players and use their overgeared characters in lower content to feel a sense of power.

Also, I think faction matters here alot. Ive been mostly Alliance since Vanilla in the US/Oceanic realms. Recently moved to horde (last expansion fully). Horde are so much less toxic than Alliance. This goes for both PvP and PvE. Horde people might troll abit and make even crude jokes, but mostly they seem to not go too personal or aggressive. I had a useless tank in a M+ which made us fail badly, and even then the group just was like, this isnt going to work and dropped group. Such a difference to what I experienced in Legion - BFA on Alliance when I was subbed.

[Tadkins]

Ive been doing random BGs on fresh alts because the 158+ honor gear is a great quick gear jump around crafted bits.
Honestly you will get killed by people massively overgeared and/or better skilled alot, your team might be full of window lickers aswell and chase the single resto druid round and round a bit of terrain all while his team caps out the map. The thing is, thats always happened, even in Vanilla. You will get the random idiot cussing everyone out, mostly they are either terrible themselves or just some elitist turd that thinks a random BG should be the place to get a full cooperating team of max ilvl players. Ignore them. Chances are they are just bad players and use their overgeared characters in lower content to feel a sense of power.

Also, I think faction matters here alot. Ive been mostly Alliance since Vanilla in the US/Oceanic realms. Recently moved to horde (last expansion fully). Horde are so much less toxic than Alliance. This goes for both PvP and PvE. Horde people might troll abit and make even crude jokes, but mostly they seem to not go too personal or aggressive. I had a useless tank in a M+ which made us fail badly, and even then the group just was like, this isnt going to work and dropped group. Such a difference to what I experienced in Legion - BFA on Alliance when I was subbed.

Sub-200 ilvl I would expect to die a lot, definitely. It when I hit 200, and can't go any higher, and still end up dying a lot, is what I'm really worried about.

Funny thing is that I've been Horde for most of the game, since MoP, but if/when I came back I was genuinely considering going Alliance. I really wanted to turn my mage into a Void Elf (a real void elf, not a blood elf wannabe ). But the more and more I hear about it, the less and less I really actually want to come back. It's sad.

[Edward Wu]

Except that is straight false. Its not only not "every" game but actually "barely any" game.

Multiplayer games with loot like fortnite, pubg = false
Multiplayer shooter games like csgo = false
ARPGs = false (there are exceptions here)
Mobas = false
GTA like games = false
Single player games = false

And even in oldschool mmos gear was simply tradable which made that argument completely irrelevant as money could buy you power - as it rightfully should.

Except money had to be accrued so yes that rewarded greater effort = greater reward. You're making my argument for me. I know my wording was bad, but if you can read in-between the lines at all, you'll still understand I was talking about RPGs, not literally every game ever made in every genre ever.

Comparing WoW to Fortnite is just asinine.

That's a straight up lie. We can even look to games in the same genre to disprove it. FFXIV has barely any toxicity at all, not in game and not on forums. SWTOR, ESO are also pretty chill places.

WoW is the exception. WoW has more toxicity per capita than all the other MMORPGs combined.

FFXIV is your only example so saying games as if there are other cases is a straight up lie, actually. FFXIV goes to pretty absurd lengths to silence and restrict its players so I wouldn't ever use that as a positive example at all. There's a reason it's regarded mostly negatively as a singleplayer MMO by anyone who's not a fanatic of it. It's a straight up bad MMORPG, but it's still rising in popularity as a testament that there are a shitload of people who really don't care for playing an actual MMORPG.

[Tadkins]

FFXIV is your only example so saying games as if there are other cases is a straight up lie, actually. FFXIV goes to pretty absurd lengths to silence and restrict its players so I wouldn't ever use that as a positive example at all. There's a reason it's regarded mostly negatively as a singleplayer MMO by anyone who's not a fanatic of it. It's a straight up bad MMORPG, but it's still rising in popularity as a testament that there are a shitload of people who really don't care for playing an actual MMORPG.

If "real MMORPG" has to mean "cater only to the elite" and "unrelenting unrestricted toxicity spewing from every orifice" then hell, give me the fake MMORPG experience.

[Helcaraxe]

There were great days of WoW PvP, Pandaria. Then these kids grew up started crying. So we have Shadowlands. have you ever wondered why subs are going down like crazy and is going to be lowest of all times? Maybe because these new generation doesn't understand what is good for the game's future.

Imagine thinking like this in real life. You guys' life would be pathetic. Because Bill Gates (example) is so rich he could destroy all of you if he wanted. But on the contrary, most of you want more equality and rights. Don't be an ignorant hypocrite. When you give equal gear to people like in Pandaria, people can still show off with their achievements and ratings or mounts.

[Tadkins]

There were great days of WoW PvP, Pandaria. Then these kids grew up started crying. So we have Shadowlands. have you ever wondered why subs are going down like crazy and is going to be lowest of all times? Maybe because these new generation doesn't understand what is good for the game's future.

Imagine thinking like this in real life. You guys' life would be pathetic. Because Bill Gates (example) is so rich he could destroy all of you if he wanted. But on the contrary, most of you want more equality and rights. Don't be an ignorant hypocrite. When you give equal gear to people like in Pandaria, people can still show off with their achievements and ratings or mounts.

MoP was truly one of the greatest expansions. There was something for everyone.

[Echocho]

MoP was truly one of the greatest expansions. There was something for everyone.

The high end community don't want something for everyone. They want everything for themselves and nothing for everyone else. Thankfully there are better MMORPGs out there that does the RPG part much better and caters to the majority instead the vocal toxic minority. I doubt WoW and its community will ever change so it's probably best to do what so many others have already done, leave.

[Edward Wu]

If "real MMORPG" has to mean "cater only to the elite" and "unrelenting unrestricted toxicity spewing from every orifice" then hell, give me the fake MMORPG experience.

"real" MMORPG means not having the lionshare of your content be singleplayer. Pretty objective, no?